Israel

[MikeGER]

lets call it 107 ten-seven referring to 911 and respond accordingly

in the West people celebrating 107 (or 911) on the street should be prosecuted for hate-crime with the already existing laws

[UN Weapons Inspector]

Aside from the obvious stupidity of anyone celebrating this, and there are plenty of useful idiots (to the Hamas) around the world, antisemitism as an old trope regarding this conflict is not helpful. It is damaging in the way, as blinding us to the possible solutions. If I dare to say, one could be more humane treatment of Palestinians.   

[Jarhead0331]

In WWII when the Allies bombed cities, nobody concerned themselves with counting how many innocent civilians who weren't Nazis might get killed. The goal was to end the war as quickly as possible by attacking the enemy where it hurt the most and caused the most damage. Strategically, why shouldn't Israel have the same right? Historically, Israel has shown tremendous restraint and humanity by employing all means to avoid unnecessary collateral damage and loss, even going so far to warn those in an area in advance of an attack, giving information on both timing and method. No other civilized state does this with such regularity, as far as I know.

The truth is, an unfair double standard is imposed upon Israel for one reason and one reason alone, the ancient and ever-present hatred of Jews. I see no other legitimate basis for this, or for western sympathy and support for Hamas. It is reprehensible. This does not make apology for Israel's sometimes draconian rules for Palestinians in Gaza,  but neither does it excuse the butcher of innocent women and children or justify sympathy for terrorists. A line must be drawn against barbarity in favor of democratic, civilized nations, of which Israel is one. I pray for the safety of its people, its soldiers and defenders and for a fast end to this terrible war that results in the destruction of Israel's enemies.

[Groggy]

I think this thread should be closed. In this particular crisis the strategic/tactical situation and politics are inextricable. I've read far too many opinions in other areas of the internet where anti-Semitism and Islamophobia have been smeared over the necessary nuance.

[W8taminute]

I don't know the exact number of times the UN has condemned Israel for one thing or another but that amount far exceeds the condemnation that has been given to other countries.  In fact if one were to combine the number of times all the countries that have been condemned it would not even come close to the number of times the UN has condemned Israel.

Something about that totally doesn't make sense.  Is it racism against Jews?  Or is the saying "we battle not against flesh and blood but against dark spirits in high places"?  I believe this hatred towards Israel and the Jews is demonic in nature. 

[Tripoli]

scorched earth is not the solution, but Hamas and all who had beeen or are willing to support them in Gaza has to be rooted out.

...
Ít is a small 911 (especially that music festival)  with victims from a lot of nations  Americans , French, Thai , Germans, ... 
 
       

As a percentage of population, it is almost ten times bigger than 9/11.  The US lost approximately .001% of it's population on 9/11 (3000 dead/300 million population).  Israel lost approximately .00961% of its population on Saturday. (900 dead/9.364 million population).

[Redwolf]

Speaking of tactics:

Is there information available about the security perimeter aroud Gaza and why it didn't stop the breakout?

I know there is quite a bit if air travel involved, but it looks like a lot of pickup trucks and vans with gunmen made it through.

[Sir Slash]

I would completely agree with Sir Andrew IF the Hamas fighters had acted like an actual State Military Force and took prisoners humanely and treated them with some degree of compassion. These animals did neither and so deserve NO level of understanding, consideration, and or mercy. Trying to avoid civilian casualties won't work because Hamas hides amongst the people, placing their arsenals and HQ's next door to hospitals and orphanages, schools and nurseries--civilians deaths are inevitable. The innocent persons who live there have, since Hamas stole Gaza from The Palestinian Authority, known they intended to provoke war between themselves and Israel, know what Hamas stands for, and how they intend to accomplish it. And yet they have CHOOSEN to remain there. I don't believe their being held there at gunpoint, they could've left at any time.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities. Why shouldn't Israel fire tens of thousands indiscriminately back into Gaza at them? But, no, we expect them to act with restraint, maybe fly a drone around until they see a couple of Hamas on a motorcycle with a big sign saying, "Here we are. Please drone us". War is Hell. They want it, so lets show them what it looks like.

[steve58]

Speaking of tactics:

Is there information available about the security perimeter aroud Gaza and why it didn't stop the breakout?

I know there is quite a bit if air travel involved, but it looks like a lot of pickup trucks and vans with gunmen made it through.

I thought I read that Hamas used drones to first disable monitoring towers.  Then they blew holes in the fence, followed by bulldozers to make even bigger openings.

[steve58]

...a followup note on my previous post about gun ownership in Israel.

Israeli gun ownership is low at about 2% of the population. It compares to about 30% of the population owning a gun in the US.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65110881

[Tripoli]

Good podcast with Bruce Hoffman on WotR from yesterday.  He provides a 10,000 foot "quick look" of the conflict: https://warontherocks.com/2023/10/the-meaning-of-the-attack-on-israel/

[al_infierno]

I would completely agree with Sir Andrew IF the Hamas fighters had acted like an actual State Military Force and took prisoners humanely and treated them with some degree of compassion. These animals did neither and so deserve NO level of understanding, consideration, and or mercy. Trying to avoid civilian casualties won't work because Hamas hides amongst the people, placing their arsenals and HQ's next door to hospitals and orphanages, schools and nurseries--civilians deaths are inevitable. The innocent persons who live there have, since Hamas stole Gaza from The Palestinian Authority, known they intended to provoke war between themselves and Israel, know what Hamas stands for, and how they intend to accomplish it. And yet they have CHOOSEN to remain there. I don't believe their being held there at gunpoint, they could've left at any time.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities. Why shouldn't Israel fire tens of thousands indiscriminately back into Gaza at them? But, no, we expect them to act with restraint, maybe fly a drone around until they see a couple of Hamas on a motorcycle with a big sign saying, "Here we are. Please drone us". War is Hell. They want it, so lets show them what it looks like.

Bolded part is complicated. Gaza has been under blockade ever since Hamas came to power, and I understand it's quite difficulf for Palestinians to leave.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

[SirAndrewD]

I would completely agree with Sir Andrew IF the Hamas fighters had acted like an actual State Military Force and took prisoners humanely and treated them with some degree of compassion. These animals did neither and so deserve NO level of understanding, consideration, and or mercy. Trying to avoid civilian casualties won't work because Hamas hides amongst the people, placing their arsenals and HQ's next door to hospitals and orphanages, schools and nurseries--civilians deaths are inevitable. The innocent persons who live there have, since Hamas stole Gaza from The Palestinian Authority, known they intended to provoke war between themselves and Israel, know what Hamas stands for, and how they intend to accomplish it. And yet they have CHOOSEN to remain there. I don't believe their being held there at gunpoint, they could've left at any time.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities. Why shouldn't Israel fire tens of thousands indiscriminately back into Gaza at them? But, no, we expect them to act with restraint, maybe fly a drone around until they see a couple of Hamas on a motorcycle with a big sign saying, "Here we are. Please drone us". War is Hell. They want it, so lets show them what it looks like.

If I came off as harsh it was partly the amount of material I'm reading that is openly calling for a Palestinian genocide. 

Let me be clear here, I support Israel and they've been backed into a corner where they have to go to a full scale war.  And it will be hell.  However 100% Israel needs to fight the war according to the rules of war, and that excludes terror bombings, WMD's and open genocide. 

Because no, as has been pointed out Palestinians in Gaza do not have the ability to leave.  No, all Palestinians do not support Hamas.  Hamas does not govern Gaza, the PNA does and many Palestinians support it and normalization.

And importantly, a mass genocide will radically alter the state of the mideast and increase radicalization and put pressure on more moderate states like Egypt and Jordan to end their peace agreements.

I feel ferociously angry about the attack too.  It's barbaric, inhumane, it violates every moral position I hold and deeply feel for those that lost people.

So, fight the war, fight it with the goal of destroying Hamas and limiting civilian casualties.  Do what must be done to win and no more.  Israel will still be called a monster for it, but it's the only path to where a lasting peace can come after.

Anyway, that's what I'll say on it as Jarhead wants us to play nice.  Never forget the respect I have for those here and their opinions. I wouldn't stick around with you drunken reprobates if I didn't.

[UN Weapons Inspector]

Amen

[Gusington]

I was about to post but D and Al beat me to it...Palestinians can't just up and leave Gaza.

And not to defend the Palestinians at all, but more times than not, they are looked at as the lowest of the low by the rest of the Arab and Muslim world as well.

Just above Jews.