News from Ukraine Conflict

[BanzaiCat]

^

U.S. A-10 Thunderbolds to be temporarily stationed in Poland?

???

[MetalDog]

A look inside the economic effects of the sanctions on Russia.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/putin-lets-consumers-feel-pain-as-russian-slump-deepens/ar-BBhCc9W

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

We live in interesting times

Dammed if we do and dammed if we dont....no matter what we do in the Ukraine there are going to be bad consequences for the West

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31496933

Con

With all respect to the position he held, I see no clear advise in his position. 'Do not send weapons because Russia will take it further than us.'  Ok, so they take Ukraine. Then it's on to the next grab, probably the Baltics if Ukriane was a walk in the park. Same advise 'they will go furtherthan we can handle'. wash, rinse, repeat.

It sounds to me like he is willing to let Russia re-take all the old Soviet territory. Then what?

Many finance managers climb the heirarchy by being good at warning about how things will go wrong. They generally never have any ideas of what can work.

Having a "discussion" will not stop Russian weapons. What matters is capability. NATO needs the capability to crush Russian agression at it's eastern border. End of story. Weapons to Ukraine, once that is in place, may or may not prevent Eastern NATO from getting trashed. Debate that if you like.

He says what I've been saying that this is no longer about Ukraine. This what we get by not reacting to the first Russian aggression on Georgia. There is no political solution to this, apart from capitulation, and unraveling of NATO with all its terrible consequences. Western leaders need to seriously man up, or things are going to get worse. West needs start providing weapons to Ukraine  without saying we are providing weapons. Russia is rubbish when it fight alone.

We are all agreed this is going to get worse ... Period. We have to start thinking about how we will contribute to the potential war effort.

[GDS_Starfury]

ReForGer 15

[Con]

I think you have to give Eastern Ukraine up, its basically a done deal that the Ukrainians are going to get shafted because this is no longer about what is good for them its about clubbing Russia down in a way that doesnt trigger an all out war.

Split Ukraine giving the rebels and Russian all that they have grabbed (then make them choke on it)
Have the US put missile bases and other big expensive and too important to allow then to fall into Russian hands assets in the other NATO countries (bases, airports etc) to demonstrate that there is a resolve to back up rhetoric
Turn Western Ukraine into a 12 month a year massive military exercise area with constant rotating in and out of brigade sized NATO forces on a continuous training regime
Use the political fall out of Russian loss of goodwill to ram through higher defense spending into Germany, UK and other NATO powers
Get the Tartars involved as a partisan force to stir up trouble in Crimea and the Eastern part of the Ukraine to tie down large amounts of Russian military assets.
Encourage the Chinese to view the border areas of Sino/Russian parts of Siberia as part of their cultural heritage and get the China/Russian suspicion of each others motives to paranoid levels again
Wait until the pain on the ordinary Russians is high enough and the Oligarchs have split from Putin and his inner coterie to establish and support a legitimate political opposition to Putin.
And number one thing to do is to avoid fighting Russia on her own turf (it didnt turn out too well for Napoleon and Hitler)

Con

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I think what Sir Sawers is hinting at is something Gus has mentioned several times. The potential goal of splitting NATO. Lets stop beating around the bush. What could cause that? Do western countries have the ability to handle the systemic shock of a big conflict? The impact on the average civilian life would be massive. Would weak politicians try to save their skins when the population would rather throw Eastern Europe to the wolves than live through something like WWII again? What would happen next if NATO did come apart? They would all fall to the Bear apart from the US. In a 100 years, If Russia had the resources of all Europe could the US stand? Would Russia be content behind the oceans? Probably not. Lets keep in mind at some point the nuke missile will be rendered obsolete. It is just a matter of time.

We can wait for the Russian outrage to be big enough to get us standing together. They will try to manage that. Sooner or later they must be forced to back down.

[GDS_Starfury]

I dont think russia could get past Poland.

[pawelj]

I think you have to give Eastern Ukraine up, its basically a done deal that the Ukrainians are going to get shafted because this is no longer about what is good for them its about clubbing Russia down in a way that doesnt trigger an all out war.


And number one thing to do is to avoid fighting Russia on her own turf (it didnt turn out too well for Napoleon and Hitler)

Con

I'm afraid that would be the worst idea, gaining nothing. You let them keep any bit of Ukraine, you relinquish one major moral advantage. What you do is double down by demanding withdrawal from Georgia and Moldova, while they still can in one piece.

Don't be afraid to fight them on their own turf, just make it your own. Hitler and Napoleon failed because they made different mistakes. Napoleon should have stopped in Smolensk for the winter. Hitler lost a war on December 12, when he declared war on USA. Today Russia is all alone, and like a bully needs to be dealt a punch in the nose. It is better now in Ukraine then somewhere else later.

My Churchill quote is more relevant then ever.

[Gusington]

Russia is not as big a threat to NATO right now as Greece is. And the EU. And Russia is loving it.

[pawelj]

Russia is not as big a threat to NATO right now as Greece is. And the EU. And Russia is loving it.

And lets keep it that way by arming Ukraine.

[endfire79]

Con had a point. Russia has 143 million population.  Not much of it lies next to Mongolia and China.  Their rivalry still exists and chinas claims are not dormant.  Putin made a huge gas deal last year with them, he knows he has to placate them.

[endfire79]

And about nuclear missiles going obsolete - how do you suggest?

[GDS_Starfury]

Why do you think the russians hate ABM systems in Poland so much.

[endfire79]

I guess I misunderstood.  I thought Biggs was thinking about something like Star Wars initiatives, I really didn't think we were even near there yet.

[LongBlade]

I really didn't think we were even near there yet.

Israel is knocking small rockets out of the sky with consistency. I suspect we're a lot closer than anyone knows.