Israel

[Jarhead0331]

Analysis of Hamas Op Orders.

[GDS_Starfury]

[GDS_Starfury]

[Groggy]

https://twitter.com/tallyman2023/status/1713780418745622754

never forget 

These images were used to support a narrative that Palestinians were celebrating the attacks, but it's important to recognize that these celebrations were not representative of the entire Palestinian population and were not widely endorsed.

[Tripoli]

https://twitter.com/tallyman2023/status/1713780418745622754

never forget 

These images were used to support a narrative that Palestinians were celebrating the attacks, but it's important to recognize that these celebrations were not representative of the entire Palestinian population and were not widely endorsed.

I believe the evidence is  that the post-9/11 celebrations in the Palestinian areas were in fact representative of the majority of the Palestinians. To begin, it is undeniable that Palestinian public support for terrorism is widespread. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence): 
"A July 2001 poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy & Survey Research (PSR) found that 58 percent of Palestinians supported armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel and 92 percent supported armed confrontations against the Israeli army in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. A May 2002 poll by the center found that support for bombings of civilians inside Israel dropped to 52%, but support for armed attacks against Israeli settlers remained "very high" at 89 percent. Support for armed attacks against soldiers stood at 92 percent. A poll after the 2003 Maxim restaurant suicide bombing, in which 20 Israelis were killed, concluded that 75 percent of Palestinians supported the attack, with support higher "in the Gaza Strip (82%) compared to the West Bank (70%), in refugee camps (84%) compared to towns and villages (69%), among women (79%) compared to men (71%), among the young (78%) compared to the old (66%), among students (81%) compared to professionals (33%), and among supporters of Hamas (92%) compared to supporters of Fateh (69%)".  SO based on this, support for terrorism against civilians was generally approved by Palesinians in 2001.

Moving to the 9/11 attacks specifically, in Brown, Cameron. "THE SHOT SEEN AROUND THE WORLD: THE MIDDLE EAST REACTS TO SEPTEMBER 11TH." CIAO: Columbia International Affairs Online. Last modified December 2001. https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/meria/brc01_01.pdf., polling after 9/11 shows considerable support for the attack.
"One of the most fascinating findings was the response to the question: "If it is proven that the party responsible for the attacks in New York and Washington is of Arab-Islamic descent, should these groups be seen as representing Arabs and Muslims as a whole?" Fifty percent of the respondents answered yes (54 percent in the Gaza Strip),
and only 42 percent said no. Further, only 25 percent of the respondents agreed that "the United States [is] justified in attacking those parties responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington," while nearly 70 percent disagreed. On the other hand, only 26 percent of those surveyed believed the attack was consistent with Islamic Shari'a, while 64
percent disagreed. As far as the ramifications for the attacks were concerned, Palestinians seemed quite split, with 43 percent holding the opinion that the attacks "are consistent with Arab interests" while 47 percent disagreed."

While this data does not show overwhelming support for the 9/11 attacks among Palestinians, it does show, either a very significant minority or a slight majority appear to support the attacks.  There is other polling from the era I could dig up, but that will have to wait until later today.

[Sir Slash]

Very true. To the Muslim-Fanaticals, Israel is the, 'Little Satan' and the U.S. is the, 'Great Satan'. Wahabi-ism has taught for many years in the West Bank and Gaza the Palestinians to hate the West and kill Jews. It begins in their Elementary Schools.

[JasonPratt]

In this case two things can be true at once: Palestinians (among other Muslim ethnic groups) widely supported the 9-11 attack, but this support was not representative of the Palestinian people as a whole. One might suppose some of the support was more a case of being sure to fit in, to protect themselves; but one might suppose some of the opposition was also a case of protective covering.

Anyway, even though I regard that celebration as morally reprehensible, they have the freedom to do so as protected (but not granted) by the US Constitution. Just like the Hamas supporters today. And other demonstrations I regard as morally reprehensible. Many of them would regard me as morally reprehensible in turn, so that's fair.

That doesn't mean everyone supporting Hamas or 9-11 really understood the implications of what they were supporting. Rational action is a fundamental characteristic of persons, but that doesn't mean people are always competent at applying it, even when they're supposed to be.


(I'm a bit salty this morning from having been taking notes on an article written by someone who thinks if Justice Himself brings all doers of injustice to do only justice instead forevermore, then that's false justice; unlike Justice Himself choosing for at least some creatures to necessarily only do injustice and never do true justice forevermore, including injustice toward Justice Himself, which Justice Himself regards as the fullest expression of the chief goal of Justice that those creatures should truly honor justice. This has some relevance to Islamic theology generally -- a comparison this professor of philosophy and theology, teaching other people for many decades now at professional institutions, would probably be insulted by. He states he doesn't and shouldn't even want Justice Himself to bring all creatures to do justice, as that would be horribly unjust against victims of their injustice and against the cry of the human heart for justice!     He's actually a very kind-hearted person, who doesn't understand what in the actual hell he's saying or teaching or even teaching against in some cases.)

[Jarhead0331]

I think we need to redouble our efforts to keep the thread focused on the tactical and strategic situation in the region. I know that everybody feels very strongly about this conflict, including myself, and it is pretty clear that although many of us view the conflict through a similar lens, not everyone is in complete agreement, so we need to try to be respectful of that. Certainly, there is so much cross-over and there is much that many of us would like to say and discuss, but we need to continue following the no RPFM rule as best as we can. Most of us will stray at one point or another, but lets think twice before posting and try not to lose focus.

Thanks! 

[Gusington]

U.S. Marines and Navy continue moving assets into the region:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/politics/us-marines-pentagon-israel/index.html

[W8taminute]

Guys this forum does an excellent job keeping sensitive topics under control.  There is only one other forum that is equally if not more effective in keeping things civil and that's the civ fanatics forums. 

Somehow over there people have lock down drag down discussions on religion but keep it respectful and from escalating out of control. 

Now the community here is far more superior knowledge-wise, gaming-wise, and just plain grogginess-wise.  Surely we can keep it civil while at the same time keeping it real. 

Which means stay on target...I mean topic. 

Oh and here is a little Star Wars for you because you know, it's me. 

[GDS_Starfury]

missile hits pali hostpital and kills several dozen.
world blames the IDF because why not.
missile turns out to be one fired by hamas that fell short.
most news just goes to the next story with no correction because Jews.

[GDS_Starfury]

dumb fucks almost hit the Al-Aqsa mosque the other day as well.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1714379637839573451

[SirAndrewD]

missile hits pali hostpital and kills several dozen.
world blames the IDF because why not.
missile turns out to be one fired by hamas that fell short.
most news just goes to the next story with no correction because Jews.

Yeah, it won't matter if the IDF did it or not, the Arab world won't buy it.

The PNA representative to the UN directly called Netanyahu a liar and claims the IDF spokesperson tweeted that the IDF bombed the hospital because it had a Hamas HQ inside.   They deleted the tweet but the PNA claims to still have it.  I've not seen any media outlet able to confirm that.

Jordan and Egypt have cancelled the peace summit with the PNA and US in protest.

[GDS_Starfury]

and thats one of the many reasons I have almost zero sympathy for palestinians

[SirAndrewD]

Newsmax reports that the hospital strike was a single explosion followed by a massive secondary.

The IDF spokesperson has said they'll provide all the telemetry data of the Islamic Jihad rockets but they will not allow any neutral investigation of the impact site.

They're also providing data of all air combat activity at the time showing there was only one combat sortie in progress and did not strike anywhere close to the hospital.