TWILIGHT STRUGGLE (closed beta) activating soon on Steam

[bayonetbrant]

There are some connections to the COIN series (card assisted counterinsurgency games), although obviously those will be much more tactical: Fire In The Lake (Vietnam); Andean Abyss; Cuba Libre; and A Distant Plain (Afghanistan) -- those were developed by the same guy who adapted the TS system into Labyrinth.

TS wasn't adapted into Labyrinth.  Volko's played TS, but other than cards and a box-and-point map, there's not a lot of similarities.

Also, the COIN games are perhaps "more tactical" than TS, but still completely not tactical at all.  There's no specific engagements and no specific outcomes of those engagements anywhere.  There's no specific units, only 'forces' and 'bases'.  There are broad actions, but no dedicated operational plans, even.

AA was a pure Volko creation.  Every one after that he either co-designed (FITL, ADP), or handed the reins over completely to someone else (LoD).

[Ubercat]

The only similarity between TS and CD war games like WtP and Hannibal:RvC is that you can play the cards for Ops or the event. What the Ops are actually used for is vastly different between TS and the other games JP named.

[Nefaro]

There's at least one more game (other than Labyrinth) using a modified version of this system, although I don't recall offhand what it is... {checking} Oh right, Dawn of Freedom, which is essentially the final year (1989) of this game.

We the People and Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage use a similar prior system, which TS was inspired by. For the People and Path to Glory are, I think, Civil War and WW1 versions of WTP and so use a similar system.

Here I Stand (early Reformation Europe) and its direct sequel The Virgin Queen (Elizabethan Europe, duh), have been described as having somewhat similar mechanics to TS.

There are some connections to the COIN series (card assisted counterinsurgency games), although obviously those will be much more tactical: Fire In The Lake (Vietnam); Andean Abyss; Cuba Libre; and A Distant Plain (Afghanistan) -- those were developed by the same guy who adapted the TS system into Labyrinth.

I think the Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage is very different from these, although some of it may have inspired this stuff. 

I'm not familiar with Hannibal's specifics but I did own it's sequel, Successors: The battles for Alexander's Empire many years ago (second edition?).  Wish they'd do another re-release of that one, with all the errata done.


Would say the COIN stuff is the closest, but still different.

[Philippe]

The Successors is one of my all-time favorite boardgames.

My only complaint with it is that the vanilla game forces you to play alternate history by keeping alive an obscure historical figure who should have died on the first turn.

Nothing that a few house rules can't fix (and I've always played using them).

I've always been more interested in the period covered by the middle and the end of the game, the attempt by Antigonus and his son Demetrius to claim Alexander's empire, and the struggle with the coalition that culminated in the battle of Issus.

To get that to play out in an historical fashion you would also need house rules to make Perdiccas very likely to attack anyone who steals Alexander's body, but to almost guarantee a mutiny if any of Perdiccas' troops get killed in the process (historically Perdiccas was murdered during a mutiny triggered by an unsuccesful attempt to force a crossing of the Nile after Ptolemy hijacked Alexander's funeral cortege).  This would lead you into the settlement of Triparadeisos (a bit like a Hellenistic treaty of Versailles), which was the start of the second phase of the wars of the successors.

What you do is make Perdiccas suffer a huge loss of legitimacy if he doesn't punish the body theif.  The situation is interesting because Perdiccas gets to be enormously powerful (Eumenes is one of his generals) but his army is extremely brittle because it freaks out if it takes any losses.

Eumenes of Cardia is my favorite successor.  He couldn't succeed to the throne because he wasn't Macedonian, and nobody trusted him because he was too Greek and too smart.

[Nefaro]

The Successors is one of my all-time favorite boardgames.

My only complaint with it is that the vanilla game forces you to play alternate history by keeping alive an obscure historical figure who should have died on the first turn.

Nothing that a few house rules can't fix (and I've always played using them).

I've always been more interested in the period covered by the middle and the end of the game, the attempt by Antigonus and his son Demetrius to claim Alexander's empire, and the struggle with the coalition that culminated in the battle of Issus.

To get that to play out in an historical fashion you would also need house rules to make Perdiccas very likely to attack anyone who steals Alexander's body, but to almost guarantee a mutiny if any of Perdiccas' troops get killed in the process (historically Perdiccas was murdered during a mutiny triggered by an unsuccesful attempt to force a crossing of the Nile after Ptolemy hijacked Alexander's funeral cortege).  This would lead you into the settlement of Triparadeisos (a bit like a Hellenistic treaty of Versailles), which was the start of the second phase of the wars of the successors.

I read Ghost on the Throne last year, and it left me hungry for yet more of the Diadochoi craziness.  Because it seemed to end abruptly, with some of the latter stories of the initial "phase" just getting shorter and more vague.  Like the writer or publisher had a deadline or had already passed the bits he wanted to cover.   

It also made me realize how much I missed that Successors game.  I recall it being quite pretty for the time (the 90s?).  The 3rd edition probably looked even better (and had less errata I hope).  I'm also more knowledgeable about the period than back then, so making sense of what the system was trying to model should be easier.

After looking for a used copy of the 3rd Edition last year, and seeing the going price, I decided against it.  :o   

...


Back on topic, I've been waffling about picking up Twilight Struggle right now.  I'll surely get it sometime, but knowing that the AI still has work left to be done makes me want to wait.  Especially since I have so many games that I'm torn on which to play right now.

[Philippe]

I owned the Avalon Hill first edition (lost in a move) and I picked up the third edition a couple of years ago.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't direct from GMT, and I probably found it on Amazon rather than through Ebay.

Prices on Amazon can fluctuate wildly for this kind of thing.  In the meantime there's always Vassal, though you'll lose the tactile quality of a high production value boardgame.

And Successors really shouldn't be played solitaire.

[Ian C]

Bought. Running great. Like it.
Does anyone know which of the board game rules are the best to download? (assuming the PC game is anything like the board game) 2nd Ed or Deluxe? Thanks.

[Pinetree]

Get the 2015 edition rules. You'll find them here: Twilight Struggle page at GMT

[Pinetree]

You can also download the monster strategy guide here: Twilight Strategy

[Ian C]

Get the 2015 edition rules. You'll find them here: Twilight Struggle page at GMT

Many thanks!

[JasonPratt]

Barth's side of our game (or at least his thread for it -- I haven't read it yet, of course) has now started here.

Don't forget B_C's single player AAR running on the front page. There's no group tag for them yet (two parts so far), so you'll have to scroll down through the AAR group to find them: http://grogheads.com/?cat=6

[BanzaiCat]

You can also download the monster strategy guide here: Twilight Strategy

Thanks for posting that link, Pinetree.

Great site; I should have thought of posting it as I've been over there a few times over the years. The PDF, though, I didn't know about. The site apparently collected all their info and put it into one PDF, which is a free download, though they do ask for a donation if possible.

[BanzaiCat]

Don't forget B_C's single player AAR running on the front page. There's no group tag for them yet (two parts so far), so you'll have to scroll down through the AAR group to find them: http://grogheads.com/?cat=6

Thanks for the plug, JP. I hope I can un-screw my game so it lasts longer than Turn 2. I haven't had time to continue it but I will hopefully be able to on Saturday.

[RedArgo]

I may have missed it, but has there been any word of release for Android?  I haven't received anything from my kickstarter pledge that says anything about the Android version.  Thanks.

[JasonPratt]

I feel pretty sure I recall both Android and iOS versions on the way; but I've slept several times since backing the Kickstarter.