Steam Key Re-sellers

[Sir Slash]

You are wrong, I specifically said in my post, "Buying stolen goods and reselling them is always bad". That would include stolen credit cards I believe. But my question is if I buy a game and get a key to install it, unless prohibited by the site's rules or a state or federal law, isn't it MY key and I can do whatever I want with it, sell it, give it away, or ignore it? That seems very basic and not a threat to gaming world-wide nor supportive of International Criminal Cartels.

If the bad guys are stealing anything or anyone's possessions, then that is a crime and should treated as such. And I hope the bastards get caught and prosecuted wherever they operate from. Maybe if there were more attention paid to them specifically, then there would be less of the crime committed. 

[al_infierno]

But my question is if I buy a game and get a key to install it, unless prohibited by the site's rules or a state or federal law, isn't it MY key and I can do whatever I want with it, sell it, give it away, or ignore it? That seems very basic and not a threat to gaming world-wide nor supportive of International Criminal Cartels.

I don't know what Steam's specific rules are about selling keys (I'm pretty sure it's explicitly against their TOS), but this is irrelevant to the point that these keys are obtained fraudulently in the first place.

I'm not suggesting you're literally funding international criminal cartels. I was drawing the comparison to illustrate that these businesses operate in a similar way to Mafias.

No, gaming as a whole is not going to collapse, but if you're willing to scam a small business owner on the grounds that it won't cause the whole economy to collapse, then that honestly really just speaks for itself. Same with the sentiment of "Well if they're breaking the law, I sure hope they get caught; but in the meantime I don't see any problem doing business with them."

[devoncop]

Interesting discussion.

As an ex police officer with a very black and white view of right and wrong (to the extent it stymied my career progression as I turned down detective branch as their were too many grey areas for me working with informants etc) , I would never endorse turning a blind eye to criminality.

As a result I have stopped using Kinguin and got my refund because of the issue I originally raised despite the fact I have now paid double to access the game.

My point is that until someone shows me evidence of a specific reseller using criminal methods I am 100 per cent going to use them as they are after all legal businesses.

[al_infierno]

^ Fair enough to want proof, though I've heard enough secondhand anecdotes of indie game devs being screwed by sites like G2A that I personally refuse to support them on principle.

[Destraex]

Interesting conversation.

[The_Admiral]

Well obviously the main issue that makes you - whether you like it or not - engage in probably illegal activities every time you buy a key from a re-seller is akin to what happens IRL in many other examples, when it comes to VAT for those places that apply it. It's illegal, but depending on the case you're not in breach of contract or law with the same people.

An example: say you're on holidays in Hong-Kong, you come back with an Iphone that is noticeably cheaper than the same product in your place. It is all the more obvious for games considering these are 100% the same offerings, with no other difference than the price, but let's say this Iphone is 100% similar to what you'd buy in your country.

You're allowed in with the assumption that it is either 1) for your own use 2) a gift.
It ends up on Ebay in its original packaging. You are engaging in contraband by profiting under a false pretense, and the buyer is engaging in contraband by buying said product too.

Now, they say they "import their keys". Which would not be an issue if it had any actual ground for legality - but there are a few obstacles on that road from my understanding:

1) Valve was not applying VAT accordingly when you go through the cashier. I.e.: X country VAT was applied, which is not usually the VAT you'd apply for an exportation - ok then you paid more than you should have at that point - but this is largely compensated by the fact that Y country doesn't levy import tax on this transaction - not because digital products VAT is waived, but because it completely goes under the radar). Original key buyer, besides the means he might have used to acquired them, might not have cheated the law. The shop that does buy them from him, on the other hand, obviously is cheating its own country's import tax rate, for sure. And after that, it is selling back to you things it should not be allowed to process in the first place. If it re-applies the VAT based on its customer location, then it means you are buying a non-regular product the regular way, but remember that you'll be paying your VAT - while they haven't paid their own. But even then, let's say I am ready to believe they went 100% through due process, happen to live in a place where those shenanigans are legal and import tax is low & accounted for. Then it brings us to point n°2.

2) Valve does not sell keys in bulk to begin with, and if a dev/publisher does (the only legal way these keys were acquired, which in itself would be surprising - you can imagine EA & Activision don't exactly do that) by generating them for further use so as to profit from a different price than the one indicated on the buyer's shop, he is going against Valve's terms of business (which in itself is not illegal, but is cause for termination of their contract with the platform)

At any rate, world-wide, non-region locked keys IMHO usually mean dev/publisher bulk sales. That's between them & Steam, obviously... But still, let's not pretend it's TOS-compatible to begin with. For now Steam thinks it is not worth the fight, or is even helpful to their larger economy (that is by bringing more people on the platform). The day they decide to enforce their TOS and deactive all these keys all of a sudden (might never happen though especially for past lots) just don't be mad at them ;)

At the end of the day, does that make you a criminal? Well of course not - no more than, like, spitting your gum in a no littering area or something. You're only a criminal if you get caught, and even then the offense is what it is. Still, it's all up to your moral compass at the end, and although I can hold these things as understandable and not of a big deal, advocating them broadly or profiteering from them on a larger scale is less my cup of tea, that's probably where my limit is - all the more now that I am about to be a victim (although victim is too much of a word IMHO) of this practice myself when our game comes out (if it ever comes out, and successful enough to be sought ^^)

[devoncop]

Very interesting and well explained description of a process I to be perfectly honest have a less than full understanding of.

I think you are right in pointing out that in allowing external steam keys to be subsequently registered and used on their site are explicitly facilitating the whole key re-seller business. I think there is zero chance they would ever de-activate keys from re sellers as the reputational damage they would suffer would be catastrophic.

I understand as a developer you have "skin in the game" so would naturally be opposed to cheap keys being re sold and traded but I still totally refute any suggestion of any illegality by individual consumers (at least under UK law). There is simply no legislation forbidding such a practice nor a single prosecution of anyone doing so (for the same reason).

[The_Admiral]

To be honest, Valve is not in an easy situation either. There should be nothing by European standards for instance that prevent you from reselling your key/license. They were caught in the past on other aspects - such as, for instance, their generous return policy which ends up, IIRC, motivated by the EU objecting to these.
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/369C-3E9F-76FD-DEDA

The whole key business derives directly (just like the legal issues above) from their nature of trying to cover the whole globe with a single platform which has to account with the fact that business in the USA, UK, EU, Russia, India, China or else might have broadly comparable characteristics, but certainly don't protect their consumers with the same exact rules or energy. I suppose they have come to accept that the key business comes with the territory, and some of the schemes that emanated from them really are brilliant & important to our gaming ecosystem (Nexus for contents creators for instance, or providing a steam key along with sales on the Bundle Store or GOG, if that's still a thing). So overall I am sure the good things balance the bad ones, one way or another.

My main response to that anyway is to do what I can along with my publisher, when time comes, to keep regional prices as close from each other as possible. After all it's on us if we decide to release on Steam. With a great market come great responsibilities 

[devoncop]

Excellent attitude towards the issue and one that many could learn from imho

[Zulu1966]

There are - as always different shades of these types of site. Some may be more dodgy than others - but I regularly buy from CD Keys I dont see any real difference than buying a steam key from them or green man gaming - or gamers gate...

[Destraex]

I wonder what peoples opinions would be if instead of computer games we were talking about paying our taxes.

In an imperfect world I think steam is doing the right thing by being "balanced" and only acting on evidence when it has evidence. Platforms that are too rigid eventually fall. I am remembering napster and torrents and things and how any action was effectively pointless. Still I wonder how people are selling region unlocked keys.

 I am also remembering the cracked game market people used before we had steam internet activation. I am trying to point out that things could be worse. Steam is the best thing that happened to PC games. No closed console ecosystem, yet good incentive for developers to make games because they can make money. Trust that people have in steam that wherever you are in the world as a developer your game can host to the entire world without bias and as far as possible due to reviews etc a reasonable chance of not being scams. No reliance on the local shops having stock or even bothering to get a game you want in.

However, as for the whole reselling of a digital item. I think this whole thing has always been a little silly and akin to wanting to sell your movie ticket after you have watched the movie. Rather than reselling a physical item like a book which is the fully be all and end of all service. A digital key or a movie is payment for not only the digital IP but the hosting of that service for the life of the game (the projectionist and his theatre). Add to this that in the olden days because the service was digital in nature it could be copied to multiple computers at no charge. If reselling was to be facilitated it would not only force the provider (usually steam) to have to provide and maintain a way of reselling between accounts but would probably also push them to a subscription service where you paid per game per year. Thus when you resold the game you would essentially be selling the remainder of a car registration.

Of course if anybody would prefer to go back to the good old days of boxed games with copy protection on the discs and no account activation. Where developers would once again be exposed to fake product and copying rackets? Where consumers would be exposed to damaged media and scratched discs.

[Sir Slash]

Agree totally! Please God, deliver us from the return of the DRM Police. And I don't even think I'm capable of doing the whole, 'Patch & Update' thing anymore. Steam can have my house keys if only they keep my shit straight for me.

[SirAndrewD]

Of course if anybody would prefer to go back to the good old days of boxed games with copy protection on the discs and no account activation. Where developers would once again be exposed to fake product and copying rackets? Where consumers would be exposed to damaged media and scratched discs.

Screw that!

I want to go back to the days of manual based code wheels!!!

[Gusington]

 

[Gusington]

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