Crusader Kings II

[Bison]

Wordy explanations do not make something complex just the explanations wordy.

[son_of_montfort]

Wordy explanations do not make something complex just the explanations wordy.

Pointless statements do not make the discussion pointless, just the statement.

Perhaps you would like to summarize better?

[Bison]

Nope.  I wouldn't.

[son_of_montfort]

Well then, since you looked it up, QFT.  ;)

[Gusington]

What's wrong guys?

[son_of_montfort]

What's wrong guys?

I don't know. Apparently my explanations of the feudal vassalage system in CK II were too wordy to be helpful?

I was hoping I could shed some light on a game mechanic that, IMHO, is very complex even if the way in which it is managed seems simple at first glance. I thought the time I took to explain it was reasonable and didn't merit negativity. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose?

But, as I said, IMHO the are some hidden nuances in the game's feudal system that make it deceptively confusing. You have a nice button to call up your entire kingdom's levies, but that rarely is a good idea if you want to keep the peace in your realm. So you have buttons below that where you can call up specific counties. But even this is a bit more complicated - if you have a vassal (typically a Duke) who has vassals of his/her own, you can order that vassal to ONLY levy troops from his personal retinue (i.e. the counties he rules directly) or his entire duchy, including his vassals troops. That can be a nesting doll of pain - levying his vassals troops can create enmity between your duke and his subordinate... which, in turn, goes up to you.

I forgot to mention that you have the exact same thing with fleets. But I am, as of yet, unclear to how one actually gets more ships in one's fleets. I think this has to do with building more cities and outfitting them with docks.

Given that every single character has an opinion of other characters and you... the game gets pretty deep if you want to delve into all that.

[Toonces]

I'm pretty much with JH on this one.  SoM, you sure make the game sound rocking, but somehow I just don't think I would find it fun like you find it fun.

I started the demo and my eyes rolled back into my head.  Good lord, and you are the same guys that call WiTP complex?  Whatever, dudes.

[Greybriar]

....I started the demo and my eyes rolled back into my head.  Good lord, and you are the same guys that call WiTP complex?  Whatever, dudes.

I got a good laugh out of that statement. :)

[son_of_montfort]

I'm pretty much with JH on this one.  SoM, you sure make the game sound rocking, but somehow I just don't think I would find it fun like you find it fun.

I started the demo and my eyes rolled back into my head.  Good lord, and you are the same guys that call WiTP complex?  Whatever, dudes.

Oh please! I can't even make it through one turn of WitP!  ;D

I think you may be right though, familiarity with the subject matter leads to better understanding of the game. With WitP, I look and say "what the heck do I DO?" and have no sense of strategy. With CKII, I have a grand story ready to tell. But I know very little about the Pacific Theater history, the strategy, etc. and I've spent the last seven years in deep study of the middle ages.

To be honest, I was far less enthused about Sengoku for the very same reasons. Of course, CKII has a lot more to do than Sengoku did.

[jomni]

Acutally.  The game is simple if you don't play to win but just play to make a good story.

Ok fired up the game last night for the first time.  No tutorial since I have played CK1. 
Oh my! The interface is here is much worse than before (my opinion).  Took a while before I found my appointed leaders.  And took a while before I know where to look to do stuff.

Anyway.  I need a wife.  What's be best way to find a girl to marry?
I tried using the people filter but I keep geting courtesans and no royalty to marry.
What's the quickest way to find a nice girl that can bring so much prestige to my dynasty?

[spelk]

I tried using the people filter but I keep geting courtesans and no royalty to marry.
What's the quickest way to find a nice girl that can bring so much prestige to my dynasty?

Don't you filter on Rank, and then any royalty will sort to the top of the list?

Sometimes theres no-one worth marrying though, and then I think you have to invite a debutante to your court (which costs money).

I found the pairing up mechanism a bit cumbersome. If you want to ally yourself with a particular country, you have to click on the country, click on the leader, diplomacy, arrange marriage, select your bridge or groom, then select the country's bride or groom from their list - sorted by rank usually. All this has to be done for each country you want to search for a match in. If there isn't anything appropriate in that country, you have to cancel the whole procedure and start again.

Unless I'm doing it wrong.

[jomni]

I better look for that rank filter.  But I guess the ones with rank are already fat and married.  Not the pretty ones.

[spelk]

I better look for that rank filter.  But I guess the ones with rank are already fat and married.  Not the pretty ones.

Oh sure, they're usually the ones with hairlip, clubfoot or hunchback - not to mention the gluttonous and deceitful traits. :)

The rank sort icon looks like a crown, I think, and is the second one along from the left. The first one being opinion (of you).

I had a hell of a fight yesterday when my sister Princess Urraca revolted against me, and I was tied up in a holy war miles away. Ultimately she persuaded my brother against me too (since he was heir to the throne) and combined they started marching on my territory. In a last ditch attempt I hired a bucketload of Saxon mercs, who almost took me to the brink of victory, until the money run out. Then they abandoned me with glee, when my brother paid them double, and set them onto my kingdom. All was lost by then. Penniless, army-less, they rolled over me.

The excitement caused by that one singular betrayal at the very beginning of my reign, caused ripples in the waters of fate until I was lying dead in the crumbling castle, being trodden underfoot by my own hired Saxon army!

I should have married a sweet French girl, with high connections, and had the French Army march across the Pyrenees to suffocate my Sisters ambitions and teach those Saxon turncoats a thing or two!

[Martok]

I think I'm going to end up liking Crusader Kings 2 a lot, for at least two reasons: 


1.)  Period & setting.  While I'm definitely not an expert on the Middle Ages like SoM, I've long had an enthusiasm for it.  I couldn't tell you why, exactly -- other than that includes various factors like the religion & politics (and how those two were even more inextricably entwined than they are today), the feudal system, the weapons & tactics used in warfare, etc. -- but either way, I've spent almost half my life being utterly fascinated with the period. 

So perhaps those who don't have much interest in the game simply don't have a particular interest in medieval Europe either?  I suspect that may be the case for a lot of folks. 



2.)  Characters.  One of the reasons I like grand strategy games is that you're essentially writing your own story as the game progresses.  And really, what's a good story without characters in it? 

Well since CK2 is all about characters, it's not hard to imagine its appeal to me.  I've admittedly only played the demo a little bit so far, but it seems to me that you're managing your people even more than your territories, which I find to be a wonderfully different take on the genre. 

What do you do with that wayward son of yours?  You don't want to knock him off if you can reasonably avoid it (he's your heir after all, and those can be dangerously rare at times), yet you obviously can't just continue to let him run amuck causing trouble either.  Perhaps giving him part of your demesne would help (improves loyalty while potentially freeing up additional counties/provinces to add to your own demesne). 

How about that bishop who pays little in the way of taxes and defies you at every turn?  Do you try and quietly remove him and hope he gets replaced with someone more pliable?  Or do you find some way to curry favor with him instead?  How do you maximize taxes and levies from your vassals while keeping them relatively compliant and satisfied? 


Yeah, this is definitely the sort of thing I can just eat up! 

[son_of_montfort]

Acutally.  The game is simple if you don't play to win but just play to make a good story.

Ok fired up the game last night for the first time.  No tutorial since I have played CK1. 
Oh my! The interface is here is much worse than before (my opinion).  Took a while before I found my appointed leaders.  And took a while before I know where to look to do stuff.

Anyway.  I need a wife.  What's be best way to find a girl to marry?
I tried using the people filter but I keep geting courtesans and no royalty to marry.
What's the quickest way to find a nice girl that can bring so much prestige to my dynasty?

You can also click on your ruler to bring up his character sheet. If unmarried, there is a little "dual rings" button to the right of his picture. Click that and it will bring up a giant list of available ladies who will likely agree to marry you. You can do this for most any character in your dynasty. With that tool, you can also filter it to get certain types of ladies. If your character is a minor, you will have to have he or she betrothed rather than married.

I think playing the game is simple, but there is a lot of hidden or poorly documented complexity in the vassal/subordinate UI and system. For instance, I suddenly got a message that said "wrong type of ruler for holding." I scratched my head, what did this mean? Also my King's dominion score suddenly went up (over the limit). So I clicked on it to see that the Baron of Sisteron (a small castle holding within the county of Provence) was vacant, apparently the previous tenant had died and bequeathed it to me. So I had to find a replacement. Finding a replacement for a position is a bit harder than it should be, particularly for these low level positions.

I may have missed it, but is there a button or method for assigning a county or holding from the county or holding's information screen? Or do I have to use the character filter to dig through potential subordinates, then go to the diplomacy screen, click the grant landed title, and then scroll to the title I want to give?

Also, I finally realize that the "include lower titles" button on the grant title interface does NOT mean show lower level vassal titles, but show UPPER level titles (typically duchies) that include authority over lower level titles. The way in which that is worded is a little odd. 

I love the game still, but I have a few minor annoyances. Sometimes you can tell that the event dialog and choices are too generic and probably not written by a native English speaker. Some of the event choices are fairly vague. You get an event saying something like, Bishop X tells you that your life is sinful: I will be more pious and austere (piety +5, prestige -5); Listen to him, but do nothing (no change)...; That priest... (no change); I will live as I always have! (prestige +5, piety -5, relation with Bishop -20). Sure, the two ends of the spectrum are clear, but what about the middle two? Now I totally made this up, because I couldn't remember a specific event that did this, but I have seen a few where the impact of the middle "meh" choices and the difference between them were unclear. I suppose that some fire additional events later, but that could be stated (and usually is for many events). Overall, I would have liked a little better event text.