Any Age of Wonders 3 Experts?

[Boggit]

I think what would have been a much better solution is to have given any type of unit the ability to 'train' up to higher tiers, rather than limit it to just one specific unit type. This is one reason why I keep going back to Warlock II as it handles unit development in a far better way.

I like that idea. O0 They do it already with the irregulars, but it might be a nice feature for tier3 units to have that ability.

[Gusington]

It's a good game I just can't beat it :/

[Nefaro]

Wow, I'm surprised at all of the negative comments. I haven't played AoW3 in quite a while but most of what I read elsewhere is very positive. It's 75% off at GoG right now, certain worth it at that price.

I've enjoyed it and wouldn't hesitate to do so again, when the right mood took me.  There really doesn't seem to be many dual-layer grand strategy + tactical games which are both turn-based (and hexes!) with this kind of depth.

While the rush for higher-tier units is certainly a thing, it's not unusual in the few double-layer grand strategy games like this.  I get the same impression from some of the Total War games, for example.

Bob had the right idea; that they should've regulated the speed at which units advanced tiers by required "level-ups" from experienced units or some other such mechanics, along with unlocking them via buildings & conquest of same.


Wished they would've continued adding some more factions and adjusting/adding mechanics to tweak such things.  Enjoyed the additions in the DLC, but still felt there was more needed.

[SikBok]

Hi everyone,


I'm a developer at Triumph Studios - really, honestly - and worked on AoW2, AoW:SM and AoW3, so I guess that qualifies me as an expert ; )>

Decided to join the discuission here because one of your fellow grogheads posted on the steam forums. I've seen several discussion on the subject of 'Tier 4 spam', so I hope I can contribute here.

We've addressed 'Tier 4 spam' in a patch not too long after launch. Please note that this was part of a general patch, so you don't need to get the DLC or anything like that to get this fix.
Also, the head start the AI gets on campaign maps might aggrivate the issue. To anyone that only played at launch or is playing mainly campaign, I'd like to suggest giving the game another go and play on a randomly generated map that's not too large.

The 'Tier 4 spam' argument also appears to be symptomatic of two things: falling behind economically & AoW3s deep combat system.
Unlike other games - e.g. Civ5 - AoW3 is a wargame. Anyone that fall behind economically will be in trouble. There are still ways to make a comeback - be really good at tactical combat or strategic map manouvering - but if the difference is too big that'll become very hard to pull off. So - like someone suggested on the Steam discussion - if you save the game and surrender you'll see some graphs. If you are far behind the AI opponents it could be economy - not tier 4 units - that have lost you the match.
Also, winning from an enemy that fields tier 4 units is completely feasible. Every race/class combination has something in their arsanal to tackle higher tier units. That might require a bit of a think, but it gets easier with more experience. Most tier 4 units - especially after the patch - don't do well when massed, so taking those out is even easier than facing one in a well balanced army.

I hope these tips and tricks help people here enjoy the game more.

If you want to know more I'd advice having a look at the AoW forums - http://aow.triumph.net/forums/ - or the AoW3 forum on steam - http://steamcommunity.com/app/226840/discussions/0/ - which have topics going into great detail on how to deal with tier 4 units effectively.

[Greybriar]

Thanks for the tips, SikBok. O0

Welcome to the GrogHeads Forum.

[Nefaro]

Hi everyone,


I'm a developer at Triumph Studios - really, honestly - and worked on AoW2, AoW:SM and AoW3, so I guess that qualifies me as an expert ; )>

Decided to join the discuission here because one of your fellow grogheads posted on the steam forums. I've seen several discussion on the subject of 'Tier 4 spam', so I hope I can contribute here.

We've addressed 'Tier 4 spam' in a patch not too long after launch. Please note that this was part of a general patch, so you don't need to get the DLC or anything like that to get this fix.
Also, the head start the AI gets on campaign maps might aggrivate the issue. To anyone that only played at launch or is playing mainly campaign, I'd like to suggest giving the game another go and play on a randomly generated map that's not too large.

The 'Tier 4 spam' argument also appears to be symptomatic of two things: falling behind economically & AoW3s deep combat system.
Unlike other games - e.g. Civ5 - AoW3 is a wargame. Anyone that fall behind economically will be in trouble. There are still ways to make a comeback - be really good at tactical combat or strategic map manouvering - but if the difference is too big that'll become very hard to pull off. So - like someone suggested on the Steam discussion - if you save the game and surrender you'll see some graphs. If you are far behind the AI opponents it could be economy - not tier 4 units - that have lost you the match.
Also, winning from an enemy that fields tier 4 units is completely feasible. Every race/class combination has something in their arsanal to tackle higher tier units. That might require a bit of a think, but it gets easier with more experience. Most tier 4 units - especially after the patch - don't do well when massed, so taking those out is even easier than facing one in a well balanced army.

I hope these tips and tricks help people here enjoy the game more.

If you want to know more I'd advice having a look at the AoW forums - http://aow.triumph.net/forums/ - or the AoW3 forum on steam - http://steamcommunity.com/app/226840/discussions/0/ - which have topics going into great detail on how to deal with tier 4 units effectively.

Thanks for posting this insight.   O0

[SikBok]

Thanks for the tips, SikBok. O0

Welcome to the GrogHeads Forum.

Thanks for posting this insight.   O0

You're welcome!
And thanks for the welcome : )>

Not sure I'll frequent the forums - so many forums - but I can be summoned by a deeplink to a topic from the AoW3 forum on Steam : D>

[airboy]

Thanks for the insight.

I played AoW3 quite a bit on random maps and could win most of the time.  But I pay very close attention to the economy.  Have not played any of the campaigns.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

Same. I can usually win on a randomized map but the scripted campaigns kick my ass hard.

[Huw the Poo]

Thanks SikBok, I will revisit the game after reading your comments.

While you're here, I will just add that Shadow Magic is one of the greatest games of all time. :)

[Boggit]

Hi everyone,


I'm a developer at Triumph Studios - really, honestly - and worked on AoW2, AoW:SM and AoW3, so I guess that qualifies me as an expert ; )>

Decided to join the discuission here because one of your fellow grogheads posted on the steam forums. I've seen several discussion on the subject of 'Tier 4 spam', so I hope I can contribute here.

Heh, that will be me. Welcome to Grogheads, and thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to address this. O0

We've addressed 'Tier 4 spam' in a patch not too long after launch. Please note that this was part of a general patch, so you don't need to get the DLC or anything like that to get this fix.
Also, the head start the AI gets on campaign maps might aggrivate the issue. To anyone that only played at launch or is playing mainly campaign, I'd like to suggest giving the game another go and play on a randomly generated map that's not too large.

The 'Tier 4 spam' argument also appears to be symptomatic of two things: falling behind economically & AoW3s deep combat system.
Unlike other games - e.g. Civ5 - AoW3 is a wargame. Anyone that fall behind economically will be in trouble. There are still ways to make a comeback - be really good at tactical combat or strategic map manouvering - but if the difference is too big that'll become very hard to pull off. So - like someone suggested on the Steam discussion - if you save the game and surrender you'll see some graphs. If you are far behind the AI opponents it could be economy - not tier 4 units - that have lost you the match.
Also, winning from an enemy that fields tier 4 units is completely feasible. Every race/class combination has something in their arsanal to tackle higher tier units. That might require a bit of a think, but it gets easier with more experience. Most tier 4 units - especially after the patch - don't do well when massed, so taking those out is even easier than facing one in a well balanced army.

I hope these tips and tricks help people here enjoy the game more.

If you want to know more I'd advice having a look at the AoW forums - http://aow.triumph.net/forums/ - or the AoW3 forum on steam - http://steamcommunity.com/app/226840/discussions/0/ - which have topics going into great detail on how to deal with tier 4 units effectively.

I'm concerned about the economic and battle success arguments. Usually by turn 90 I have 4 or 5 cities and am churning out mainly t1, t2 and some t3 units. I play on Lord difficulty and win the vast majority of my battles. I then get a dread siege or similar cast on my cities and 2-3 stacks of mainly t4 units (often with that blasted sea lord, who can rain lightning on all my units meaning that they die easily against the other t4's). Unfortunately, it isn't just 1 sea lord but maybe 6 or 7 that turn up, so my forces don't survive the encounter. Sadly my last game had my otherwise successful Orc Warlord at the capital when they attacked. At turn 93, which for the most part had been very successful  - game over.

Wouldn't it be better to spam out upgradeable t1's/t2's as Bob O0 suggests so that you face swarms of crappy t1/2 troops backed up by some powerful t3/4's, rather than lots of t4's as "standard" AI troops. For me it is a bit of a game killer, as I have been combining city growth with troops and that all takes time to build up.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Heya,

Also followed Boggit here from the Steam forum. This has been my favourite game for the past couple of years, so I should have some good tips for you.

I'm concerned about the economic and battle success arguments. Usually by turn 90 I have 4 or 5 cities and am churning out mainly t1, t2 and some t3 units. I play on Lord difficulty and win the vast majority of my battles.

This is definitely the issue. 4 or 5 cities? Wow... that is way, way too few.

One issue with learning this game is that you can sometimes think you're doing well, when you're really not. Like I suggested on the steam forums: Save the game, surrender and check the graphs you see, particularly those for Domain and Military scores. You'll note that you're probably WAY behind the AI.

Or alternately, use cheats to see what's happening.  :) Pressing ctrl-alt-c and typing "barentz" lets you see the entire map. You can then compare your city count to that of the AI and see how well you're actually doing.

I checked a few of my large/extra large maps that lasted a long time. In one, I had 20 cities by turn 90. In another, 30 cities. And even with those 30 cities, the stronger AI players had considerably bigger armies than I did. (Slightly smaller empires, but those games were on Emperor level AI and those get rather large income/production bonuses, so the player needs more cities to compete. But on lower difficulty levels this is not the case.)

By turn 90, tier one units are pretty much obsolete except as city garrisons. There are exceptions, of course. (Dreadnoughts always need engineers, to name one. And Elven Hunters may be tier 1, but they are great units.) Tier 2 units stay very useful, though, particularly if you can get them some nice upgrades. (The DLCs add options for this.) Tier 3 units will be the main muscle for most classes, with tier 4 units sprinkled in as support/heavy hitters. This goes for the player and the AI.

Again, to take that game where I had 30 cities by turn 90: in it, I was producing a stack of upgraded tier 2-3 warlord units every 2 turns, and a stack of tier 4 manticore riders every 5 turns. I could have produced more, but I was running into upkeep troubles, and besides I'd rather produce elite units from my best cities if I get the chance.

If you're winning your battles against the neutrals and the AI with so few cities until turn 90, you're probably quite good at tactical battles. If so, all you need to do is learn to expand faster. Build more cities, build more armies, build higher tier units.

Some important tips for this game are:

Explore as much as you can.
In the early game, you should be exploring in 2-3 directions every turn. Otherwise, you won't figure out which way you need to expand. Also, exploring lets you meet neutral cities that might join you (in return for payment or a quest) and you can find unguarded heaps of gold and mana that will help keep your early game economy afloat.

Fight battles every turn.
In the early game, you should be fighting at least 1 battle every turn with your leader, 1st hero and your main stack. Preferably a more than 1 battle. Maybe just to clear a mine or mana node, or to explore a ruin. If there's nothing in reach, you should at least be moving towards something else you want to fight.

By the mid-game (turn 20, say) you should have 2 or 3 stacks running around in different directions, preferably let by heroes, and all fighting at least one battle every other turn. Not only does this mean you get more stuff and clear more territory to claim, but your troops and heroes will be getting XP and become much stronger.

Try to find some healers
The only problem with fighting so much is that if you take too much damage, you might need time to heal. Therefore, its' easier to play a class/race with access to healing early on, until you get good enough at tactical battles not to take much damage. Human Priests are particularly good at this. So is the Theocrat class. If you don't have healers of your own, try to hire a Theocrat or Archdruid hero, and give them healing abilities on levelup. (Bestow Iron Heart, Nourishing Meal.)

You'll probably take casualties, but can also replenish them by clearing dungeons, farms and springs of life. Many heroes also get abilities that let you charm/convert enemy units, which can help. And finally, many classes can just summon extra units to the front lines. All this helps to keep your armies moving.

Claim all the territory you can.
One of the first things I do in a new game is get a Builder. This nifty unit then follows my main army, building roads and plunking down forts on the mines and trading posts I clear. Settlers are expensive and take time to build. 1 builder can build as many forts as you like. This really helps the economy.

Later on, you should be building settlers regularly and turn those forts into cities. By turn 20 you should have at least 4-5 cities. You don't need to build settlers for all of those, though, as you can also get neutral cities to join you.

Boost your economy with Free Stuff
As you've noticed, it takes a lot of time to build up a city and produce units at the same time. Gold is scarce, construction is slow early on.

The solution is treasure sites. All those battles you're fighting give you rewards. You can sell those rewards for extra gold. Or you can use the free units you get from dungeons or springs of life to reinforce your army. Research sites are very good to clear: early on, you can get 5 or 6 turns of research from a Vault of Knowledge. This really boosts your growth.

Pay attention to Happiness
The happiness mechanic, which is easy to overlook, is actually very, very important. A Cheerful city will produce 50% more of everything. That's gold, mana, research, growth and production. Meanwhile, at the lowest happiness level, everything gets halved and the city rebels. So, boost happiness with spells, buildings and terrain. The Terraform spell in particular lets you change terrain to your favoured type without wasting casting points.

Never waste a turn.
This is the most important principle to bear in mind. In a game of Civ, a single turn is unimportant and a game lasts hundreds of turns. You might move a scout, or skip 10 turns to finish a building.

Not so in AoW. Each turn is a substantial chunk of the game. Most games aren't supposed to last much more than 50 turns on small maps, 70 on medium, 100 on large. If you skip a turn without doing anything, you're falling behind. Each turn should be filled with as many activities as you can fit in.

On the downside, this is more challenging. You're always in a race. On the plus side, I've yet to be bored with a game of AoW3. There's always something to explore, something to fight or something to discover.

Anyway, I hope that helps. The playing style of AoW takes some getting used to, but it's a great game, and the sheer variety of units means the battles never get old.

[Gusington]

Welcome. I can barely notice the stick in you.

And I agree exploration is vitally important in AoW3.

[Boggit]

Thanks Iguana! O0

Firstly, welcome to Grogheads, and second that is some terrific advice, which I hope you'll copy and paste into a guide on the Steam community so more people can benefit from it.

I've been playing at Lord level, and never had too many cities, but still would win regularly until the tier 4 spam storm. I've also been using the Attrition and Supply mod, which means you have to be careful of losses on a distant expedition. I don't suppose that helped me much given what you advise. I'm very grateful for your fulsome reply. O0

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Thanks Iguana! O0

Firstly, welcome to Grogheads, and second that is some terrific advice, which I hope you'll copy and paste into a guide on the Steam community so more people can benefit from it.

Thanks!

And that's a good idea, actually... I should dig through some other posts I wrote on Steam too. I could indeed make that into a guide.

And yeah, that mod probably does change things. I've looked at it, but never really played with it because I doubt the AI can handle it well, it favours summoners, and healers already have a big edge in the game as it is. It's a neat idea, though.