Israel

[W8taminute]

I read somewhere that generators are required to vent air into the tunnels.  Generators powered by diesel.  Take the diesel away and the vermin will be forced to the surface for lack of air.

[JasonPratt]

and this is just an year old cheep OSINT China toy, now estimate what an IDF 'DARPA' thing could do to find the hostages dungeons

"SEND THE ROBOT LOCUSTS OVER TO GAZA FOR A CHANGE!" -- North Korea 

[FarAway Sooner]

Anti-semitism has been on the rise in the USA for a while now.  Without in any way meaning to make light of the problem, I think it's been on the rise even faster than anti-everything-else-ism.  As is the case with a lot of such intolerance, much of it is "dog whistle racism" these days.

Of course, not all calls for Israeli restraint or for an end to US unqualified military assistance to Israel represents anti-semitism.  There is widespread debate on what Israel can do that won't create as many problems as it solves.  There is also the age-old "ends versus the means" debate that has been around for thousands of years.  Lastly, there is also widespread debate about whether Palestinian civilians are willing supporters of Hamas, or simply terrified bystanders afraid of getting killed themselves. 

The truth in all of these things is probably somewhere in the middle, but I do not know enough to say with much confidence where it is.

All of which makes it more likely to get heat than light when we discuss what the path forward should be.  I'm all for a path forward that tries to strike a balance between eliminating Hamas, safeguarding Israeli military lives, and trying not to harm Palestinian innocents.  As is the case in so much low-intensity conflict, it will be pretty easy (militarily) for the Israelis to go in but much harder (politically) for them to achieve what they want to after they go in.

[Jarhead0331]

Anti-semitism has been on the rise in the USA for a while now.  Without in any way meaning to make light of the problem, I think it's been on the rise even faster than anti-everything-else-ism.  As is the case with a lot of such intolerance, much of it is "dog whistle racism" these days.

Of course, not all calls for Israeli restraint or for an end to US unqualified military assistance to Israel represents anti-semitism.  There is widespread debate on what Israel can do that won't create as many problems as it solves.  There is also the age-old "ends versus the means" debate that has been around for thousands of years.  Lastly, there is also widespread debate about whether Palestinian civilians are willing supporters of Hamas, or simply terrified bystanders afraid of getting killed themselves. 

The truth in all of these things is probably somewhere in the middle, but I do not know enough to say with much confidence where it is.

All of which makes it more likely to get heat than light when we discuss what the path forward should be.  I'm all for a path forward that tries to strike a balance between eliminating Hamas, safeguarding Israeli military lives, and trying not to harm Palestinian innocents.  As is the case in so much low-intensity conflict, it will be pretty easy (militarily) for the Israelis to go in but much harder (politically) for them to achieve what they want to after they go in.

Correction...antisemitism is on the rise around the world, not just in the United States. It seems to be just about everywhere.

I agree that calls for Israeli restraint and questions over the US economic and military backing of Israel are not always, in and of themselves, antisemitic, and the debate on these issues is important. However, I think any discussion on these issues that isn't antisemitic must start with the acknowledgement that Israel does show tremendous restraint, does expose itself to risk by engaging in measures aimed at reducing unnecessary collateral damage and that Palestinian civilian losses are largely driven by the nature of Hamas strategy which purposely puts its own civilians in harms way with the express intent of causing large casualty counts.

In order to win, all Hamas needs to do is survive long enough for there to be enough destruction that the rest of the world forces Israel to disengage. It truly is an almost impossible military situation for Israel in my view.

[Gusington]

Also don't forget the requirement that Israel does have a right to exist...which many states and non-states around the world do not acknowledge.

[Jarhead0331]

Also don't forget the requirement that Israel does have a right to exist...which many states and non-states around the world do not acknowledge.

Yes. Very true. Especially when they say things like, "Free Palestine" and "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free!". People don't seem to stop and think exactly what that means...and if they do, and still say it, that is even more troubling.

[MOS:96B2P]

I read somewhere that generators are required to vent air into the tunnels.  Generators powered by diesel.  Take the diesel away and the vermin will be forced to the surface for lack of air.

The news reported that food and medicine was sent into Gaza at the Egyptian crossing but not fuel. Israel allegedly does not want fuel to go in with other aid. If Hamas needs fuel for generators to keep lights and air on in their tunnels this makes sense. With Israel's SIGINT capabilities they are probably intercepting Hamas discussions about the situation in the tunnels.

I now expect a lot of reporting about how fuel is critically needed for hospital generators. Power for incubators is gone, innocent children and babies will die unless fuel is sent now... Unfortunate that if fuel is sent it will be used by Hamas.

[GDS_Starfury]

As is the case in so much low-intensity conflict,

what low intensity conflict?

[GDS_Starfury]

I now expect a lot of reporting about how fuel is critically needed for hospital generators. Power for incubators is gone, innocent children and babies will die unless fuel is sent now... Unfortunate that if fuel is sent it will be used by Hamas.

and this is the problem that gets blamed on Israel.  the world ignores the fact that hamas will use anything they can for themselves first while blaming Israel for all their problems. it sucks to say it but either way those babies are dead and 100% hamas's fault.

not that that will matter in the worlds ignorant opinion.

[Gusington]

I was gonna type that this 'conflict looks pretty high intensity to me.' And once the IDF goes into Gaza it will be extremely high intensity urban fighting.

[MOS:96B2P]

Also don't forget the requirement that Israel does have a right to exist...which many states and non-states around the world do not acknowledge.

The Palestinian, Israeli situation if often talked about as if it was basically about the land. Land for peace etc. But it is also about the existence of a Jewish state. I admit I did not appreciate this fact until this last week or so. In this light, the genocidal actions by Hamas on October 7th make more sense. Hamas, their supporters, apologists etc have no plans to live side by side with any Jewish state. Ever. Period.

This probably doesn't leave Israel with a lot of choices in what must be done. The tactics of how it is done but not the end state.

[steve58]

I read somewhere that generators are required to vent air into the tunnels.  Generators powered by diesel.  Take the diesel away and the vermin will be forced to the surface for lack of air.

The news reported that food and medicine was sent into Gaza at the Egyptian crossing but not fuel. Israel allegedly does not want fuel to go in with other aid. If Hamas needs fuel for generators to keep lights and air on in their tunnels this makes sense. With Israel's SIGINT capabilities they are probably intercepting Hamas discussions about the situation in the tunnels.

I now expect a lot of reporting about how fuel is critically needed for hospital generators. Power for incubators is gone, innocent children and babies will die unless fuel is sent now... Unfortunate that if fuel is sent it will be used by Hamas.

IDF says Hamas is sitting on 500,000+ liters of fuel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas

[MOS:96B2P]

I read somewhere that generators are required to vent air into the tunnels.  Generators powered by diesel.  Take the diesel away and the vermin will be forced to the surface for lack of air.

The news reported that food and medicine was sent into Gaza at the Egyptian crossing but not fuel. Israel allegedly does not want fuel to go in with other aid. If Hamas needs fuel for generators to keep lights and air on in their tunnels this makes sense. With Israel's SIGINT capabilities they are probably intercepting Hamas discussions about the situation in the tunnels.

I now expect a lot of reporting about how fuel is critically needed for hospital generators. Power for incubators is gone, innocent children and babies will die unless fuel is sent now... Unfortunate that if fuel is sent it will be used by Hamas.

IDF says Hamas is sitting on 500,000+ liters of fuel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas

The linked article includes a photo of fuel tanks. If these are Hamas fuel tanks the IDF must be intentionally avoiding hitting them. I wonder what that's about.

[GDS_Starfury]

restraint if its true.

[Jarhead0331]

I read somewhere that generators are required to vent air into the tunnels.  Generators powered by diesel.  Take the diesel away and the vermin will be forced to the surface for lack of air.

The news reported that food and medicine was sent into Gaza at the Egyptian crossing but not fuel. Israel allegedly does not want fuel to go in with other aid. If Hamas needs fuel for generators to keep lights and air on in their tunnels this makes sense. With Israel's SIGINT capabilities they are probably intercepting Hamas discussions about the situation in the tunnels.

I now expect a lot of reporting about how fuel is critically needed for hospital generators. Power for incubators is gone, innocent children and babies will die unless fuel is sent now... Unfortunate that if fuel is sent it will be used by Hamas.

IDF says Hamas is sitting on 500,000+ liters of fuel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas

The linked article includes a photo of fuel tanks. If these are Hamas fuel tanks the IDF must be intentionally avoiding hitting them. I wonder what that's about.

PR. If the oil is there and purposely being withheld by Hamas from supplying civilian services, then it is Hamas who is depriving the people. If, on the other hand, Israel destroys it, then it is they who are depriving the people. The oil has greater strategic value to Israel just sitting there in reserve, than if they destroyed it.