US Ambassador to Libya and 3 staff members killed

[mirth]

It's a mistake for Romney to directly criticize the President on the handling of these events as they are unfolding. He has proxies to do that. He should back off for now.

[Bison]

He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

[mirth]

He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

I don't think he has to give them a pass. Like I said, he has proxies who can criticize for him. It was unseemly for Romney to directly offer criticism on the same day Americans died and while the details of the events were still not clearly known.

[OJsDad]

However, we need to stop having any presence there.  ie, no diplomatic exchanges, no trade, do not allow their citizens to come the the US. 

Without any sort of exchanges or interactions with them, how would you expect them to know anything about the benefits of moving their society forward a few hundred years?  Without allowing their citizens to come to the US, how do you expect them to go back home and spread the values and benefits of our way of life to their people?

What makes you think coming here they will either go back home, or have any desire to spread the values and benefits of our way of life.  It seems like they have a problem with accepting our values and benefits.

don't come crying to us for aid.

I think it depends on what kind of aid.  Again, showing off our ability and means to provide compassionate care in a crisis - like floods, earthquakes, etc - is a very positive form of engagement that can, and should, be continued.  Military aid?  Maybe not so much.

We've done this in the past with Iran.  Do you think those getting the aid knew where that aid came from.  I would be surprised if Iran didn't do their best to make sure everyone thought the aid from the Tehran.  Same with N. Korea.

As for those that don't support the radicals and be hurt by such actions, then it's time that they stood up and took control of their own countries.

Absolutely.  But keep in mind that you're talking about societies with a 9000-year-old tradition of "authoritarian-rule-by-strongman" and about 6 weeks of anything remotely resembling popular rule.

Doesn't that decribe most of the world until the last couple of hundred years. 

Having popular rule doens't mean that those same radicals cannot be elected to lead. 

In some ways, I agree with you.  However, at some point, we have to admit that we are just spinnnig our wheels.  If there are countries that are wanting our help and follow embrace the benefits of our way of life, then I would rather put those dollars there.  Of course, if we go bankrupt, it'll all be a mute point.

[Bison]

He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

I don't think he has to give them a pass. Like I said, he has proxies who can criticize for him. It was unseemly for Romney to directly offer criticism on the same day Americans died and while the details of the events were still not clearly known.

He was going to be damned if did or didn't by the media.  But he said nothing in condemning the attacks and the Egyptian embassy's immediate response that is out of step with the majority of Americans.  The ones who were most "offended" were the media.

[Bison]

And the news keeps getting worse.   Now we find this out:

[U.S. Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson] did not permit US Marine guards to carry live ammunition, according to USMC blogs. Thus she neutralized any US military capability that was dedicated to preserve her life and protect the US Embassy. In this respect, she did not defend US sovereign territory and betrayed her oath of office. She neutered the Marines posted to defend the embassy, trusting the Egyptians over the Marines.

Read more: http://nation.time.com/2012/09/13/whats-worse-no-marines-or-possibly-unarmed-marines/#ixzz26MtJiNsm

Good grief.

[Centurion40]

So much for looking strong on foreign policy.

I gotta ask, though - what is it you actually want him to do?  Start shooting people?  That's going to stop a riot?  Seriously?  I mean look, I'm not a fan of the President at all, but right now we're pretty option-constrained.  He may be responsible for some of those constraints, but (in)actions 14 months ago can't be undone now.  The key question is "what do we do now?"

We can
a} hunker down and hope for the best
b} withdraw and cut off a key line of engagement with the governments that (by and large) are friendly to us
c} hold foreign aid to be contingent on increased security from host nations and hope they don't see it as blackmail
d} beef up security with Blackwater
e} nuke 'em from orbit, just to be sure

I've heard a lot of people pissed off about what happened - and I don't disagree a bit - but no good, solid, concrete recommendations about what to do differently.  "Send in the Marines!"... to do what, exactly?  Shoot people?  Tear gas and sticky foam might help, in the short term.

But the bottom line is that we are dealing with a backwards society of savages who violently riot at the slightest provocation and show no desire to join a modern, tolerant, free-thinking and open-minded world in which a variety of viewpoints are met and engaged with reason and discussion instead of RPGs and Molotov cocktails.  Until the societies themselves want to change, these sorts of flare-ups will continue to happen, and the societies that engender them will continue to trail the rest of the world in economic, social, scientific, and intellectual development.  And it will be completely their own fault.

That sums it up.

[Bison]

The problem is that reports are coming out of Lybia that the attack was planned and coordinated and not an action of a group of unorganized backward uneducated religious yokles rioting in the streets over a youtube video.  Remember back when the whole Lybia intervention happened that it was also reported that Al Queda was very involved within the rebel ranks.  We chose to ignore those reports and believe it was democracy wanting doctors, lawyers and teachers.

Wanis al-Sharef, eastern Libya's deputy interior minister, said on Thursday the attacks were suspected to have been timed to mark the 9/11 anniversary and that the militants used civilians protesting an anti-Islam film as cover for their action.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/13/consulate-attack-planned-as-2-part-militant-assault-libyan-official-says/#ixzz26N2eOVwK

[Jarhead0331]

e} nuke 'em from orbit, just to be sure

The obvious answer...

[Centurion40]

As long as "we" are present in that region, "we" will have to deal with this kind of shit.

We will only disengage from that region when oil and Israel become irrelevant, and I can't see either thing happen any time soon.  We're not going to give up oil or turn our back on the only friendly, viable democracy in the region.

I restate my fondness for the concept of a re-born Ottoman Empire.  Let the Turks absorb and contain the shit.

[The Puss]

But the bottom line is that we are dealing with a backwards society of savages who violently riot at the slightest provocation and show no desire to join a modern, tolerant, free-thinking and open-minded world in which a variety of viewpoints are met and engaged with reason and discussion instead of RPGs and Molotov cocktails. 

This for me is a salient point. Just because they access the internet and communicate through it does not mean they have moved their thinking into the 21st century. This is not meant to be racist but I watched those striking miners in South Africa and thought well they wear 21st century clothes and there are a few media devices there but are they acting any different from their tribal ancestors of the 1800's? A lot of my friends commented on this as well.
I am not saying we in the West are so superior as we have our far share of nut jobs i.e. the character who made this video causing all the grief. Our problem is that the nut job in the West knows how to enrage thousands elsewhere.

[mirth]

He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

I don't think he has to give them a pass. Like I said, he has proxies who can criticize for him. It was unseemly for Romney to directly offer criticism on the same day Americans died and while the details of the events were still not clearly known.

He was going to be damned if did or didn't by the media.  But he said nothing in condemning the attacks and the Egyptian embassy's immediate response that is out of step with the majority of Americans.  The ones who were most "offended" were the media.

He absolutely should have condemned the attacks. He could have easily done it without being critical of the current administration in the immediate aftermath.

All I'm saying is that it seems like the smart play for Romney was to rise above the immediate politics. He can still go after Obama in a few days or in a week. And he has plenty of others to step up and deliver criticism in the meantime.

[mirth]

I restate my fondness for the concept of a re-born Ottoman Empire.  Let the Turks absorb and contain the shit.

Good luck convincing the Turks to take over that pile of shit again.  :D

[LongBlade]

I am not saying we in the West are so superior as we have our far share of nut jobs i.e. the character who made this video causing all the grief.

That video wasn't out long enough for it to have had any impact in Libya. It might have sparked the riots in Egypt, or fueled them to greater heights.

[The Puss]

That video wasn't out long enough for it to have had any impact in Libya. It might have sparked the riots in Egypt, or fueled them to greater heights.

Twitter, Facebook, Youtube etc. This is my point, they have embraced 21st century tech but totally bypassed 21st century reasoning.