Time Commanders is back - TV Show using the Total War engine

[Destraex]

A very long time ago back when the interwebs was still slow and we still had LANs, a show emerged called time commanders. It used the original Rome total war engine. It was a lot of fun to watch. It involved a gent (now a chick) that taught at Sandhurst military academy commentating a battle between two groups of people controlling each army. The people on each side came from two different real life groups. For instance if I recall, one particular side were all from the same yachting club. These groups organised themselves into different commanders controlling different parts of the army and also elected an overall general. At the end and during the fun the commentators compared the groups performances to the real battles. Well now they are back in 2016. Going to have a look.

EDIT: Just watched some:
When the historian answered the contestant's question about how to take down an elephant. I thought the answer of with spears was fairly weak as they had no ranged units. However I guess the contestants could have thrown their pila. But the troops with pila were engaged.

The lengths the actual historical Romans went to in order to avoid them all together by opening their ranks and letting the elephants through shows how dangerous it was to simply let them into close combat and try to stab them with spears. The best way to take them on is to pepper them with arrows, sling bullets, spears etc from range or let them through as an elephant like a horse will generally want the path of least resistance.

I thought the initial skirmish phase was a stitch up for the Romans!

P.S. A Total War youtuber "Lionheart" and two fairly well know youtube channel military weaponry buffs, Lindy Beige and scholagladiatoria are also going to be in the TV show

[FlickJax]

second episode was better than the first the graphics looking pretty good for Waterloo, play was silly though

[Cyrano]

I will confess I'm still a bit tripped up by Ayreh Nusbacher's transition, but that aside this iteration enrages me.

Given that you could easily tart up legitimate tactics and strategy -- Dr. S., Capt. Darwin, and the rest of the crew do it every single Origins -- there is no reason not to find an engine to replicate the real thing and use that.  If memory serves, they originally tweaked the TW engine to make it more accurate, particularly in terms of numbers of troops.

I am not asking the ADHD generation we now serve to love Game of War -- I will be compelled to cuddle with it alone in the darkness -- but this is a wasted chance.

[Zulu1966]

 :P My god that was awful. Just freaking awful in every way. This aint got no better with age the first one was freaking awful too, but at least that was long enough ago that everything from that time looks awful now.

I agree though - if you had some proper grogheads on there would be much better - instead of a bunch of twats who just want to be on TV.

freaking awful,

[Destraex]

It is indeed rather tacky. But I still enjoy watching them for what they are. A little bit of fun. There is simply put, nothing else of it's kind to compete with it on TV.
The engine does not make too much difference to the outcome. I don't know of any engine that simulates Roman manipular tactics as well as being colourful enough for TV.

Imagine having a Grogheads battle with a modded total war engine streamed to youtube in the time commanders manner? It is easy to split forces with the total war multiplayer interface.
The problem I have with total war though is its really just about lining up your troops on a small battlefield and then going for it. No real strategy and only a few tactical options by that stage.
Where with Scourge of War things are happening across the battlefield that can affect the outcome. I own scourge of war waterloo but could not get past the ugly eye assaulting terrain, performance
and the horrible UI, but will eventually get around to it when they mod it. Scourge of War would have been a far superior engine for time commanders.

What exactly did you notice was wrong with the engine Cyrano?

I am hoping that when they get Lindy Beige on we will see some nice tactics. He is a history nut and a historical re-enactor who has done a fan funded historical comic on hannibal.
Nikolas Lloyd, aka Lindybeige is a filmmaker, historian, archeologist and all-around Englishman who's been on YouTube since 2007.

P.S. Yes Ayreh Nusbacher changing to a female makes it very hard to watch him now. He also has much less to say where he used to play a major role.

The Napoleonic one.

[Cyrano]

@Destraex:  It's all pretty square button stuff, but:

1.  The engine has never known an undulation it doesn't like.  The map makers seem incapable of creating gentle slopes.  Problem is, there were no cliffs at Waterloo.

2.  The unit frontages versus the ground scale are absurd.

3.  The number of units is wrong.

4.  One does not drag Napoleonic units about on a leash like that.

5. Waterloo comes off as a meeting engagement.  What's all that rubbish about "scouting" prior to the battle's start?

6.  And, the most ghastly thing, the episode leaves that bogus if classic image of heavy cavalry as the Napoleonic tank. 

For all its manifest technical deficiencies, watch this instead:

The host should be familiar and Gilder is a groghead demigod.  And the commentary isn't breathless nonsense.

Or, hell, watch this:

Watched this live at the time.

[jomni]

The host is a chef.

[ArizonaTank]

very cool...   

[Boggit]

Has anyone noticed the pure lethality of fire in these shows, whether you are looking at Zama or the Waterloo scenario. It's just silly. The Zama battle shooting was more appropriate to the killing at Verdun, than an exchange between slingers and cavalry... :pullhair:

[JudgeDredd]

Guys - I think you may be blowing things out of proportion here somewhat  :nerd:

It's a "mainstream" TV show. It's not meant for experts like us. It's mainstream TV entertainment for the masses. And from a pure TV enjoyment perspective (that is, removing all grogheadness), it does what it needs to do.

I'm enjoying it so far even though I only saw Zama. But it made me fire up Rome II TW the other day and I actually enjoyed it.

So ymmv, but come on...just remember what it is and what it's NOT meant to be.

[Father Ted]

I'm with JD on this - it's just a bit of entertainment really.  Did make me want to play TW again, also.  The battles in the game may not be realistic, but they are a bit of fun.  One thing I did notice in the Zama prog was a realistic (to my mind) reluctance for either side initiate an attack and thus risk getting "hit on the break".  I reckon a lot of battles would have started in this way - but obviously it wasn't making for good TV, to judge from the chef's comments.

[Destraex]

@Destraex:  It's all pretty square button stuff, but:

1.  The engine has never known an undulation it doesn't like.  The map makers seem incapable of creating gentle slopes.  Problem is, there were no cliffs at Waterloo.
I thought all total war did was gentle slopes until I saw warhammer total war. Gettysburg civil war is a good example of a game that basically is impossible to tell slopes in without a squint! There are much worse things out there.

2.  The unit frontages versus the ground scale are absurd.
Completely agree. but that is total war. What if I was to say to you to think back to when you were a youngster and tabletop also had absurd scaling and terrain scaling and any computer games
you loved were completely absurd compared to total war (excluding those that do not even show frontage like counter games)

3.  The number of units is wrong.
I only know of one engine capable of even coming close to realistic unit numbers without simply turning into a counter board game on computer.

4.  One does not drag Napoleonic units about on a leash like that.
As for the leash. I do not completely agree there as there was some degree of difficulty getting orders to units as they were going from general... through captain and then to the guy actually controlling the units who was not part of the team really. Not as good as the scourge of war system I grant you but still better than most games, including turn based games that are in existence.

5. Waterloo comes off as a meeting engagement.  What's all that rubbish about "scouting" prior to the battle's start?
True, that's what you get for using people who know nothing. You get variation. I still found it fun.

6.  And, the most ghastly thing, the episode leaves that bogus if classic image of heavy cavalry as the Napoleonic tank. 
Yes. but it is probably debatable that some generals of the day did not think that they were like tank! Certainly units used to run if charged rather than stand to the bayonet and I imagine that heavy cavalry could be considered tanks just for that reason?

For all its manifest technical deficiencies, watch this instead:

The host should be familiar and Gilder is a groghead demigod.  And the commentary isn't breathless nonsense.

Or, hell, watch this:

Watched this live at the time.

I will enjoy those videos you posted thanks. But time commanders is a bit of fun and light hearted experimentation with a nice historical twist

[Surtur]

Ahh the Scourge of War marathon, good times! Still a bit annoyed with all the technical issues we had with sound and microhpones etc. It was rather tough to pull it off, but still pretty cool in the end :)

[Cyrano]

It is to be taken as self-evident that people enjoy what they enjoy.   I just regard this show -- and the TW engine for that matter -- as a lost opportunity to truly educate.  The only thing that makes me honestly peevish is that they try all the pseudo-academic bits (guys farting about with 1776s and pila) and then make mock of what they just said when they fire up the engine.

To a few specifics:


1.  The engine has never known an undulation it doesn't like.  The map makers seem incapable of creating gentle slopes.  Problem is, there were no cliffs at Waterloo.
I thought all total war did was gentle slopes until I saw warhammer total war. Gettysburg civil war is a good example of a game that basically is impossible to tell slopes in without a squint! There are much worse things out there.

Real slopes are hard to see.  What I can't stand are the Warhammer-y hills you get a lot of in Empire and Napoleon.  Completely illogical and they disfigure the field.

2.  The unit frontages versus the ground scale are absurd.
Completely agree. but that is total war. What if I was to say to you to think back to when you were a youngster and tabletop also had absurd scaling and terrain scaling and any computer games
you loved were completely absurd compared to total war (excluding those that do not even show frontage like counter games)

Here you open an old wound.  This is why I walked away, under the tutelage of Dr. Griffith, from miniatures.  They've never been able to get it right, save for 2mm scale which defeats the point.

3.  The number of units is wrong.
I only know of one engine capable of even coming close to realistic unit numbers without simply turning into a counter board game on computer.

Use that engine :D.

4.  One does not drag Napoleonic units about on a leash like that.
As for the leash. I do not completely agree there as there was some degree of difficulty getting orders to units as they were going from general... through captain and then to the guy actually controlling the units who was not part of the team really. Not as good as the scourge of war system I grant you but still better than most games, including turn based games that are in existence.

This is to confuse the friction of giving orders with the difficulties of controlling a 19th Century cavalry, what, regiment, squadron, they never day; but I digress.  The former is one of the really good things about the show that makes the balance seem, to me, so dreadful.

5. Waterloo comes off as a meeting engagement.  What's all that rubbish about "scouting" prior to the battle's start?
True, that's what you get for using people who know nothing. You get variation. I still found it fun.

This is on the presenters.  Neither Napoleon nor Wellington had any doubt about where the other was.  There was no need for scouting and this should have been explained -- how tough would that have been?

Grogheads Central Command Presents: MEN PLAYING AT WAR

Dr. S. and the On Target crew run the sim and Brant and Doug offer pithy commentary.  I kill jeeps.

[Cyrano]

Oh, and @Surtur, please know that your efforts made my having to be at work rather than at the battlefield much more bearable.

I still re-watch it from time to time.

Jim