War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition...what's stopping you?

[Martok]

I love the game's concept, but I'll freely admit to being thoroughly intimidated by it.  I own two GG titles already, and even the (relatively) simpler of the two (World at War: A World Divided) threatens to overwhelm me with its complexity and UI.  I can scarcely imagine tackling a monster like WITP:AE, which by virtually all accounts is an order of magnitude more difficult to learn & play. 

[spelk]

I would love a more guided approach into the game, either by a player or a written/video tutorial.
There are some older video tutorials out there, but they -again- explain only what does what, not how to conduct operations or execute plans.

This is my big bugbear about nearly all Grand Strategic Games often their intro's or tutorials are purely centered on mechanics, and hardly any of them take you through a playthrough, beginning, middle and end game thought processes.

Ultimately, you want to know "what decisions" are to be made, and "what are the consequences" of making them. If they spelt those issues out first, then described how you make the decisions using mechanics perhaps things would be a bit smoother.

I think this is where AAR's can help, if the player knows the game, and can describe the thought processes and context of each decision made.

[Herman Hum]

If the AE version of WiTP had received the UI love that WiTE has, then I'd be a happier bunny playing it. WiTE isn't a shining example of how to do things, but, it does have several layers of information, that if you want you can drill down into, but if you dont' or you don't have the time to, you don't have to. Therefore, the player has a choice as to how "deep" or "groggy" he wants to go into it.

I disagree.  Neither WitP nor WitE have a single functional hotkey button.  The hotkeys bring up all manner of displays and reports just fine, but not a single instance whereby you can actually send an order to a unit.  i.e. move, attack, ANYTHING 

Everywhere you go, you are chasing little arrow buttons or boxes.  It's like the programmers decided to totally ignore the device with which they are actually programming the game (the keyboard).  :(

[spelk]

I disagree.  Neither WitP nor WitE have a single functional hotkey button.  The hotkeys bring up all manner of displays and reports just fine, but not a single instance whereby you can actually send an order to a unit.  i.e. move, attack, ANYTHING 

Everywhere you go, you are chasing little arrow buttons or boxes.  It's like the programmers decided to totally ignore the device with which they are actually programming the game (the keyboard).  :(

Well to be fair, most games nowadays require mouse input. I think the days of keyboard only control is long gone. I'd settle for intuitive mouse control over a pure keyboard shortcut solution anyday. There are just so many more things you can do, intuitively, with a mouse that would take extra keys to be remembered to do it soley with a keyboard.

Oh and while we're at it, stick Harpoon in the category of naval games that need a proper modern overhaul! ;)

[Herman Hum]

I disagree.  Neither WitP nor WitE have a single functional hotkey button.  The hotkeys bring up all manner of displays and reports just fine, but not a single instance whereby you can actually send an order to a unit.  i.e. move, attack, ANYTHING 

Everywhere you go, you are chasing little arrow buttons or boxes.  It's like the programmers decided to totally ignore the device with which they are actually programming the game (the keyboard).  :(

Well to be fair, most games nowadays require mouse input. I think the days of keyboard only control is long gone. I'd settle for intuitive mouse control over a pure keyboard shortcut solution anyday. There are just so many more things you can do, intuitively, with a mouse that would take extra keys to be remembered to do it soley with a keyboard.

Oh and while we're at it, stick Harpoon in the category of naval games that need a proper modern overhaul! ;)

Very true about Harpoon, but at least Harpoon has functional hotkeys so that a player can choose to use them in addition to the mouse commands.  A mouse is a very useful tool, but should not totally replace every single hotkey.

[jomni]

I despise hotkeys.  I can't be bothered memorizing a set for each game I play. 

I think text / number input is a good addition to WITP.   WITE has it implemented in some areas.

[spelk]

As a strategy gamer I can't believe were having a discussion about making a game's UI better, and then the requests are for more hotkey options or even text/numeral input. With bog standard strategy titles, they have modern UI's which can be a combination of intuitive mouse gestures and keystrokes.. we don't usually have this sort of discussion with modern titles, because they're adopting current techniques of interfacing with a game, simple, once learned and adopted can be transferred across games. You want the UI to facilitate the user in playing the game.

WitP could do with some updating, even if it only gets as far as the current WitE standard.

I'm not eschewing the use of keyboard shortcuts, they can be very useful, but you don't have to design your game around making every move or action solely through a keyboard. Even roguelikes nowadays are beginning to embrace mouse and tablet stroking gestures.

Unity of Command is almost effortless in its use. It gets the UI right. WitP could use some basic UI re-design, to make it more accessible - along with a re-structuring of the information to hand. Some of the logistics setup's are positively arcane and amateur in their design.

We're in an era where some companies are developing good wargames with good UI. We want to encourage that, just because the genre is niche doesn't mean it can't become more open and accessible. Battle Academy, Panzer Corps, Commander:The Great War.. these titles have well designed UI's that you just don't notice (most of the time) as you enjoy play. That's what we need for our older titles, surely? If we're doing idealist discussion.

Anyway, to answer the OP, nothing stopped me from getting WitP:AE, because I bought it a long while ago when it was expensive, but Pacific theatre operations games are very thin on the ground, so you sort of have to go with it, and try and wrestle with the UI to play it. I only got a little way in, and faltered. I wish I could devote my life to accomodating a UI, to get my Pacific theatre kicks, but I can't. Which is often why you see WitP fans play nothing else. They devote their entire gaming time to it. I simply can't commit that much, or I don't want it that much. I want wargaming with interesting decisions and outcomes to make, rather than year long training on a UI that isn't up to the job of managing the entire Pacific war. I guess it's down to how much you want to like it. How much effort youre willing to put in. How much you can endure.

/rant over

[Nefaro]

I need hotkeys for certain commands that are repeated a lot, especially ones with buttons in an out-of-the-way corner of the screen.   The fast onset of carpal tunnel is taking it's toll for those repetitive mouse movements to the same screen location, on the side, over & over.  I still prefer using the mouse for most everything but I'd really prefer most commands also have an extra keyboard equivalent for redundancy, in case a certain action starts making my tendons saw further into my nerve.   ;)

Spelk is right about having the discussion of making poor UIs better in our hobby - it shouldn't be happening in the last few years.  We've seen software interfaces improve by leaps & bounds in the past decade and more.  I'm reminded of this nearly every time I run an old game since many have annoying interfaces.  Nowadays even most of the indie games have at least decent UIs.  Let's hope that any new hardcore grog & niche strategy games continue to get in the now.   So we don't have this discussion much more.   ;D

[MengJiao]

I think that the reason it takes years to play WitP is due primarily to the need to click everything a zillion times in order to perform the most mundane tasks; like trying to type out an encyclopaedia with one mouse click for every letter.  :(

I haven't played these games, but this sounds absolutely unforgivable to me.

Oh yes indeed.

Imagine, if you will, a window full of settings for each unit/base/whatevah which consist almost wholly of number values.  And the only way you can change them is by repeatedly clicking on the up or down arrow button to adjust it one numeric unit at a time.   Need to move that air patrol's default altitude up a few thousand feet or unload some fuel off a tanker??  Click click click clickity click on the arrow button.  Then move on to the next setting.  There are LOTS of arrow buttons, too.  :o

The detail is excellent.  The UI not so.   :'(

But after playing th game for years against a good opponent, you don't worry so much about the interface as you do about how to set up your CAP and other operational decisions.

I agree that the game could have been designed better and had just as much detail, but I guess I was happy with the options the game offered.  Of couse, I also got tired of it all -- but eventually I get tired of most games after a few years.

[Huw the Poo]

I think Spelk is absolutely right.  It's one of my complaints with Linux actually...it's my preferred OS but let's face it, it's designed by a bunch of geeks who'd rather be programming cool features than making it look good or intuitive to use.  Same thing with wargames.

[SgtRock]

As a strategy gamer I can't believe were having a discussion about making a game's UI better

Really? the UI is GG's War in the East is light years better than War in the Pacific AE. That said, you get used to it after the first 1000 turns or so!  :-\

[spelk]

As a strategy gamer I can't believe were having a discussion about making a game's UI better

Really? the UI is GG's War in the East is light years better than War in the Pacific AE. That said, you get used to it after the first 1000 turns or so!  :-\

Well, exactly my point. I was sort of making that point that if WitP:AE could be "updated" to the level of WitE I would have a better chance of making any headway into the game.

My quote you mentioned above, was only part of the sentance - I was pulling a shocked face -  :o - to the comment about how there isn't enough hotkeys in WitE. You can't perform a move nor an attack solely through a hotkey.

I think there isn't a cat in hell's chance of any of the older wargames getting modern UI updates, the majority of them never get updates or patches of any sort anyway. I think the best bet is to look to the future, and take heart in what good design has been released recently in the wargaming niche. At least there is hope that talented game devs do exist in the wargame arena, and we're not reliant on barely revamped iterations of stuff from the early 90's!  ???

[MengJiao]

I think that the reason it takes years to play WitP is due primarily to the need to click everything a zillion times in order to perform the most mundane tasks; like trying to type out an encyclopaedia with one mouse click for every letter.  :(

I haven't played these games, but this sounds absolutely unforgivable to me.

Oh yes indeed.

Imagine, if you will, a window full of settings for each unit/base/whatevah which consist almost wholly of number values.  And the only way you can change them is by repeatedly clicking on the up or down arrow button to adjust it one numeric unit at a time.   Need to move that air patrol's default altitude up a few thousand feet or unload some fuel off a tanker??  Click click click clickity click on the arrow button.  Then move on to the next setting.  There are LOTS of arrow buttons, too.  :o

The detail is excellent.  The UI not so.   :'(

But after playing th game for years against a good opponent, you don't worry so much about the interface as you do about how to set up your CAP and other operational decisions.

I agree that the game could have been designed better and had just as much detail, but I guess I was happy with the options the game offered.  Of couse, I also got tired of it all -- but eventually I get tired of most games after a few years.

Looks like I might be getting back into WitPAE PBEM at least briefly.  I'll be the Japs, just before Coral Sea.  At least it will all be over pretty fast.  One way or the other.

  I will try my usual cunning plan: say, "I'll be the Japs if I get to redesign the scenario slightly so that I get Air field construction units, Fighters that can shoot down B-17s and some nice amphibious assault ships with barrage balloons and lots of AA."

  They don't call me MengJiao for nothin'

[MengJiao]

If you can find a good PBEM opponent who doesn't bail, disappear or slow in returning game turns (not easy to find), the game can be rather fun.  I played one guy for about a year and a half.  Mostly doing one turn every day.  Sometimes 3 or 4 on the weekend. 

Really puts you in the boots of the real commanders.  You quickly see that the Pacific War was just as much about logistics as it was about combat.   

  Yes, PBEM is really the way to go.  You may be blundering around...but perhaps your opponent is as well.  Or NOT.  I have been trounced by my opponent about 5 times (thrice in a Grand Campaign that allows lots of Political Points to both sides) and twice at Guadalcanal.  I think I won Coral Sea once as the Japs and once as the Allies.  And Maybe I won Guadalcanal once as the Japs and once as the allies.  These were all modfied scenarios.  Modified by me to give me as the Japs a better chance.  How wrong was I.  I was how wrong?  very wrong.  Still it was a lot of fun.

[Toonces]

I picked back up my Grand Campaign last Friday night.  I'm only in mid-March 42 right now.

When I left off I had stockpiled quite the armada of troops, and I had all 4 of my CVs in the Fijis and Australia.  I recaptured Espiritu Santo without much trouble so I decided to push on to Guadalcanal.  With hindsight being what it is, I know getting Lunga early is a good play.  Besides, the Japanese are freaking killing me all over Indo and he can't have CVs everywhere, right?

So I moved on up.  I've landed a force on Guadalcanal, but for some reason my main transport TF keeps retiring without unloading...I have no idea why the game is doing that.  Meantime, though, my CVs have ambushed a butt ton of Japanese ships in and around Guadalcanal and Munda.  My last turn I sank something like 10 ships.  God, that felt good.  After the beating I've been taking it was so damn gratifying to see my guys just slaughter some Japanese shipping.   8)