Space 4x funk

[sandman2575]

I've been hankering for a good bout of space empire building... but have spent the past few nights bouncing off one space 4x title after another... none managing to keep my attention for more than a couple of hours.

I really want a game that emphasizes ship design and fleet tactics / composition / management. I've still not found a game that surpasses Sword of the Stars II in this respect. (For me, one of the bigger disappointments with Stellaris has been the lame ship combat). I really hate games that present ship combat as 'swarms of flies' that get into an utterly confusing close-quarters melee...and then the whole thing's over in 30 seconds and you've lost three-quarters of your fleet.

In terms of overall enjoyment, I'd probably rank the Space 4x games in my library accordingly:

1. Distant Worlds
2. Sword of the Stars II
3. Endless Space
4. Polaris Sector
5. Stellaris
6. Galactic Civs II/III

'Unknown quantities' that I haven't devoted much time to:  MOO3, Armada 2526

Games I've uninstalled and really don't intend to return to: StarDrive 1/2, Star Ruler 1/2, Space Empires IV

I regard Sins of a Solar Empire as one of the best space games ever created, but I don't think of it as a 4x game. Plus it lacks ship design, sadly.


Ordinarily I'd just play Distant Worlds or SOTSII, but for whatever reason they're just not calling me. So I've been bouncing around between Endless Space, Stellaris, Polaris Sector, and Gal Civ III. All have strengths... and yet I find myself bored after a few hours.  I'm slightly tempted to pick up the new Master of Orion, but at the same time, it really just looks like 'more of the same', standard, predictable 4x fare.

Probably the space 4x of my dreams doesn't exist. I won't get on my hobby horse about all the 4x conventions that *really* need to be retired or radically revised at this point -- there are a lot of them. But here's one that's really getting under my skin at the moment:  the tedium of building up fleets. Apparently it's written in stone somewhere that space 4x must observe the following start conditions:  you get 1 scout, 1 colonizer, and possibly 1 small combat vessel. Now spend the next several hours colonizing and hoarding resources and balancing your civilian vs. military budget so that you can eventually have smallish fleets of frigates and destroyers. (Gal Civ is especially bad in this regard).

How is it that a civilization capable of interstellar travel has no capacity to build a capital warship and can only sustain a fleet of a tiny handful of small vessels? I get the logic of this from a gameplay standpoint ("you can't start out too powerful! what fun would that be?") but I disagree with the premise. It *would* be fun to start out with bigger ships and fleets. The only game I can think of that allows this is Star Ruler 2... and yet there's too much else I dislike about that game to want to play it.

Anyway, I guess this is me venting more than anything else. But I welcome any thoughts on this subject. What space 4x 'ticks off the important boxes' for you? Which are your 'go to' space 4x?

[Jarhead0331]

I really want a game that emphasizes ship design and fleet tactics / composition / management. I've still not found a game that surpasses Sword of the Stars II in this respect. (For me, one of the bigger disappointments with Stellaris has been the lame ship combat). I really hate games that present ship combat as 'swarms of flies' that get into an utterly confusing close-quarters melee...and then the whole thing's over in 30 seconds and you've lost three-quarters of your fleet.

Easy...Polaris Sector.

NO GAME does ship design and fleet tactics/composition better. Every technology you unlock has purpose, and its not just laser, stronger laser, strongest laser.  i was really impressed by the thought, creativity and utility of the ship module and tech list in this game. Furthermore, no other game I have ever played, and as you know, I've played pretty much all of them, permits you to address any tactical or strategic situation through ship design. Its really the only game where I would be presented with a challenge that I could try to address through ship design, be it a need for more range, more payload, bigger guns, stealth, recon, etc. Usually, in other games in the genre, the player is faced with a challenge and you can only say, "wouldn't it be cool if..." In Polaris Sector, the options are truly limited only by your own imagination and strategic acumen. 

These concepts, fleet composition, management and tactics are equally important in combat portion of the game. Its one of the few games where fighter and bomber ships can really be used to devastating effect, playing the decisive role. I was shocked by the importance of using strategy with respect to these craft. Knowing when to employ them, and knowing when to hold them back, is critical...very similar to WWII carrier combat. For instance, if you send your fighters and bombers off to locate the enemy fleet, you may be caught defenseless, if the enemy fleet finds your ships first. I've experienced some real nail biters in this game. For capital ships, speed, range, firepower, etc. are also very important, as is having dedicated ship classes to perform specific tasks, such as anti-fighter and bomber defense, recon, attack, etc.

Polis Sector gets so much right, where so many other games have gotten so much wrong. The developer really thought outside of the box...

A patched MOO3 is worth a look too. Fleet composition is so import that the game actually imposes rules based upon unit size, role and purpose. For instance, a Long Range flotilla may only require a few mission critical ships, while a Long Range squadron or fleet will require larger numbers of ships overall, a set number of mission critical ships, pickets and escorts, etc. Meanwhile, a group with a different mission designation will require a whole different set of rules.

Ship design is also very well done in patched MOO3, permitting the player to also come up with very useful designs throughout. 

If the games you mentioned are not holding your interest, I'd shy away from MOOIV for now. Its a good game, but its not what you are looking for.

How is it that a civilization capable of interstellar travel has no capacity to build a capital warship and can only sustain a fleet of a tiny handful of small vessels? I get the logic of this from a gameplay standpoint ("you can't start out too powerful! what fun would that be?") but I disagree with the premise. It *would* be fun to start out with bigger ships and fleets. The only game I can think of that allows this is Star Ruler 2... and yet there's too much else I dislike about that game to want to play it.

Check out Pocket Space Empires...there are a few different start conditions, but most of them have the player starting of as a well developed intergalactic powerhouse.

[sandman2575]

Appreciate the strong endorsement, JH -- thanks.  I've never really gotten far enough into Polaris Sector to see the true effects of ship design and fleet tactics that you mention (...which is to say I've only scratched the surface of the game... yet against all expectation, I find it more compelling than Stellaris for reasons that are hard to put my finger on...)

JH, do you have a go-to space 4x, or one that you think overall provides the most well-rounded / satisfying experience?

[Jarhead0331]

Appreciate the strong endorsement, JH -- thanks.  I've never really gotten far enough into Polaris Sector to see the true effects of ship design and fleet tactics that you mention (...which is to say I've only scratched the surface of the game... yet against all expectation, I find it more compelling than Stellaris for reasons that are hard to put my finger on...)

JH, do you have a go-to space 4x, or one that you think overall provides the most well-rounded / satisfying experience?

I know what you mean about PS...it did not grab me right away. It took quite a bit of time, and a few restarts to really dig its hooks in. Heck, it took a few hundred years before I was even able to build anything larger than a corvette. But once you've been playing for awhile and you have developed a reasonably strong infrastructure, and unlocked some useful technologies, the options and the enjoyment really takes off. Do yourself a favor and stick with it!

If I had to pick a go-to space 4x game, it would most likely still be a patched MOO3. It really scratches all of my 4x itches and dreams. The ship design is great, the fleet options are impressive, the planetary invasion and planet based combat options are unrivaled to this day. No other space 4x permits the player to build ground units in varying sizes with varying composition, name them and then pick tactics in combat. The empire management, espionage, leader options are also impressive. It is not without its short comings (ie. diplomacy), but overall, its still what I always go back to. I get a real chuckle anytime I see someone attacking the game, or writing it off as a failure. Boy, they have no idea what they are talking about.

I will say that Polaris Sector surprisingly comes in a pretty damn close second.

[Dammit Carl!]

The only space(ship) funk you need, baby.  Accept no substitutes.

[OJsDad]

Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora.  I've messed with it from time to time and it's free.  Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.

Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time.  The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/

[sandman2575]

I know what you mean about PS...it did not grab me right away. It took quite a bit of time, and a few restarts to really dig its hooks in. Heck, it took a few hundred years before I was even able to build anything larger than a corvette. But once you've been playing for awhile and you have developed a reasonably strong infrastructure, and unlocked some useful technologies, the options and the enjoyment really takes off. Do yourself a favor and stick with it!

If I had to pick a go-to space 4x game, it would most likely still be a patched MOO3. It really scratches all of my 4x itches and dreams. The ship design is great, the fleet options are impressive, the planetary invasion and planet based combat options are unrivaled to this day. No other space 4x permits the player to build ground units in varying sizes with varying composition, name them and then pick tactics in combat. The empire management, espionage, leader options are also impressive. It is not without its short comings (ie. diplomacy), but overall, its still what I always go back to.

I will say that Polaris Sector surprisingly comes in a pretty damn close second.

You've inspired me to fire up Polaris Sector later tonight and give it a more serious go than I have to date.

One of these days I'm going to get around to learning MOO3. I do have it installed and patched, and know that you've done some Let's Play vids on YouTube. I'm slightly put off by the dated / low res graphics, but not so much that I refuse to play it (like Space Empires IV, for example!)

[sandman2575]

Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora.  I've messed with it from time to time and it's free.  Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.

Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time.  The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/

I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.

[OJsDad]

Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora.  I've messed with it from time to time and it's free.  Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.

Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time.  The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/

I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.

Little steps and restarts is the best way to start. 

[Jarhead0331]

Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora.  I've messed with it from time to time and it's free.  Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.

Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time.  The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/

I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.

Little steps and restarts is the best way to start.

There are also some great threads with useful step-by-step tutorials in the official forums. Some of them may be outdated by now though...

[bobarossa]

Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora.  I've messed with it from time to time and it's free.  Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.

Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time.  The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/

That and an in-depth look at the pre-created civilization/scenario that's included in the install file. 
I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.

Little steps and restarts is the best way to start.

[spelk]

XTRG is doing a series on it at the moment...

Exiled playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbSx_b5pOYvFZFacDxtVNNEKfxU4W5izw

First episode

[undercovergeek]

If you can get past the graphics I found aurora to be a thoroughly engaging game and loved it to bits - as stated find a lets play on YouTube and follow their lead, for me the lack of graphics made it more immersive, imagining the colonists and science teams on the planets and discovering the new minerals

However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start

[Anguille]

Horizon can have very long battles and you can build up the ships as you wish

While not a 4x and requiring windows 7, Conquest Frontier Wars is very fun for big battles and is somewhat the game that came before Sins of a Solar Empire....

About Armada 2526...it's one of the few 4x games that let's you play battles only if you wish (battle arena). I find it very challenging.

[Jarhead0331]

However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start

But with the GM tool, can't you give your empire virtually anything?