Panther Games Command Ops 2 Limited Time Offer Bundle Pack Coming Soon

[Pete Dero]

This looks much better then the previous communications : The Core Engine is free, including all future minor builds and core updates

Considering CO1 was already really good I just couldn't imagine the need for 2 core updates at $ 50 per year.

So it would be possible to have CO2 installed with CO2 data modules and a separate Install of CO3 with CO3 modules? For instance, CO2 is released and I buy Foothills of the Gods. A few months later, CO3 is released with a series of eastern front modules for that version of the core engine. I can download CO3 for free, buy an eastern front module and still run foothills of the gods in the CO2 engine without having to pay To upgrade that module?

Posted on the LNL forum : http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/threads/co2-pricing-policy.1295/

They will be separate installs. So you would have say a CO2 and a CO3 installed on your machine. The CO2 would contain all the modules you purchased and updated for it. The CO3 would only contain the ones you updated for it. They would each have their own shortcuts.

[agathosdaimon]

i just bought teh CO2 game and all its modules , though would CO3 come out this year - areyou working on this already? that would seem kind of odd and offputting if that is the case and is it silly that i  bought CO2 now, or will people just wait for CO3?

[Arjuna]

So it would be possible to have CO2 installed with CO2 data modules and a separate Install of CO3 with CO3 modules? For instance, CO2 is released and I buy Foothills of the Gods. A few months later, CO3 is released with a series of eastern front modules for that version of the core engine. I can download CO3 for free, buy an eastern front module and still run foothills of the gods in the CO2 engine without having to pay To upgrade that module?

Correct

[Nefaro]

Not at all. If you have paid for the Commander Pack 1 then it is yours. We will be releasing new minor builds for the Core Engine on a on going basis as we develop and refine the engine. These will all be free. Your Commander pack will work with these. If for any reason we need to do a conversion of the data then it will be done free of charge.

Having said that, if we put out a new core update with new features, as opposed to a new minor build with fixes, then you will have the option to pay for an update to your data. It's not compulsory. You can choose to stick with the existing core engine. That's the model we proposed months ago and it's still the model we are working on today.

Well.. that just crossed this off my purchase list.

It reminds me of the old bug fix scheme Paradox used to have long ago, where you had to buy expansion packs to get essential bug fixes.  Except this is far more expensive.

I can just imagine some issue like the currently reported "sluggishness", overlapping text getting left in one version, or any number of possible bugs requiring you to throw more money at it. 

Shamefur Dispray!

:(


I'm not such a Command Ops addict to the point that I would regularly shell out this kind of cash for updates.  Not even close.  From the marketing scheme, it looks like PG are planning on running the company from income on this series in perpetuity.  I don't see how that will happen with only the most die-hard fans of the series willing to cough up money for updates. 

I still have the original HTTR on disc.  It's a good "command sim" style game that I've enjoyed in occasional small stretches.  The initial price of CO2 is fine, and similarly for major expansions into different theaters/regions and new scenarios.  But having to pay for updates to modules is just too much to ask.  Thus far, I've not even finished all the scenarios in HTTR after... a decade?  No more fence-sitting for me.

To their credit, at least they are clarifying the situation to their customers, at the beginning of the release, instead of changing it to a worse situation months later after people had already purchased the initial offerings. 

[Grim.Reaper]

Not at all. If you have paid for the Commander Pack 1 then it is yours. We will be releasing new minor builds for the Core Engine on a on going basis as we develop and refine the engine. These will all be free. Your Commander pack will work with these. If for any reason we need to do a conversion of the data then it will be done free of charge.

Having said that, if we put out a new core update with new features, as opposed to a new minor build with fixes, then you will have the option to pay for an update to your data. It's not compulsory. You can choose to stick with the existing core engine. That's the model we proposed months ago and it's still the model we are working on today.

Well.. that just crossed this off my purchase list.

It reminds me of the old bug fix scheme Paradox used to have long ago, where you had to buy expansion packs to get essential bug fixes.  Except this is far more expensive.

I can just imagine some issue like the currently reported "sluggishness", overlapping text getting left in one version, or any number of possible bugs requiring you to throw more money at it. 

Shamefur Dispray!

:(

Not sure I interpret the statement you bolded the same way....don't see it mentioning paying for bug fixes, I read it as saying that as new core updates are released with brand new functionality, that previous modules would need updated to take advantage of those new features.  If you don't want the new features in your existing modules, than you can continue playing them on your older version.  Now if a lot of bug fixes are deferred to actual core updates versus patches, then it certainly would be a little concerning.

[Nefaro]

Not at all. If you have paid for the Commander Pack 1 then it is yours. We will be releasing new minor builds for the Core Engine on a on going basis as we develop and refine the engine. These will all be free. Your Commander pack will work with these. If for any reason we need to do a conversion of the data then it will be done free of charge.

Having said that, if we put out a new core update with new features, as opposed to a new minor build with fixes, then you will have the option to pay for an update to your data. It's not compulsory. You can choose to stick with the existing core engine. That's the model we proposed months ago and it's still the model we are working on today.

Well.. that just crossed this off my purchase list.

It reminds me of the old bug fix scheme Paradox used to have long ago, where you had to buy expansion packs to get essential bug fixes.  Except this is far more expensive.

I can just imagine some issue like the currently reported "sluggishness", overlapping text getting left in one version, or any number of possible bugs requiring you to throw more money at it. 

Shamefur Dispray!

:(

Not sure I interpret the statement you bolded the same way....don't see it mentioning paying for bug fixes, I read it as saying that as new core updates are released with brand new functionality, that previous modules would need updated to take advantage of those new features.  If you don't want the new features in your existing modules, than you can continue playing them on your older version.  Now if a lot of bug fixes are deferred to actual core updates versus patches, then it certainly would be a little concerning.

I understood it as bug fixes being discontinued for the previously purchased ones at that point.

So if they plan on releasing one or two paid core updates a year, there won't be a very long bug patching stretch for each one before you need to buy the next (and get the bug fixes which will only be done for that version forward). 

I'm concerned about the possible bug situation the previous versions could be left in when this switchover happens.  At this point, there is no way to predict that.  I'm sure the developers don't want to leave bugs in previous version, but they're always there in any software as everyone well knows. 

If I purchased the whole pack right now, I have no idea what condition it will be left in when a new version update comes along in the next 6 to 12 months.  I believe Cyrano alluded to this earlier in this thread, too.  I really dislike starting up a game without the latest patch & it's bug fixes.  Having those rolled into paid upgrades once or twice a year is just a no-go with the amount of time I have, or ever will, put into the Command Ops series. 

It just sounds like the bug fix patches will be limited to a short span of time without regularly paying for new game versions, even if you don't feel the need to buy the new ones.  If I'm completely wrong, and patches for previous core versions will continue after such paid updates, then I'd like to know.  I thought the wording was clear.

[Tuna]

and you would have to pay for a patch for 'each' game correct?

[Grim.Reaper]

Not at all. If you have paid for the Commander Pack 1 then it is yours. We will be releasing new minor builds for the Core Engine on a on going basis as we develop and refine the engine. These will all be free. Your Commander pack will work with these. If for any reason we need to do a conversion of the data then it will be done free of charge.

Having said that, if we put out a new core update with new features, as opposed to a new minor build with fixes, then you will have the option to pay for an update to your data. It's not compulsory. You can choose to stick with the existing core engine. That's the model we proposed months ago and it's still the model we are working on today.

Well.. that just crossed this off my purchase list.

It reminds me of the old bug fix scheme Paradox used to have long ago, where you had to buy expansion packs to get essential bug fixes.  Except this is far more expensive.

I can just imagine some issue like the currently reported "sluggishness", overlapping text getting left in one version, or any number of possible bugs requiring you to throw more money at it. 

Shamefur Dispray!

:(

Not sure I interpret the statement you bolded the same way....don't see it mentioning paying for bug fixes, I read it as saying that as new core updates are released with brand new functionality, that previous modules would need updated to take advantage of those new features.  If you don't want the new features in your existing modules, than you can continue playing them on your older version.  Now if a lot of bug fixes are deferred to actual core updates versus patches, then it certainly would be a little concerning.

I understood it as bug fixes being discontinued for the previously purchased ones at that point.

So if they plan on releasing one or two paid core updates a year, there won't be a very long bug patching stretch for each one before you need to buy the next (and get the bug fixes which will only be done for that version forward). 

I'm concerned about the possible bug situation the previous versions could be left in when this switchover happens.  At this point, there is no way to predict that.  I'm sure the developers don't want to leave bugs in previous version, but they're always there in any software as everyone well knows. 

If I purchased the whole pack right now, I have no idea what condition it will be left in when a new version update comes along in the next 6 to 12 months.  I believe Cyrano alluded to this earlier in this thread, too.  I really dislike starting up a game without the latest patch & it's bug fixes.  Having those rolled into paid upgrades once or twice a year is just a no-go with the amount of time I have, or ever will, put into the Command Ops series. 

It just sounds like the bug fix patches will be limited to a short span of time without regularly paying for new game versions, even if you don't feel the need to buy the new ones.  If I'm completely wrong, and patches for previous core versions will continue after such paid updates, then I'd like to know.  I thought the wording was clear.

Might be just terminology.....when I was speaking bug fixes, thinking most of those would be fixed in the core product, versus the modules.  I don't believe they will go back and fix bugs in prior versions of the game, which I think is consistent how most companies deal with older versions of their game.  Is there any game out there where there are patches made to old versions free of charge?

[Grim.Reaper]

and you would have to pay for a patch for 'each' game correct?

Core game will always be free...if you want to update your game modules/content, there would be a cost associated with it, whether separate costs or maybe they will have bundles like they did with the initial commander pack, not sure.  Not really a patch for the content, you only need to upgrade if you want the new functionality introduced with the latest core release.

[Nefaro]

Not at all. If you have paid for the Commander Pack 1 then it is yours. We will be releasing new minor builds for the Core Engine on a on going basis as we develop and refine the engine. These will all be free. Your Commander pack will work with these. If for any reason we need to do a conversion of the data then it will be done free of charge.

Having said that, if we put out a new core update with new features, as opposed to a new minor build with fixes, then you will have the option to pay for an update to your data. It's not compulsory. You can choose to stick with the existing core engine. That's the model we proposed months ago and it's still the model we are working on today.

Well.. that just crossed this off my purchase list.

It reminds me of the old bug fix scheme Paradox used to have long ago, where you had to buy expansion packs to get essential bug fixes.  Except this is far more expensive.

I can just imagine some issue like the currently reported "sluggishness", overlapping text getting left in one version, or any number of possible bugs requiring you to throw more money at it. 

Shamefur Dispray!

:(

Not sure I interpret the statement you bolded the same way....don't see it mentioning paying for bug fixes, I read it as saying that as new core updates are released with brand new functionality, that previous modules would need updated to take advantage of those new features.  If you don't want the new features in your existing modules, than you can continue playing them on your older version.  Now if a lot of bug fixes are deferred to actual core updates versus patches, then it certainly would be a little concerning.

I understood it as bug fixes being discontinued for the previously purchased ones at that point.

So if they plan on releasing one or two paid core updates a year, there won't be a very long bug patching stretch for each one before you need to buy the next (and get the bug fixes which will only be done for that version forward). 

I'm concerned about the possible bug situation the previous versions could be left in when this switchover happens.  At this point, there is no way to predict that.  I'm sure the developers don't want to leave bugs in previous version, but they're always there in any software as everyone well knows. 

If I purchased the whole pack right now, I have no idea what condition it will be left in when a new version update comes along in the next 6 to 12 months.  I believe Cyrano alluded to this earlier in this thread, too.  I really dislike starting up a game without the latest patch & it's bug fixes.  Having those rolled into paid upgrades once or twice a year is just a no-go with the amount of time I have, or ever will, put into the Command Ops series. 

It just sounds like the bug fix patches will be limited to a short span of time without regularly paying for new game versions, even if you don't feel the need to buy the new ones.  If I'm completely wrong, and patches for previous core versions will continue after such paid updates, then I'd like to know.  I thought the wording was clear.

Might be just terminology.....when I was speaking bug fixes, thinking most of those would be fixed in the core product, versus the modules.  I don't believe they will go back and fix bugs in prior versions of the game, which I think is consistent how most companies deal with older versions of their game.  Is there any game out there where there are patches made to old versions free of charge?

Of course not.  But moving on to a new version every 6 months, as proposed, wouldn't leave much time in between for bug fixes on each one.  Especially if they're using much of that time to create the new version and the bug fixes to the previous version that will be only included with the new one.

[RyanE]

This actually seems very close to BFC's approach now with CM2.  Pay for major function upgrade.  Bug fixes are free, but at some point, they stop supporting the old version.

The only difference is BFC charges for the engine upgrade..but the scenarios are automatically converted.  Also keep in mind that BFC sells what PC would consider upgrades as completely separate games.  BFC has 5 core engines.  Looks like the CO2 engine will handle all of WW2.  You need 3 cores in BFC-land.

[Grim.Reaper]

Not at all. If you have paid for the Commander Pack 1 then it is yours. We will be releasing new minor builds for the Core Engine on a on going basis as we develop and refine the engine. These will all be free. Your Commander pack will work with these. If for any reason we need to do a conversion of the data then it will be done free of charge.

Having said that, if we put out a new core update with new features, as opposed to a new minor build with fixes, then you will have the option to pay for an update to your data. It's not compulsory. You can choose to stick with the existing core engine. That's the model we proposed months ago and it's still the model we are working on today.

Well.. that just crossed this off my purchase list.

It reminds me of the old bug fix scheme Paradox used to have long ago, where you had to buy expansion packs to get essential bug fixes.  Except this is far more expensive.

I can just imagine some issue like the currently reported "sluggishness", overlapping text getting left in one version, or any number of possible bugs requiring you to throw more money at it. 

Shamefur Dispray!

:(

Not sure I interpret the statement you bolded the same way....don't see it mentioning paying for bug fixes, I read it as saying that as new core updates are released with brand new functionality, that previous modules would need updated to take advantage of those new features.  If you don't want the new features in your existing modules, than you can continue playing them on your older version.  Now if a lot of bug fixes are deferred to actual core updates versus patches, then it certainly would be a little concerning.

I understood it as bug fixes being discontinued for the previously purchased ones at that point.

So if they plan on releasing one or two paid core updates a year, there won't be a very long bug patching stretch for each one before you need to buy the next (and get the bug fixes which will only be done for that version forward). 

I'm concerned about the possible bug situation the previous versions could be left in when this switchover happens.  At this point, there is no way to predict that.  I'm sure the developers don't want to leave bugs in previous version, but they're always there in any software as everyone well knows. 

If I purchased the whole pack right now, I have no idea what condition it will be left in when a new version update comes along in the next 6 to 12 months.  I believe Cyrano alluded to this earlier in this thread, too.  I really dislike starting up a game without the latest patch & it's bug fixes.  Having those rolled into paid upgrades once or twice a year is just a no-go with the amount of time I have, or ever will, put into the Command Ops series. 

It just sounds like the bug fix patches will be limited to a short span of time without regularly paying for new game versions, even if you don't feel the need to buy the new ones.  If I'm completely wrong, and patches for previous core versions will continue after such paid updates, then I'd like to know.  I thought the wording was clear.

Might be just terminology.....when I was speaking bug fixes, thinking most of those would be fixed in the core product, versus the modules.  I don't believe they will go back and fix bugs in prior versions of the game, which I think is consistent how most companies deal with older versions of their game.  Is there any game out there where there are patches made to old versions free of charge?

Of course not.  But moving on to a new version every 6 months, as proposed, wouldn't leave much time in between for bug fixes on each one.  Especially if they're using much of that time to create the new version and the bug fixes to the previous version that will be only included with the new one.

I guess I am just going on past history where there hasn't been a core update to the game very often...certainly if it turns out to be very frequent, then that could become a little overwhelming and would raise some concerns.  If it turns out to be once a year like most other games that do annual new versions, then not a big deal to me.  But even if more frequent, I can certainly make the choice of not buying that specific version and jump in on a later one, as long as bug fixes are not being held back.

[MikeGER]

From my understanding -after reading through thread(s) here and over at LnL - its all about the attribute vector describing a unit (a growing parameter list)   

Let's say a unit had 20(?) different attributes in the old game
Now in CO2  5 mores attributes (like number of radios, some detail specific to artillery, etc...) are now also used by the engine to calculate the simulation in a more refined way

So for the old modules, someone over at Panther Games had to do some military history research and some deep thoughts to find and add those 5 new attribute values individually set for each unit(type) in all the existing OOBs
That is the value or the work done we have to pay for when getting an updated module

In the next installment it will be 5 more attributes to a unit (those needed to simulate mounted-ops for example, or some other specific for getting the behavior of units at the Ostfront modelled right)

In a later installment it maybe will be added 5 more attributes to a unit that may help describe 'amphibious or beach landing OPs', cause Panther Games will use them for a fictional 'Operation Overlord' set

the sad thing is: in the past the stand alone game  would just be called "D-Day", had 32+ scenarios standalone and cost 49$
now i will be a separate Omaha-, Utah-, Gold-, Juno-, Sword-, module  ??? ...with only 6 scenarios each of course ;)
(i am speaking/guessing of 2017 here... )
       

[-budd-]

The bug point is a good point, I' d like to get some clarification on that. Judging by past history I'm not to worried about the game breaking bug variety being taken care of, would like to hear about what their philosophy on bugs going forward. That being said I will be buying the commander pack this weekend, I like the UI changes and have every confidence panther won't leave CO2 until its up to snuff, kinda has to be if they expect people to buy the incoming CO2 modules.

[dinsdale]

From searching on the Matrix site;

Highway to the Reich released December 2003, patched until May 2004
Conquest of the Aegean released June 2006, patched until April 2008
Command Ops Battles From The Bulge released May 2010, Highway to the Reich released January 2012, Battles For Greece released June 2013, engine patched until July 2014

Of course Panther may radically change their previous behavior and finally be making their move to tap the incredibly lucrative wargame market...