A hundredth anniversary of the Battle of Jutland

PAK · May 30, 2016, 03:12:42 PM

An anniversary of this clash of castles of steel is upon us. So what do You recommend? Steam and Iron or John Tiller's Jutland? In SAI You can play entire First World War at sea, but in terms of tactical gameplay, which game You appreciate more?
I was suggested by this RPS article https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/05/27/the-flare-path-in-brine/

Philippe · May 30, 2016, 04:17:04 PM

Steam and Iron.

PAK · May 30, 2016, 04:52:41 PM

Hm, I forgot to refine my question with "AND WHY?"

spelk · May 30, 2016, 06:15:20 PM

If you can handle Herman's video AAR's then see Jutland in Steam and Iron

mirth · May 30, 2016, 06:21:17 PM

Perfect for napping

JudgeDredd · May 31, 2016, 12:05:26 AM

not again lads >:(

SAI looks very interesting. I watched a BBC programme last week where the grandson (great grandson??) of Jellicoe went aboard a survey ship which mapped the locations of the sunken ships. It also suggested (nae, proved?) that Jellicoe was a scapegoat with details of the battle and manoeuvres being doctored by Beatty.

Interesting stuff.

I also recorded a program on Sunday on the BBC which I intend to watch and I now also want to get a book on the subject.

We did The Battle of Jutland in primary school iirc as a project...and I found the battle fascinating back then...even though it was ultimately a damp squib.

Sir Slash · May 31, 2016, 10:26:47 AM

I played both games and love the detail of Tiller's work but it's pretty much unmanageable as a game. SAI Is my preferred choice. It's not pretty but it works really well.

Nefaro · May 31, 2016, 10:45:48 AM

RE: Jutland

If you absolutely must see it portrayed in 3D, then go with Tiller's Jutland. It's a good game despite what I think are a couple issues in the portrayal, such as Destroyers being hit too easily by the big guns at range. The graphics aren't amazing but they obviously beat out SAI.

The UI in Jutland is also difficult to get used to. Giving orders in the 3D view has a bit of a learning curve. It is easier to assign orders on the mini-map, and specifically with it zoomed full screen. But the mini-map shows little info and looks terrible to boot. Trade-off.

You must also use their game delivery client. Pretty much like Steam, but there is no activation/deactivation nonsense to deal with, on the game, anymore. I also don't think there has been much support for it the past few years, the original DRM decision having hurt it's reputation permanently and the developers going silent for many months at a time. Last I checked, there was some odd issue with the Campaign mode, but I think it may have been fixed (eventually?).

RE: Steam & Iron

If you don't mind the old Harpoon Classic simplistic 2D look, and want more content, then SAI is for you. You're not going to see shell splashes and damaged ship hulls, as in Jutland, but there is much more variety to be had and the UI is easier to learn. The learning curve, overall, is easier.

More nations, more ships, and easier/faster to use.

IIRC, you have to buy the campaign expansion with the original SAI, to get the dynamic campaign system. Which is likely something you will want to do.

Pick this one if you want to prove you're not a "Graphics Whore", and would prefer more toys in the toy box.

....

I think they both have their advantages & disadvantages.

They also both model an issue the RN had at the time, based upon an older theory. I have a bit of an issue with how that problem is portrayed in the mechanics. The numbers showed that the excessively high rate of magazine detonations, at the Battle Of Jutland, was extremely bad ...for the British Battlecruisers. The actual statistics of Battleship detonation rates were practically identical to those of the German Battleships. Instead of applying the higher detonation rates to just the British BCs, it has been applied across the whole range of such larger caliber gunned British warships (inc. the BBs) in both games. Last versions I played, you could only toggle that effect on/off in Tiller's Jutland game. Although it's still a blanket effect there, so it would also turn it on/off for the Battlecruisers at the same time. Same option available for earlier ineffective AP in Jutland. You couldn't toggle that in SAI, unless it was added in a later patch version I've not played.

Just my .02 on that specific part of the subject. Many don't want to get too far into such analytical/simulation details, so it's not usually on the radar.

magnus · May 31, 2016, 06:09:25 PM

I think you are confusing HPS's Jutland with the SES Jutland.

SES was the one with the DRM and is 3D.

HPS also has a Jutland game.

Nefaro · May 31, 2016, 06:15:31 PM

Quote from: magnus on May 31, 2016, 06:09:25 PM
I think you are confusing HPS's Jutland with the SES Jutland.

SES was the one with the DRM and is 3D.

HPS also has a Jutland game.

Yes, I was.

Never really considered the HPS version. Looked like it was jammed into that old Tiller engine, instead of being made for WWI naval battles from scratch. With the available alternatives, I never got it.

Staggerwing · May 31, 2016, 07:30:50 PM

IIRC, HPS' Jutland (and Tushima and Midway) use a very different game engine from the better known Tiller turn-based games. They may share some visual UI attributes but, hey- it's John Tiller! :)

Toonces · May 31, 2016, 07:42:57 PM

I actually tried to install the SES Jutland game a few weeks ago in celebration of the anniversary.

As encouraged on their website, I tried to run the demo first, just to be sure it worked on my system.

Short version: even after installing their BS DRM system, I had to go to an offsite-website to download the demo- not hosted on SES's website- and then when I installed it, after downloading the patches as required in the readme the game wouldn't run without a serial key.

I dicked around with this for a couple of hours before I decided that it was too much trouble to be arsed with it. So, even after submitting, in principle, to their ridiculous DRM scheme, they still lost a sale. Hell of a way to run a business.

mirth · May 31, 2016, 07:49:54 PM

I think SES is essentially defunct now. The forums are dead and I don't think there's been any updates or new product for a long time.

Sir Slash · May 31, 2016, 10:00:08 PM

Yes, the Jutland I referred to in my earlier post was in fact the SES version not Tiller's game. Norm Kroger instead I think. Beautiful game but very hard to manage a Fleet sized battle. The smaller fights were good however. Product Support was probably the worst ever in a game. And I paid good money for it too. >:(

panzerde · June 01, 2016, 05:38:49 PM

At the risk of being "me too" the SES game is fun in small engagements but tough with something the size of Jutland. As a company, they're a disaster.

SAI is simply a great game. I actually like the look of it. Seeing capital ship tracks on the map after the battle is a great feature. SAI also does a nice job of illustrating some of the problems of fleet command of the era. Russo-Japanese War is a great one, too.

The Tiller naval games are very different from the ground combat games. For one, they're real time with pause, and not turn-based. Like other Tiller games, they really do best in H2H play.