What is the DC: Barbarossa of the Western front?

[pfig]

Hey,

I love DC: Barbarossa, but the Eastern has never been my favourite theatre. I also love CM:BN, but love chits more (and am more inclined to play squads as in the latter than divisions as in the former), and am a big fan of Order of Battle: Pacific, but it's on the other side of the world. Other games I find enjoyable are CC: Gateway to Caen and Command Ops 2, but my old age isn't suited for RTS. Unfortunately Tigers on the hunt doesn't have walls or bocage, so it's a no-go for me.

I'm fairly new to PC wargaming, so am at a bit of a loss... Ideally I'd like a CM:BN with the looks of Tigers on the hunt or a turn-based CO2. I'm inclined to buy Squad Battles: Eagles Strike, do you reckon that would fit the bill? And what other games should I be looking into, focused on the Western front (in particular the landings and operations in Normandy)?

Cheers!

P.S. Panzer Corps looks shiny, but I'd rather have chits :)

[undercovergeek]

get choppers round this

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/281/details/Battles.In.Normandy

[JasonPratt]

Edited to add: nice to see Geek independently confirming the BIN recommendation!  8)


I don't know of any wargame that has the political setups of DC3:Barbie. DC3 is of course a sequel of DC1, which was about the initial Nazi Blitzkrieg. But not about Fortress Europa generally nor Normandy in particular.

Nothing at the strategic level of DC3 (or the other DC games) will have walls and bocage, I expect -- although if anything that scale did simulate it, perhaps Gary Grigsby's War in the West? But even if a game did, it would be totally abstracted and under the hood, not something you'd be messing with.

When a closer operational scale is dialed in, there are some options closer to the strategic operational scale of Command Ops (which while they have plenty of Fortress Europa campaigns and missions, I don't think have Normandy or post-Normandy yet. The earliest in that area would be Market-Garden for them.) I don't think they'll have walls per se, but scale might be "grainy" enough to feature bocage in some hexes. I'm thinking specifically of SSG's Battles In Normandy (part of their "Decisive Battles" line, which eventually became something else as they evolved it.) Even there, though, I'm not sure it has the level of bocage you're after. Also it's a rather older game, and I don't know how it works on modern operating systems. Matrix has a bad habit of blithely selling problematically old software without warning, so I recommend asking around. But it features a bunch of scenarios and two grand campaigns from D-Day to Cobra and from Cobra to Falaise.

(I'm honestly getting a bit excited to play it right now.  :D Their maps are demonstrably an acquired taste -- some people can't stand them -- but I think they're gorgeous.)


For smaller scale that's kind of like Panzer General but not, and should feature a lot more walls and bocage (depending on the scenario or campaign of course), I will recommend as always Tiller's (actually Talonsoft's) Campaign Series, also available from Matrix with some updates from the original TS products. You'll be getting a lot more than that, of course -- the scenario and campaign selection in that set is ludicrously huge, and I fully expect modders have added to it -- but it features the fine level of detail you're after. (And if I recall correctly, the option to play with chit counters on a 2D board. Certainly the recent spiritual sequel for early-modern mideastern wars does!)

Again, anything with walls and bocage simply isn't going to play like the giant operational strategy of DC3:Barbarossa; nor will anything with walls and bocage feature the special political concepts of that level of operation. But you might get something a little like such a mix with the aforementioned "Battles in Normandy".

Hope that's helpful.  O0

[pfig]

Thanks, will have a look, SSG is a name even I recognise :) (however, Matrix's prices are utterly ridiculous)

[pfig]

Thank you for the long post, Jason!

I guess I didn't explain myself well enough: I'm definitely more of a squad-level gamer, but DC:B just blew me away despite being at the division level.

[pfig]

Ah, the title of the post makes very little sense after reading what I wrote again.

What I meant was "what's a turn-based squad-level game for the Western front, preferably with Normandy and using chits, that's as good as DC:B?"

[panzerde]

You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy. This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).


If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.

[pfig]

Thanks! I've just bumped into CAOS, via spelk / sugarfreegamer.com:

http://www.ns2games.com/

[Hofstadter]

Try gary grigsbys war in the west. You can check out some videos in the link of my signature.

It can be sectioned into three major parts, the battles into italy, the battle of normandy, the slow grind towards berlin. You can start and end the game at any of those points.

However the game is VERY complicated, and is considered to have one of the largest, if not THE largest learning curve of wargames. However it is divisional level

[Zulu1966]

Thanks! I've just bumped into CAOS, via spelk / sugarfreegamer.com:

http://www.ns2games.com/

Thanks for this - not even heard of it before ... need to take a look at this one ...

[Zulu1966]

You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy. This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).


If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.

I would second the new Normandy title from Tiller - this is very good and the platoon / company scale gives you larger battles but still with all the tactical elements.
I would say if Normandy and counters are your interest - this would definitely go on your list.

[pfig]

You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy. This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).


If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.

I would second the new Normandy title from Tiller - this is very good and the platoon / company scale gives you larger battles but still with all the tactical elements.
I would say if Normandy and counters are your interest - this would definitely go on your list.

Thank you all - I actually picked up their Eagles Strike last night, and had a blast after dinner. As a bonus, it runs perfectly well under Wine on my Mac laptop - I was going to get Battles of Normandy and Normandy '44 (what JTS call Panzer Campaigns Normandy) just to say thank you for this, glad you're both recommending them.

Cheers!

[pfig]

Try gary grigsbys war in the west. You can check out some videos in the link of my signature.

It can be sectioned into three major parts, the battles into italy, the battle of normandy, the slow grind towards berlin. You can start and end the game at any of those points.

However the game is VERY complicated, and is considered to have one of the largest, if not THE largest learning curve of wargames. However it is divisional level

Thanks! This is definitely on my list, in a couple of years :)

[Strela]

You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy. This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).


If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.

I would second the new Normandy title from Tiller - this is very good and the platoon / company scale gives you larger battles but still with all the tactical elements.
I would say if Normandy and counters are your interest - this would definitely go on your list.

Thank you all - I actually picked up their Eagles Strike last night, and had a blast after dinner. As a bonus, it runs perfectly well under Wine on my Mac laptop - I was going to get Battles of Normandy and Normandy '44 (what JTS call Panzer Campaigns Normandy) just to say thank you for this, glad you're both recommending them.

Cheers!

As the lead designer on Tiller's Panzer Battles of Normandy, thanks for considering our title.

We've been fortunate it's been so well received and recommended by others.

David

[Boggit]

We've been fortunate it's been so well received and recommended by others.

Fortunate be damned. You did a bloody good job with it, which is why it has been well received and recommended. O0

What I want to know is how far a campaign game for the Kursk game is faring? You mooted it a while back as something that was being looked into. Playing the battles individually loses the continuity of having a campaign game, making it all feel like isolated actions, which of course it wasn't. Pretty please... :)