Panther Games Command Ops 2 Limited Time Offer Bundle Pack Coming Soon

[magnus]

 I went to both HPS and JT's sites and see no prices marked down and nothing in writing?

[dinsdale]

I bought Kursk '43 from JTS the other day as part of the Rich Hamilton fire sale and went to the HPS site to download the patch.  That lead me to thinking about the Jena patch that Dr. Tiller just released for BOTH the HPS and the JTS versions bringing the larger 2D graphics to the table.  All free and years after these games made either company any real money.  I appreciate them and their work.

I've defended BFC's model in large part although the 3.0 jump in the WW2 games gave me a minor case of the squick.

This is a whole new level and is creating some real cogdiss because I love this system and its games.  I'm probably in because the risk-reward is relatively in good proportion, but, I think I've put my finger on what bothers me:  we don't know what we'll be losing if we don't pay down the road and what we'll get to keep.  BFC hit us at the moment of the patch with the reality that we couldn't have all the cool new 3.0 stuff without the upgrade.  LnL is entirely prospective.  It's a bit more transparent, but I'm OCD about this stuff.  I'm not going to want all y'all to have all the cool things and I won't...even if we never play an on-line game against each other once in our lives.  I want a world in which games are feature-complete, tested, and done when I open the box, take out the 3.5'' disks, crack open the 300 page spiral-bound manual, and imagine how very grand the game before me will be on my brand new 13'' VGA monitor.

I would also like a pony.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

A year ago on the Matrix Store, for digital downloads, the base game which included Ardennes was selling for $59.99, Market Garden was a $29.99 expansion, and Greece was another $29.99 expansion.

Today, for $50 you get those plus North Africa/Med Islands with an upgraded engine. I have serious doubts that Panther Games will be able to produce even 1 engine upgrade per year based on their previous release pacing, but if they do so what, for another $50 you will get a new engine and set of scenarios, purchase 1 or 2 specific modules, or skip the version entirely.

If you want to wait until the new engine has bugs ironed out and a number of patches, then the combined price of all modules will be higher (currently buying separately is $160.)

I don't understand why Battlefront or Panther could get called into question, but games such as Far Cry 4, Assasins Creed x.x etc are simply considered normal annual-ish releases.

Does anyone here expect their copy of EU2 to be brought up to EU4 functionality for free?

[sandman2575]

Does anyone here expect their copy of EU2 to be brought up to EU4 functionality for free?

Is this really a valid comparison?  Each iteration in Pdox's EU franchise represents a whole lot more than an engine upgrade. No one expects to get EU4 for free just 'cause they own EU3, because EU4 is a completely new game.

[Cyrano]

EU2 --> EU4 is a far more significant upgrade than BFC made to anything ever and I'm a huge BFC fan.

I can't speak to, well, any FPS since Quake, although I rather liked Halo and Bad Company: Vietnam.

Again, it's not knowing what one will get for the upgrade that's under my skin.  This, of course, leaves me unable to respond to the reasonable question:  "well, what if they hadn't told you about it?"  As I think I confessed earlier, it's just that this brave new world of patches and versions may be one I wasn't quite ready for.  Entirely a horse on me.  I've no doubt I'll be in before the sale expires and I wish LnL and Panther the best...

Jim

[Grim.Reaper]

EU2 --> EU4 is a far more significant upgrade than BFC made to anything ever and I'm a huge BFC fan.

I can't speak to, well, any FPS since Quake, although I rather liked Halo and Bad Company: Vietnam.

Again, it's not knowing what one will get for the upgrade that's under my skin.  This, of course, leaves me unable to respond to the reasonable question:  "well, what if they hadn't told you about it?"  As I think I confessed earlier, it's just that this brave new world of patches and versions may be one I wasn't quite ready for.  Entirely a horse on me.  I've no doubt I'll be in before the sale expires and I wish LnL and Panther the best...

Jim

Not sure what you mean about knowing what you'll get for your upgrade?  Can you explain this better because I am not understanding this point but maybe I am missing something.  You know now what you'll get with version 2.0, can even try in the free core release.  If your meaning in the next upgrade beyond 2.0 in the future, not sure how anyone can know that at this point with only the first release happening.  Not sure any game would tell you this far in advance on what all the future upgrades will include.

I understand it is a new model for Command Ops and at first I was confused and concerned just like everyone else.  But now that everything seems to be more clear, personally I have no issue with it and can't see how this product is any worse then any other product....can't think of any other product that produces new versions of their product and continues to provide free upgrades to past outdated versions of their product and at no cost.

[panzerde]

I went to both HPS and JT's sites and see no prices marked down and nothing in writing?

Rich is selling these independently on eBay and as far as I know this "sale" has nothing to do with either JTS or HPS. You can not buy these reduced price games from the JTS or HPS websites.

You also can't buy HPS Wagram anymore because I bought the last copy last night.  ;D

[Wolfe1759]

Can't put my finger on it but this CO2 release just doesn't feel right. I'm going to wait until this is all sorted out and we know for sure what the pricing model really is.

This is pretty much how I'm feeling at the moment.

My worry then is that when it is sorted out i.e. comes out of what now is apparently an Early Release / Public Beta phase (announced after a lot of people had purchased the New Release - very bad customer communication) the price will jump up to $160 / £110 at which point I'll just stick with BFTB and all the scenario packs I have for it.

All in all I thought this was going to be a day one purchase, now I'll probably just hold off to see where it is in a year and then just buy new scenario packs  if they look of interest not the re-released versions of what I already have.

[Tuna]

Does anyone here expect their copy of EU2 to be brought up to EU4 functionality for free?

Is this really a valid comparison?  Each iteration in Pdox's EU franchise represents a whole lot more than an engine upgrade. No one expects to get EU4 for free just 'cause they own EU3, because EU4 is a completely new game.

^^^^ what he said.. I downloaded the free core product last night, it looks to me like the same game. I already paid for Bulge and Highway to the Reich.. I really don't feel like spending 50 bucks to buy them again! There is a BIG difference between EU3 and EU4 (never mind 2 - 4)!

[Grim.Reaper]

Does anyone here expect their copy of EU2 to be brought up to EU4 functionality for free?

Is this really a valid comparison?  Each iteration in Pdox's EU franchise represents a whole lot more than an engine upgrade. No one expects to get EU4 for free just 'cause they own EU3, because EU4 is a completely new game.

^^^^ what he said.. I downloaded the free core product last night, it looks to me like the same game. I already paid for Bulge and Highway to the Reich.. I really don't feel like spending 50 bucks to buy them again! There is a BIG difference between EU3 and EU4 (never mind 2 - 4)!

Which is ok....the model they have allows you to determine when you want to jump in with a new version, if ever.  You can keep command ops 1 running with all the current modules, no problem, you just won't get the new additions and if not important to you, than that is ok.  If somewhere down the road you like what's in a new core upgrade, then you either have the option to update your existing scenarios to play with it or just purchase whatever new content is released with the new version.  Either or is fine and a personal choice.

I am probably just getting old, but just not understanding many of these types of points and why this is different than any other game that a new version comes out.....you don't expect EU 3 DLC to work with EU 4 do you?  If you want to keep playing EU 3 content and don't want to upgrade to EU 4 features, you would keep EU 3 installed and play that, but nobody seems to be expecting EU or any other games to keep all their DLC playable across all versions.  But some reason it is coming across as different with command ops...

[dinsdale]

Is this really a valid comparison?  Each iteration in Pdox's EU franchise represents a whole lot more than an engine upgrade. No one expects to get EU4 for free just 'cause they own EU3, because EU4 is a completely new game.

EU2 --> EU4 is a far more significant upgrade than BFC made to anything ever and I'm a huge BFC fan.

I think its a fairly subjective measurement, and something that we all consider when buying a new game. I love the EU series, but the changes have been somewhat incremental if you consider EU2->EU3->Expansions->EU4->DLC.

CM2 was radically different from CM1, CM3 less so, but it was a $10 upgrade IIRC. I found CO1 to be significantly different from the old HHTR/COTA release, CO2 less so. I think the problem is, the Command Ops announced plans seem to be misunderstood/ambiguous when we should simply look at what they put out to determine if it really is a different enough game to want to play.

Again, it's not knowing what one will get for the upgrade that's under my skin.  This, of course, leaves me unable to respond to the reasonable question:  "well, what if they hadn't told you about it?"  As I think I confessed earlier, it's just that this brave new world of patches and versions may be one I wasn't quite ready for.  Entirely a horse on me.  I've no doubt I'll be in before the sale expires and I wish LnL and Panther the best...

Jim

Then I think Lock and Load and Panther need to do a much better job communicating, or you haven't been able to find the information. They have a forum thread with differences introduced in CO2, they would have to do the same with a new engine. Essentially, a new engine is a new game with a new set of features, they need to advertise those differences effectively or no one is going to buy.

Clearly, the communication from L&L/Panther is clearly not being made effectively, maybe its the terminology they are using. Consider each engine 'upgrade' a new game version a la EU2, 3 & 4. Either buy or don't buy based on how much they've crammed into  :)

[Cyrano]

Reaper, you're following me better than you think.

Games used to be released complete, absent patches.  Now they're not and, over their lifetimes, various games are evolved, improved, &c. Just a paradigm shift to which I'm only slowly acclimating...

I absolutely agree, however, that LnL/Panther should have done a far better job of communicating on all this.  The desire to release details like pricing structures, development plans, &C., is strong in this business -- especially given all of us banging on the door outside -- but Battlefront and others have learned it's best to let the howlers howl and then surprise the rest of us when everything's ready.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[Arjuna]

Hi all,

I'm sorry for not chiming in earlier but I've been a tad busy with the release.

I accept the criticism that we should have done a better job communicating how everything works. We now have a pricing policy statement up on LNL that hopefully explains how things work with CO2. You can find that here:
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/threads/co2-pricing-policy.1295/

If you have any questions please ask away.

I would like to say this though. This is a new business model. The old way of releasing a big self contained game, replete with data content, wasn't working for us for a number of reasons. One of those was that we, being very small, could not get out enough product in a time frame to stay in business. We just lack the resources of big business. User expectations are so high now days. You demand a well written manual, tutorial movies, a lot of scenarios etc plus a swag of new features in the game engine. All of that takes a lot of time, which delays output of new product. We were on a treadmill of more and more work, greater and greater lead times between releases and no one wanted to pay more for that. It was not sustainable.

So we have come with this new model which hopefully will allow us to improve the engine in smaller increments, more frequently and put out more data content. We won't have to spend two months just working on the manual for each release like we used to. Nor spend another two months on tutorial movies.

There will always be resistance to change. I accept that. Some people have very doctrinaire views about what is "proper" and what they are prepared to support. Fair enough. But for those of you with a mind to support the future of wargaming you need to consider how this industry will survive. Almost all of the developers are micro businesses. Few of them have more than five employees. The size of this market space is very small and can be measured in sales of a few thousand per title. You don't need to be a genius to work out that given the small sales quantity there is not much in the pie for developers. That they provide such a high standard of product on what is effectively the smell of an oily rag is to their credit. Most are dedicating thousands of hours for virtually no return.

Yes I hear you say its the poor developer line. But it is true nonetheless. I have been in this business now since 1985.Those were heady days and where a wargame could command a good number of sales and make a good profit. But that is not the case today given the huge competition in the mainstream game market. They have pushed up user expectations beyond what can be sustained by the sales volume in the wargame market. Something has to change.

We have tried charging more for our product but that met a fierce resistance from users. So if we can't survive on the existing sales take and we can't increase the sales price and the market size in terms of volumes per title sold is not increasing then the only alternative is to get out product more quickly. That is what we are endeavouring to do with this new business model.

If it is not successful we will close our doors. You won't be responsible for that. The responsibility for that rests on my shoulders. But what I would like to urge you is to be open minded about the new model. It is NOT a subscription service. It is NOT a pay for beta service. These are both false. We are giving away our engine for free. It's beta at the moment but its free and will be free going forward. What you pay for is data content and you are not locked into paying for any updates. That is completely and always your choice.

You will always be able to play the data content on the version of the core engine it was designed for. It never goes out of date in that regard. But if you want to take advantage of new features in a new version of the core engine then you will have the option to update your data at a discounted price. It's an option pure and simple.

Anyway I urge you to check out the Pricing Policy.

FYI we do plan to release new data content over the coming months. We have the Westwall and Knock on All Doors modules already developed and being tested. They will work with Command Ops 2 (CO2). We have a number of east front modules too. These will require new features in the engine and will be released after CO3 is out.

That's all from me for now. As I said, if you have any questions I'm more than willing to answer them. You can make these on the CO2 forum, which I monitor closely: http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/forums/command-ops-series.28/ or here on this forum. I will try and check back in here soon.

[bayonetbrant]

Thanks for chiming in, Dave!

[Jarhead0331]

So it would be possible to have CO2 installed with CO2 data modules and a separate Install of CO3 with CO3 modules? For instance, CO2 is released and I buy Foothills of the Gods. A few months later, CO3 is released with a series of eastern front modules for that version of the core engine. I can download CO3 for free, buy an eastern front module and still run foothills of the gods in the CO2 engine without having to pay To upgrade that module?

[jomni]

I think that's the intention .