Jordanian Pilot Burned Alive

[DoctorQuest]

The religion is medieval and until they get with a program of modernity, I do not think they have much to offer the world.

I don't think there is a more succinct description of the basic issue.

[bayonetbrant]

Just in case the NSA is reading, I never suggested that strategy.  I believe you and I are on the same page.

FTFY

[LongBlade]

Some people just need killin'.

Yeah, the trick is killing them without killing too many of the people you are trying to save from them.

Now we're getting close to defining an objective. Few of us here want to see unrestricted collateral damage. That said, saving people from an oppressive regime may (or may not) be our objective. Once we define what we want to accomplish then we can decide how to go about doing it. Destroying ISIL may not be the same as saving the locals from all oppression.

I think there are lessons to be learned from our 15 years of experience in the sandboxes. In all cases we seemed to be able to accomplish short term destruction of formal resistance, but then seemed to lose our way in figuring out whether/what/how to reassemble any pieces to our own liking.

[Atilla60]

I'm not sure how many people in that region are innocent. Of course, they are not all beheading non-believers, but my understanding is that a full 30% of the global Muslim population holds extremist views. That is more than 300,000,000 people who believe in the wholesale slaughter and destruction of western civilization.  Moreover, I reckon there is a large minority, or even perhaps a small (or maybe not so small) majority who hold conservative Islamic beliefs, which means that they may not support the wanton murder of non-believers, but they still hold backward beliefs that lead to underage women being stoned to death for rejecting the advances of a much older male, or even worse, for getting raped by one, or that lead to homosexuals being thrown off of buildings in a public square.

The religion is medieval and until they get with a program of modernity, I do not think they have much to offer the world. 

Good post. +1 to pretty much all of it.

+2
Well said Jarhead

[OJsDad]

Now we're getting close to defining an objective. Few of us here want to see unrestricted collateral damage. That said, saving people from an oppressive regime may (or may not) be our objective. Once we define what we want to accomplish then we can decide how to go about doing it. Destroying ISIL may not be the same as saving the locals from all oppression.

I think there are lessons to be learned from our 15 years of experience in the sandboxes. In all cases we seemed to be able to accomplish short term destruction of formal resistance, but then seemed to lose our way in figuring out whether/what/how to reassemble any pieces to our own liking.

+1

[OJsDad]

Perhaps its now time for a grand bargain. 

1.  The US and Europe cannot be the lead.  This needs to come from the Middle East countries.  US and Europe can provide some troops, air and support.

2.  Is it perhaps time to redraw some boarders.  Dissolve Syria and Iraq.

3.  Kurdistan from parts of Iraq and Syria, with a port to the Med.

4.  Saudi Arabia gest most of Iraq and Syria that's left over.  Perhaps Kuwait gets a piece of Iraq.

5.  Jordan get a bit of Syria to put a buffer between Israel and SA.

I know, it will never happen, but....

[GDS_Starfury]

how is giving Jordan bits of Syria creating a buffer between Israel and SA?

[OJsDad]

My opinion, while a sizable portion of both countries want to see Israel go away, I don't think either government has any desire to go down that road again.  By not having a shared boarder with Israel, I think it may give the Saudi's domestic room.

[Staggerwing]

Saudi Arabia doesn't share a border with Israel. The closest they come is opposite shores of the Gulf of Aquaba, and even then there is still a bit of Jordan in between.

[Airborne Rifles]

Having said all that, I forced myself to watch the video of the pilot's burning (sorry to derail the thread from the original topic). It's absolutely gruesome, and I won't forget it the next time I'm over there fighting these vermin. Hopefully this conflict keeps sucking them in to where we can get at them without putting our own citizens at risk.

[Centurion40]

I haven't watched the video.  I haven't watched any of them since the videotaped beheadings began in early part of this century.

They truly are medieval barbarians.  More and more, I am inclined to want my government, and its allies, to leave that part of the world alone.  Withdraw.  Promote an alternative to fossil fuels.  Leave them alone to torture and murder each other until they socially evolve, in the same manner that Europe (more or less) did.

But I don't believe that Big Oil will allow that to happen.  Especially now that the new Saudi King is jacking up the price of oil.

[Jarhead0331]

I haven't watched the video.  I haven't watched any of them since the videotaped beheadings began in early part of this century.

They truly are medieval barbarians.  More and more, I am inclined to want my government, and its allies, to leave that part of the world alone.  Withdraw.  Promote an alternative to fossil fuels.  Leave them alone to torture and murder each other until they socially evolve, in the same manner that Europe (more or less) did.

But I don't believe that Big Oil will allow that to happen.  Especially now that the new Saudi King is jacking up the price of oil.

The problem with that theory is they will not leave us alone. They will continue to attack, kill and destroy until Western Civilization has been burned to the ground. They will not rest knowing "non-believers" exist in the world. To attempt to ignore them is a drastic error with catastrophic consequences. just look at the streets of London and Paris, and the mobs of unassimilated Muslim extremists.

Like Airborne Rifles, I forced myself to watch the video and I too will never forget it. I have avoided watching the beheading videos because it is something I have seen before and I already know how truly horrible it is...I don't need to see it again.  However, if watching this latest video of that poor Jordanian pilot once does not result in the solidification of global will to destroy these animals, our leaders should continue to watch the video over and over and over again, until they are so disgusted and angered that there is no other option but to act decisively.   

[JasonPratt]

So, carpet-bombing/nuking cities of Muslims is the solution? What about the Christian/Yazidi/Druze/Kurdish/Zoroastrian populations in those areas?

Look, I have a lot of respect for all of you here. I just don't believe that you really want to incinerate a bunch of families, most of whom don't really care about Israel or the US one way or another. I get it, it's fun to talk about making glass parking lots, but I don't think you would really want it to happen.

Personally, I believe assimilation is the solution...not annihilation. However, until the majority of Muslims take an open stand against their extremist leaders and the prevalence of barbarism in their societies, I will not shed tears if they are lost due to efforts by the Western world to defend itself.

Nor will I. But that's a far cry from saying we should use weapons and tactics that will ensure their annihilation along with the people we really need to kill.

Just for the other record: that's why I agreed with hitting the military camps, or even just one camp.

But don't hit it soft. Culturally they work on emotion and poetry (like all people do, but it's a stronger part of their thoughts and communication than for many of us in the West), so whatever few places we hit DO IT AT EPIC MYTHIC LEVELS.

It might seem like a waste to kill a couple thousand soldiers and probably a few civilians who don't really want to be there (and more who do and are willingly supporting the soldiers) with two million pounds of high explosive and incineration devices, but it sends a message people will understand in their bones.

I'm a very religious man, and I don't want to hurt the people actually being oppressed; and I'd prefer for whoever has authority in the region to live in peace with us and with one another. But if it has to be done, make it a message religious people will intuitively understand. We have the resources to do that, and the tech to make sure the actual damage spread is minimized.

[JasonPratt]

^^ Come to think of it, we might get across the same message by picking an uninhabited mountain area and firestorming it.

[BanzaiCat]

We have the resources to do that, and the tech to make sure the actual damage spread is minimized.

Yet our leadership does not have the backbone to use it.