CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread

[jomni]

Let me know if you want to play PBEM. Con, ucg, or anyone else.

[jomni]

Is there a bug with NVG?  My Russians aren't wearing them in a PBEM match and I'm running blind. The US are chewing us up. Weather is Dense Fog / Night.

[jomni]

Ok. I've got some response in the forums. Those Russian troops only carry NV scopes on their firearms. Only scouts have NVG.

NV scopes are quite useless in the fog.  the US troops will start shooting at me from a greater distance. Can't even plot cover fire because the view is very much restricted in the fog. Thermals perform better in fog.

Together with the free Javelin found in vehicles these little advantages aren't really represented in the purchase points making PBEM unbalanced depending on the situation.

[Yskonyn]

I've seen more discussion on BFC forums about the aparent advantage the US forces have over the others with their Javelins.
If I recall there is a Russian weapon system modelled in the game with similar capabilities, but its up to the mission designer to make it available. I might be wrong.

Anyway in your scenario it seems to be rather unbalanced indeed.
Have you had contact with the mission designer? What are his points of view? Was this a H2H scenario to begin with?

[jomni]

I've seen more discussion on BFC forums about the aparent advantage the US forces have over the others with their Javelins.
If I recall there is a Russian weapon system modelled in the game with similar capabilities, but its up to the mission designer to make it available. I might be wrong.

Anyway in your scenario it seems to be rather unbalanced indeed.
Have you had contact with the mission designer? What are his points of view? Was this a H2H scenario to begin with?

I'm not worried about canned missions.  This is about quick battle maps with troops bought by each player with Purchase Points. The US conveniently has a Javelin launcher in every APC which can turn any infantry into an Anti Tank team. The Russians don't have any Javelin like device stashed in their vehicles. So the purchase points should be adjusted for this which I think they do not.  But of course I have not seen the AI pick up those Javelins, only human opponents.

In my game, the US conveniently has thermals by default and my russian infantry does not. But this advantage appears only in night and fog environment. So you can't really make a conditional purchase point system. It seems to not matter in day time and clear night so it is also unfair to impose a higher cost for US troops than what is being charged now by default. Unless the point system is by individual equipment which is somewhat implemented to some degree.

I guess the best is to just be aware of this disadvantage and purchase the proper troops appropriate for the situation. That mean only Russian Recon units are able to go againt the US during a foggy night.

[mikeck]

I've seen more discussion on BFC forums about the aparent advantage the US forces have over the others with their Javelins.
If I recall there is a Russian weapon system modelled in the game with similar capabilities, but its up to the mission designer to make it available. I might be wrong.

Anyway in your scenario it seems to be rather unbalanced indeed.
Have you had contact with the mission designer? What are his points of view? Was this a H2H scenario to begin with?

'Murica!
i'm not an expert but fairly well read and I am not aware that the Russians are working on a similar system as the javelin but I could very well be wrong. Even if they were, it would be in the initial stages and certainly nothing has been even close to deployed. Fact is and many have said the same thing to the people on the battlefront forms, war is a bitch and unfair....and sometimes the other guy has weapon systems that you have to figure out a way to counter...i'm sure the Iraqis were complaining that their T-72 rounds couldn't penetrate the M1's armor;  that's life in the big city. as in actual combat conditions, once the javelin is fired it is extremely reliable and accurate the key is to target the infantry... once the thing is fired that's your ass. By all indications in combat the weapon functions phenomenally

Not directing this at you Yskonyn...it's just the usual "my dad can beat up your dad" on the battlefront forms concerning the t-90 versus the M1 and so on. Many of those on the "Russian side" are crying and whining about the javelin but hey it's a great system...better figure something out before they meet in real life or the same things going to happen

Another problem is that current Russian APS protection systems are not designed to intercept top down attacks. Right now the Ukrainians, Estonians,Latvians, Lithuanians and Poles are all screaming bloody murder for as many javelins as they can get their hands on the Ukrainians are convinced it's the only way they could keep the Russian tanks out of Ukraine; and they're probably right

But yes, in my experience a few well-placed javelin crewman can completely decimate Russian armored formation in the game

On a similar note, in the game the Russian APS system is quite a effective against TOW missiles

[Cyrano]

I strongly supported the return to cherry-picking in CMx2 post SF and am glad it's back.

I despise point systems.  As suggested by mikeck, point systems imply war can be made "fair" or "equal".  It almost never is.  Generals are paid to make this so.  It's what makes meeting engagement scenarios so damn silly most of the time, but I digress.  I will guaran-damn-tee that the Wehrmacht soldiers slogging their way up to the state farms at Kursk thought those Katyushas "unfair" in their own way...

Use points for sizing scenarios if you must, but, ultimately, play from history, play from plausibility, and then play with friends.  You'll live longer and enjoy the experience of the game more.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[Jarhead0331]

I strongly supported the return to cherry-picking in CMx2 post SF and am glad it's back.

I despise point systems.  As suggested by mikeck, point systems imply war can be made "fair" or "equal".  It almost never is.  Generals are paid to make this so.  It's what makes meeting engagement scenarios so damn silly most of the time, but I digress.  I will guaran-damn-tee that the Wehrmacht soldiers slogging their way up to the state farms at Kursk thought those Katyushas "unfair" in their own way...

Use points for sizing scenarios if you must, but, ultimately, play from history, play from plausibility, and then play with friends.  You'll live longer and enjoy the experience of the game more.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

+1. it is not a matter of "convenience" as suggested by Jomni. it is a matter of the reality that US troops are generally better equipped than their eastern bloc counterparts in some very important ways. That is war.

[mikeck]

I think increasing the "point cost" of a weapon works when in reality, that weapon was rare. For example, in CMBO, I should have to spend a lot of points if I want a king Tiger because they were rare. On the other hand, I SHOULDNT have to spend more points for a T-34 than a german Panzer mark3 in a 1941 scenarios simply because the T-34 is better

US army is stocked with Javelins

[sandman2575]

Not to sidetrack but genuinely curious -- is it typical for Javelins to be used as an anti-personnel weapon?  I was surprised (and slightly pissed off) when one of my Javelin-equipped squads launched a missile against a Russian soldier -- and a single soldier at that.  Tagged the bastard, but man, talk about overkill. 

I thought Javelin was exclusively an anti-armor / anti-vehicle weapons system...

[mikeck]

Not to sidetrack but genuinely curious -- is it typical for Javelins to be used as an anti-personnel weapon?  I was surprised (and slightly pissed off) when one of my Javelin-equipped squads launched a missile against a Russian soldier -- and a single soldier at that.  Tagged the bastard, but man, talk about overkill. 

I thought Javelin was exclusively an anti-armor / anti-vehicle weapons system...

The javelin  has a "direct attack mode" in which the missile flies a traditionally straight pattern like a TOW missile. This allows it to be fired at buildings from which the troops are receiving fire or into the mouth of the cave etc. So to answer your question, the javelin can be used to hit a lot of things besides vehicles however that's a lot of money to spend putting a missile into dirt so you can kill one soldier.
To solve that issue I take my team and split off and antitank squad and then give them an area to target armor only.

On a similar note, the new TOW-2a missile with the directed charge enabling top attack on the top of the tank is nasty

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E1VWPOpYbQI

[sandman2575]

Interesting -- although in this case, the javelin missile followed its usual top-armor-penetrating parabolic trajectory...to take out single grunt.  Seemed like a bug... or at least, an incredibly boneheaded tactical decision.

Anyway, good solution you propose.

Also, re: the TOW2, I was amazed the other day when one of my Bradleys took out a T-90 using this method... I thought he was toast...

[JudgeDredd]

When faced with the enemy, any weapon that makes a casualty will do  :P

[RyanE]

Interesting -- although in this case, the javelin missile followed its usual top-armor-penetrating parabolic trajectory...to take out single grunt.  Seemed like a bug... or at least, an incredibly boneheaded tactical decision.

Anyway, good solution you propose.

Also, re: the TOW2, I was amazed the other day when one of my Bradleys took out a T-90 using this method... I thought he was toast...

I believe the direct attack flight path of a Javelin still causes it to elevate a little above the target.  Just not as high as in the top-attack mode.

[Yskonyn]

No offense taken at all.  O0

But I can see where jomni comes from. Especially in the Quick Battle system. Ideally you want to play an opponent and have similar chances to win a battle.
Once people know that every APC has the 'cane of doom' equipped, it'll quickly make for unbalanced matches if they resort to Javelin spam.

I am not sure how widely available Javelins are in US platoons, but in CM:BS they aren't rare at all and so not really expensive to purchase. While this may be reality, I do agree with jomni that this can be a game killer between two human players.

CM players value realism. I do too, but I also value a fair fight in terms of it being a game and all. There is no skill needed for Javelin spam.