Israel

[steve58]

I would completely agree with Sir Andrew IF the Hamas fighters had acted like an actual State Military Force and took prisoners humanely and treated them with some degree of compassion. These animals did neither and so deserve NO level of understanding, consideration, and or mercy. Trying to avoid civilian casualties won't work because Hamas hides amongst the people, placing their arsenals and HQ's next door to hospitals and orphanages, schools and nurseries--civilians deaths are inevitable. The innocent persons who live there have, since Hamas stole Gaza from The Palestinian Authority, known they intended to provoke war between themselves and Israel, know what Hamas stands for, and how they intend to accomplish it. And yet they have CHOOSEN to remain there. I don't believe their being held there at gunpoint, they could've left at any time.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities. Why shouldn't Israel fire tens of thousands indiscriminately back into Gaza at them? But, no, we expect them to act with restraint, maybe fly a drone around until they see a couple of Hamas on a motorcycle with a big sign saying, "Here we are. Please drone us". War is Hell. They want it, so lets show them what it looks like.

If I came off as harsh it was partly the amount of material I'm reading that is openly calling for a Palestinian genocide. 

Let me be clear here, I support Israel and they've been backed into a corner where they have to go to a full scale war.  And it will be hell.  However 100% Israel needs to fight the war according to the rules of war, and that excludes terror bombings, WMD's and open genocide. 

Because no, as has been pointed out Palestinians in Gaza do not have the ability to leave.  No, all Palestinians do not support Hamas.  Hamas does not govern Gaza, the PNA does and many Palestinians support it and normalization.

And importantly, a mass genocide will radically alter the state of the mideast and increase radicalization and put pressure on more moderate states like Egypt and Jordan to end their peace agreements.

I feel ferociously angry about the attack too.  It's barbaric, inhumane, it violates every moral position I hold and deeply feel for those that lost people.

So, fight the war, fight it with the goal of destroying Hamas and limiting civilian casualties.  Do what must be done to win and no more.  Israel will still be called a monster for it, but it's the only path to where a lasting peace can come after.

Anyway, that's what I'll say on it as Jarhead wants us to play nice.  Never forget the respect I have for those here and their opinions. I wouldn't stick around with you drunken reprobates if I didn't.

Wait, hasn't Hamas been the de facto governing body of Gaza since 2007?

[JasonPratt]

As a note, Israel has strenuously warned civilians in the Gaza strip to get out while they can -- I don't know whether preparations have been made to help that, or how far.

Hamas has strenuously warned civilians in the Gaza strip to ignore Israel and stay in place for the glory of Allah or something. (I haven't specifically heard why they're saying so but I can make guesses from past experience.)

On a related but somewhat different topic: what's the current sitrep for Lebanon and Syria, and the PLA in the West Bank? I hadn't heard of any action from them last night at bedtime and I've been busy since then.

I _think_ I heard that Jordan condemned the action by Hamas, but I may have misheard that. (That might be limited to condemning attacks upon Jerusalem itself, of course.)

[SirAndrewD]

Wait, hasn't Hamas been the de facto governing body of Gaza since 2007?

De facto but unrecognized. 

A significant number of Palestinians in Gaza still support Abbas and the PNA, but they are a minority.  Estimates are around 40%

[Gusington]

Does Syria at this point have any strength to do anything outside its borders?

[SirAndrewD]

Does Syria at this point have any strength to do anything outside its borders?

No.  The only good thing the Civil War did there was to remove them as a factor. 

[Gusington]

^Good.

[SirAndrewD]

As a note, Israel has strenuously warned civilians in the Gaza strip to get out while they can -- I don't know whether preparations have been made to help that, or how far.

No, they haven't.  It was reported that way in western media but wasn't entirely correct.

They were told to evacuate designated areas such as El-Mekusi, Beit Hanoun, Shuja'iyya, El-Bireyc, El-Maghazi, Big Abasan, Small Abasan and Rafah. 

There isn't any real way for a mass exodus from Gaza.  It's been under blockade for 17 by air and by sea and has been called "The worlds largest open air prison."

No one can leave the strip without specific permission and monitoring by Israeli authorities. 

Egypt also maintains a strict military blockade with no permitted passage on their side of the border.

[Sir Slash]

I cannot buy the idea Arabs can't leave Gaza. I believe thousand crossed over to Israel everyday to work in Israel. The Israeli blockade was to prevent weapons and explosives from getting into Gaza and only then has been clearly NOT successful. The idea you can't get out since Hamas took over in 2007 is just silly. Egypt allowed thousands out last time this happened for humanitarian reasons and Israel has always allowed Arabs to live and emigrate to and from the nation as long as they are not known members of a terrorist group or threat to the state. They live in Gaza because they want to live there.

Great article Trip! 2% Gun ownership in Israel? Incredible. 

[Gusington]

^Gaza's Arab and Muslim neighbors do not look kindly upon the Palestinians themselves.

[JasonPratt]

That work program was a big reason (reportedly) why Israeli intelligence thought Hamas would just do more 'training' this year: launching an actual attack would be economic suicide at the very least.

One could of course still call it the world's largest prison, with work furloughs -- not sure about the details there.  With the meanest gang in charge of the prisoners and keeping them from getting much positive done.


Thanks for the specific 'safe zone' designations, SirAndrew.  All I saw was the brief post from (apparently?) Netanyahu twice emphasizing get out before you get hurt.

[Anguille]

I cannot buy the idea Arabs can't leave Gaza. I believe thousand crossed over to Israel everyday to work in Israel.

They mostly come from the West Bank.

[Sir Slash]

I am well aware. Things got so bad there the Israelis had to build a wall to keep Palestinians form coming over and killing people. Terrorists take advantage of people trying to legit work and support their families by killing Israelis causing them to not let near so many come over afterwards. Which in turn causes more poverty in the West Bank and makes it easier to recruit more terrorists.

We knew two brothers who lived in the West Bank and refused to join Islamic Jihad. They were both targeted for assassination by them for being traitors. Fortunately with the help of some Christians they were friendly with, they were able to get out of the country to Germany and safety. The Palestinian Authority would do nothing to help them. 'Tis a sad state when the Holy Land is so Unholy.

[GDS_Starfury]

I fear that Israel is just not going to give a fuck about global opinion on this one.  as others have said, they've been sanctioned, blamed and gotten all kinds of flak.  this is the one where the thinking is that if we're gonna get the blame anyway just do what they think needs be done.

[JasonPratt]

Caring about global opinion got them into this. Can't say I blame them for trashing global opinion and setting it on fire.

Ben Shapiro's "I am a Jew" speech was rather good, the other day. The whole show was very much about holding up the evil and pointing to it, but the prologue and epilogue was posted later.

Not much politicizing, if I recall correctly; if so I'll take it down.

[JasonPratt]

More flexible and hopefully precise than a battleship:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-us-navy-carrier-strike-group-is-now-in-place-to-stop-anyone-from-making-the-israel-hamas-war-any-worse-than-it-already-is/ar-AA1i0EWa?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=ce62d7c890844b05ab18e3ff3247348a&ei=48