Kriegspiel

[panzerde]

Those of you who play Kriegspiel: do you use the rules from Too Fat Lardies or something else? I'm considering ordering the compilation CD. I know Cyrano and James suffer from this particular disease, are there others?

[Cyrano]

Heya chief.

Lardies for openers (1824 and all that), but definitely check out John Curry's stuff including the book on the Free Kriegsspiel: http://www.wargaming.co/

He's got a tonne of infro in his history of wargaming project that's worth getting.

The Lardies Ks is worth getting for the tables that replicate the dice alone, though.  Also, definitely get the pack of Bill Leeson's scenarios they have available.  These include a Red CoA set that you can use to create co-op KSs.

[panzerde]

I was thinking about getting the CD, but maybe it'd be better to get the printed stuff so I don't have to print it myself. Of course, this is all mostly moot, since there's about zero chance of finding anyone around here to play a game with!

[bob48]

;0

[James Sterrett]

1)  I would get the Lardies pack in order to support them.  Apparently the lost money on Kriegsspiel.

2) I run a *very* free Kriegsspiel that is informed by what's in the Reisswitz manual but is very very heavily optimized for Speed Uber Alles - this keeps players from getting bored, ideally keeps them time-stressed, and ensures things get done in a reasonable amount of time.

I use the distance scale for movement as-is.

I resolve combat either with a single die-roll (normally a d6), weighted as determined by me by the situation being resolved; or by having the reporting umpire from each side roll a die, with one side weighted as determined by me by the situation on the map.  The degree to which the result is skewed one way or another is the reference point for deciding what happens.  This is done *really really fast*.  When the reporting umpires are present, they do get an opportunity to put in an oar if I have forgotten something, which keeps the process fair.

If a player is personally involved in a combat, I give them a 1-pip DRM in their favor; and their umpires rolls 1d6; the player is wounded on a 4 or 5 and killed (out of the game for a bit) on a 6.  In addition, players who are in combat get no reports other than about the combat they are in, and cannot write orders or notes or whatnot - they are presumed to be a bit busy!

IMO - the core idea of Kriegsspiel is to put the players in a situation where they don't have enough information, don't have enough time, need to make decisions, and have to communicate those decisions to a human being - either the umpire or a subordinate - with the understanding that those orders may have to stand for a long period of time without the player's direct oversight.  Getting players in this situation rewards dealing well with uncertainty, clear visualization of the future state of the battlefield despite that uncertainty, and clear communication of mission and intent to accomplish the force's objectives despite the uncertainty and chaos of the battlefield.

Get that right, and the rest - accuracy, realism, etc - is tertiary; you will have placed the players in an amazingly intense  command environment experience that will indelibly etch itself in their minds.

It does take a lot of work from the umpiring staff, working like crazed weasels on speed, to make it work right.  But it's worth it!  :D

[panzerde]

Thanks James. Definitely going to order the stuff from Lardies.


What you describe is exactly the experience I'm after. Maybe there's an Indianapolis Kriegspiel Club I've just not discovered yet...

[bayonetbrant]

What you describe is exactly the experience I'm after. Maybe there's an Indianapolis Kriegspiel Club I've just not discovered yet...

Or, you need a road trip to KC for a game weekend.



Orrrrrrr...  we need to finally get GrogCon off the ground! :D

[panzerde]

Orrrrrrr...  we need to finally get GrogCon off the ground! :D

That sounds like the likely course. I don't see us doing Kriegspiel at Origins, so GrogCon is probably the only way something like this happens.


I have a pretty big basement...

[Cyrano]

One amazing thing (among so many) about the KS is how it challenges some of the hoariest assumptions in the world of table top Napoleonics.  To name only two:

1.  Steady infantry in line will repel cavalry that attacks it to the front.  it need not form square.  Oh, a sufficient volume of cavalry will eventually break the line, but not before taking fairly ghastly casualties and being bounced from melee a lot.  This is in part because...

1.a.  We misapprehend cavalry charges.  Just compare what the 1824 sets out as the way to manage a cavalry versus infantry charge and tell me how many times you've seen it done like that or even look like that on the table top.

2.  I argues, I've long thought dispositively, that fire was the lord of battle, not melee.

You force me to a 50th birthday KS...you really do...

[Pinetree]

Kriegspiels are a blast. I participated in one at my local wargaming club about 25 years ago. I still remember most of what happened.

[panzerde]

One amazing thing (among so many) about the KS is how it challenges some of the hoariest assumptions in the world of table top Napoleonics.  To name only two:

1.  Steady infantry in line will repel cavalry that attacks it to the front.  it need not form square.  Oh, a sufficient volume of cavalry will eventually break the line, but not before taking fairly ghastly casualties and being bounced from melee a lot.  This is in part because...

1.a.  We misapprehend cavalry charges.  Just compare what the 1824 sets out as the way to manage a cavalry versus infantry charge and tell me how many times you've seen it done like that or even look like that on the table top.

2.  I argues, I've long thought dispositively, that fire was the lord of battle, not melee.

You force me to a 50th birthday KS...you really do...

Certainly any time after about 1680, it's pretty tough to argue that 'arme blanche' is superior to fire combat. It seems to have seldom worked out for the French, and almost never against disciplined infantry. I think there's pretty good evidence that not only could steady infantry in line hold off cavalry, but that bayonet charges weren't very useful either.

Now, if the defending infantry breaks in the face of the charge, that's a different story.

Interestingly, the seemingly simple game Pike & Shot Campaigns seems to model this really well. It's not as apparent until you either have Swedish salvo firing infantry or you're playing something set 1680 or later, but it gets downright dangerous to melee, and cavalry doesn't do well frontally versus formed infantry of decent quality.

I'm just about to start Chandler's The Art of Warfare in the Age of Marlborough and I'm interested in his take on this. I can tell you that I just tried to adhere to French tactical doctrine of a rapid close and then melee versus Bob's Savoyards at Staffarda in 1690 in P&S, and it's likely to cost me the battle.

As for a 50th birthday Kriegspiel, I'm in.

[Bardolph]

Will join the others in recommending TFL's Kriegsspiel stuff, they did a nice job. Especially the maps. I also have a copy of Leeson's book. Several KS versions are available online through the Internet Archive or Google Books, or at least they used to be. The British Army 1896 version, Vernios' version, Livermore's American Kriegsspiel, Sayre's Map Maneuvers, Rules for the Conduct of the Wargame (1884), Totten's Strategos and others are all on my harddrive. Mostly for comparison to Reisswitz, haven't actually played any of the other versions. They're all great to mine info from regarding what folks at the time thought was possible.

http://kriegsspiel.org.uk/  is still out there, though I've never found that site as lively or useful as the old Yahoo group. (I saved a lot of the files that were on the Yahoo group and archived a lot of the messages but haven't figured out how to do anything with those archives). I do have a bunch of the old Kriegsspiel News in .doc format though.

Haven't been able to play much but Mr. Sterrett speaks truth. Keep it simple and keep it moving is more important than getting hung up on details and leaving your players hanging. I used a streamlined version I found on the KS News website (Army level Napoleonics) but found even that could be streamlined in the interest of keeping things moving. The first time we played the opposing forces never even got into combat other than a little cavalry skirmishing but the players all said they had a blast.

Also found it useful to read the OpCom rules and some of the other stuff from Jim Wallman and the Megagames folks. They aim for many many players per side but their rules have some neat ideas that could work with smaller groups.

KS is a thing I wish I could do far more often. Often wondered if it would work online. I know some of the KS News guys got into Scourge of War pretty heavily for a while, and I've often thought of trying to use VASSAL or something similar. Closest thing I've got is probably the old Tac Ops game from Battlefront.

Hope you can get some games in.

[besilarius]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hLvS403n_Q

Agree with Cyrano that infantry must be shaken in some way, for cavalry to have an advantage.
Here is a vintage Lumiere movie of a cavalry charge in 1896.  Without the smoke and terror of battle, it doesn't seem that bad.  Consider how far away they appear at the start, though, and how quickly they get up to the camera.
Our appreciation of time and distance is naturally based on our motorized world.  In those days, it was a horse, or you walked.

[James Sterrett]

An additional note -- I highly recommend getting the pieces from Tom Evans' Photon Cutter Studios:  http://www.photoncutterstudios.com/kriegsspiel.html

I've been using a set of pieces from Tom for around 10 years now and they have held up beautifully.

Note that the sets on offer are a starting point - Tom is happy to customize the parts list (and the parts themselves) so you get the bits and bobs you want.

[panzerde]

An additional note -- I highly recommend getting the pieces from Tom Evans' Photon Cutter Studios:  http://www.photoncutterstudios.com/kriegsspiel.html

I've been using a set of pieces from Tom for around 10 years now and they have held up beautifully.

Note that the sets on offer are a starting point - Tom is happy to customize the parts list (and the parts themselves) so you get the bits and bobs you want.

That's exactly what I intend on doing. His stuff looks great! I just need to get my head around a rules set to decide what I want him to make me!