News from Ukraine Conflict

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Yes, but they don't have the mighty SAS.

[LongBlade]

Speaking of which, the Dutch have issued a warning that this is Russia's "last chance" to give them access. What that means is quite beyond my ability to speculate.

https://news.yahoo.com/dutch-prime-warns-putin-last-chance-help-recover-162722436.html

"He has one last chance to show he means to help," Rutte said of Putin minutes after what he described as a "very intense" conversation with the Russian leader. He added that the leaders of Germany, Britain and Australia shared his view.

[Staggerwing]

Almost 2/3rds of those killed were Dutch nationals. It may be a small country but it has it's fingers in just about everybody's economic pie giving it behind-the-scenes clout. It's influence within the EU is no doubt the reason that there are so many candles and flowers left outside the Dutch Embassy in Moscow, interspaced with signs that say 'Please forgive us'. The only thing that could have been a worse outcome for Putin would be if the plane were full of Brits, Germans, or Americans.

[LongBlade]

Almost 2/3rds of those killed were Dutch nationals. It may be a small country but it has it's fingers in just about everybody's economic pie giving it behind-the-scenes clout. It's influence within the EU is no doubt the reason that there are so many candles and flowers left outside the Dutch Embassy in Moscow, interspaced with signs that say 'Please forgive us'. The only thing that could have been a worse outcome for Putin would be if the plane were full of Brits, Germans, or Americans.

Thank God the Dutch have the backbone to stand up to Russia.

[Staggerwing]

Well, I don't think there will be any Dutch paras dropping onto the Kremlin or anything but the likelihood of even more severe sanctions is pretty high and when the economic pain gets to be too great Putin's rich cronies are going to stop returning his calls.

[Centurion40]

Well, I don't think there will be any Dutch paras dropping onto the Kremlin or anything but the likelihood of even more severe sanctions is pretty high and when the economic pain gets to be too great Putin's rich cronies are going to stop returning his calls.

It will be seriously tempting to splash the next Bear that violates Dutch airspace.

[Yskonyn]

Well, I don't think there will be any Dutch paras dropping onto the Kremlin or anything but the likelihood of even more severe sanctions is pretty high and when the economic pain gets to be too great Putin's rich cronies are going to stop returning his calls.

It will be seriously tempting to splash the next Bear that violates Dutch airspace.

He he, so true! :)

If the rebels are so resistent in letting the foreign examiners access the crash site I have a hard time understanding why they have no military escort from Ukraine.
Ukraine blames Russia while Russia says it doesn't know anything about it and doesn't back the seperatists either. So why not force those rebels out of that particular area? Or at least secure the site by force?
Because Ukraine doesn't want to risk a full blown offensive by Putin and will not allow foreign army present on their soil either. So it All stays in the realm of diplomacy and rethorics...

Its all too late now anyway, many bodies have been taken from the site along with their posesssions to a place God knows where...
I sure hope these people are properly repartiated back home.

[LongBlade]

Well, I don't think there will be any Dutch paras dropping onto the Kremlin or anything but the likelihood of even more severe sanctions is pretty high and when the economic pain gets to be too great Putin's rich cronies are going to stop returning his calls.

It will be seriously tempting to splash the next Bear that violates Dutch airspace.

He he, so true! :)

If the rebels are so resistent in letting the foreign examiners access the crash site I have a hard time understanding why they have no military escort from Ukraine.
Ukraine blames Russia while Russia says it doesn't know anything about it and doesn't back the seperatists either. So why not force those rebels out of that particular area? Or at least secure the site by force?
Because Ukraine doesn't want to risk a full blown offensive by Putin and will not allow foreign army present on their soil either. So it All stays in the realm of diplomacy and rethorics...

Its all too late now anyway, many bodies have been taken from the site along with their posesssions to a place God knows where...
I sure hope these people are properly repartiated back home.

Disgusting behavior by Russia.

I hope the bodies are cared for with respect and returned to their loved ones as soon as possible.

[panzerde]

Apparently someone gave Putin a copy of "How Not to Respond to an International Crisis" for his birthday and he's taken it as a cookbook. Either that or he's completely lost control of the rebels, who are obviously led by bumpkins.

This just keeps getting worse and worse. I can't imagine the anguish and fury of the families of the people who are having the bodies of their loved ones treated this way. It makes me want to write things that are very politically incorrect.

[mirth]

Well, I don't think there will be any Dutch paras dropping onto the Kremlin or anything but the likelihood of even more severe sanctions is pretty high and when the economic pain gets to be too great Putin's rich cronies are going to stop returning his calls.

I wouldn't mind it if someone's special forces eliminated a rebel SAM launcher or two, along with the operators.

[GDS_Starfury]

fwiw Im sure whoever pushed the button is not in a happy place right now.

[mirth]

In Soviet Russia, button pushes you.

[Yskonyn]

Kerry claims that the US has proof that the BUK system was coming from Russian soil. Aparently it was part of a convoy of 150 vehicles coming from Russia into eastern Ukraine.
He also claims the US has identified the place where the missile was launched.

This was posted on SteelBeasts from by Stanny with lots of interesting links. Copied here for convenience (link: http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=261096&postcount=12
There has been already an explanation about the IFF feature of the Ukrainian "BUK" SAM sites. The Ukrainian "BUK" could not shoot the Boeing down because as soon as any civilian airplane enters international transit air space over the country the ATC gives him the "Friendly" designation and all air defense sites automatically get all firing systems blocked on this aircraft. Missiles simply won't launch.

So, there are two versions of who actually downed an aircraft and both lead to Russian separatists:

1) "BUK" system seized in one of the Donetsk air defense units, but Ukrainian officials say that only non-operational systems were left there, but they had a working Ukrainian IFF as well, so this version is less likely;
2) Transfer of several "BUK" systems previously seized by Russia during Crimea annexation with IFF removed, through Kerch straight to mainland Russia and then through the gap in the border into Ukraine; This version is more likely;

Videos:

1) "BUK M1" riding near the tragedy area in Snezhnoye, a little before the plane crash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCjK8ZNJQdg

2) "BUK M1" being towed towards Russian border after the plane crash, one missile is missing on the launch rails:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE

Seriously, Ukraine should not be blamed for this accident, this is a pure Russian fault, Ukrainians realized that terrorists possess SAM weapons being able to hit target beyond 4000 m altitudes only several days ago (on July 14th) when this An-26 delivering supplies was shot down near Russian border (altitude 6200 meters):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfu4apcgLeU

First version was that Russian Su-27 fired a missile across the border but now it comes clear that it was one of the same "BUK" launchers that downed B777.

My personal opinion, NATO could launch a SEAD operation along the Russian border to destroy the "denied" SAMs (which are not Russian as they always claim), there are F-16 from Spandahlem stationed now in Lask, Poland that specialize in SEAD duties, there are F-16 from Aviano there too, with the help of NATO air power this conflict will be over soon as Ukrainian army is quite capable to finish the ground war on their own. Problem is only the guided precise air strikes (Ukrainian jets cannot conduct night missions, they have no NV, no FLIR, no targeting pods etc.).

AND


"I am following the development of this conflict since the very beginning and must warn all my European colleagues, especially from Central and Eastern Europe - either NATO reacts as it did in Bosnia in 1995 or the situation is going to get much worse.

Putin's ambitions are not ending in Ukraine, but reaching such countries as Baltic States, Poland or Hungary. He wants to re-create some sort of Warsaw Pact or influence zone, and for these purposes he uses so called "denied war", when he's troops and weaponry are de facto on the ground but he denies this. What he does now is transferring all the weaponry Russia seized in Crimea through the gaps in the border, there were: up to 180 tanks T-64B and T-64BV, several dozens 2S1 self propelled artillery vehicles, BM-21 multi missile launchers, "BUK" and S-300 SAMs.

All this weaponry is quite enough for three or four Yugoslavia wars, so either NATO destroys this "denied and non-existent" hardware or it will continue to kill people.

For example, the amount of MANPADs in the area of conflict is insane, I mean each helicopter is usually fired upon by a salvo of 2 or 3 "Igla" manpads, those rebels even don't bother to use RPGs against "soft" targets like BMP or BTR - "Fagot" and "Metis" ATGMs are fired all the time.

Some videos of what is happening there, that might be interesting.

T-64B tank without reactive armor that suffered a frontal "Fagot" ATGM hit and got the turret rotation mechanism blocked, all optics and gun heat shield broken by sniper fire, RPG-26 hit the engine section:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPiigJfjPjY

"Igla-1" manpad pursues Mi-24 Hind (black trail on 0:25):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxJfHOFhHvs

"Igla-S" attack against An-30 reconaissance plane over Slovyansk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FNoSFrCwds

Armored convoy got ambushed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itu5g0V2dZI

ATGM launches at Ukrainian armored units:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IKsovaI9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jE7wrNg1rY

Damaged Ukrainian T-64BV tank, again turret rotation mechanism got blocked after RPG/ATGM hit, tank commander committed suicide, blown himself with grenade to avoid capture by rebels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MEjwv7t8JA

Ukrainian artillery working:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u1i6h7LJGM

Russian BM-21 multiple rocket launcher fires into Ukrainian territory (Russians deny this, say that this launcher is not theirs):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcyN2ymxXm8 "

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

fwiw Im sure whoever pushed the button is not in a happy place right now.

They have a reservation set in Lubyanca.

[bayonetbrant]

So this is entertaining

http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-government-wikipedia-2014-7

A political battle has broken out on Wikipedia over an entry relating to the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, with the Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing "terrorists" with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner.
A Twitter bot which monitors edits made to the online encyclopaedia from Russian government IP addresses (unique numbers relating to certain computers or networks) has spotted that changes are being made to a page relating to the crash.

It appears that an internet user from within the All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VGTRK) changed a Russian language version of a page listing civil aviation accidents to say that "The plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers".

That edit replaced text – written just an hour earlier - which said MH17 had been shot down "by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation."

All edits to Wikipedia are permanently logged, with the username and IP address being stored along with the changes they have made.

An automated Twitter bot called congress-edits was created to monitor for changes made from US Congress computers and immediately tweet them. The source code powering that project was released to the public, allowing the creation of RUGovEdits which performs a similar role in Russia.

A tweet today from that account, translated into English, says: "Wikipedia article List of aircraft accidents in civil aviation has been edited by RTR [another name for VGTRK]".

Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on Thursday, on the border with Russia, with 298 people on board. There were no survivors.

Ukraine's interior ministry says the plane was shot down by a missile, while President Obama on Friday afternoon also said that it was likely to have been targeted by separatists.

Mr Obama said that the US does not "want to get ahead of the facts" but added: "A group of separatists cannot shoot down military planes without sophisticated equipment - and that is coming from Russia."

Russian President Vladimir Putin has denied any responsibility, however, telling advisers on Friday that: "certainly, the government over whose territory it occurred is responsible for this terrible tragedy."

If the Russian government has indeed edited the page it will be far from the first time that politically or commercially embarrassing Wikipedia updates have been exposed.

In 2006 United States Congressional staff were found to have edited articles about members of Congress, Microsoft once offered an engineer money to update articles on two competing standards, PR firm Bell Pottinger tweaked articles about its clients and, in 2012, MPs were discovered to have asked their staff to remove criticism about them.