Kickstarter Huh?

[airboy]

Having read about Kickstarter I visited the site.

I don't understand why people donate money for game startups (I'll ignore the rest).  I really don't.

The donors really get nothing.  There may be "prizes" or "rewards" listed - but it would be darn hard to enforce a contract.  I'm guessing that only bad online word-of-mouth would be the only real risk if the developers stiff an individual donor.

I can see why a developer would do it. You can take advance orders - and refuse to follow them if the project dies.  Or, if the project actually works you have a built-in initial level of presold games.  The developer has less cash at risk from starting the project.  From a developer standpoint, the only real risk is potential bad word of mouth (unless there are less risky/expensive ways to raise capital).

A developer can also generate relatively free advance publicity for a project.

So, as a business professor I understand the overall cash flow model.  I understand how the people who own kickstarter make money.  I understand why developers might find it financially attractive or a good source of advance publicity.

But why someone would be a "donor" is frankly utterly beyond me.  It is not really an investment.  You have no ownership.  You have probably no enforcable contract rights.  And it all ultimately may be vaporware (or the noncomputer game equilivant).  It seems like the equally insane opportunities to buy "stock" or "bonds" in pro sports teams that convey no ownership, property rights, or other benefits other than a sense of "belonging" and perhaps a pretty piece of paper to put on the wall.

[Gusington]

I've donated to the Wasteland 2 project. I get the game Wasteland 2 when development is done next year.

The project is one of the top earners on Kickstarter and has Obsidian Entertainment, Brian Fargo and a number of other high profile computer gaming legends signed on. They are very transparent in their progress and the thought that they would just stiff us donors is utterly unthinkable. Sure, it could happen but the chances of it happening with this particular project are very low. It's the only Kickstarter project I've given money to...my amount of trust is higher for Wasteland 2 than any other project I've viewed on Kickstarter.

[Arctic Blast]

I suspect the bigger problem is going to be (and already is, in a few cases) totally inexperienced developers who have never had to figure costs or logistics before. There are Kickstarted board games totally printed and ready in China, but the people behind it are only now realizing they have no idea how to get them to the rest of the world. Or you have board and computer game devs promising dozens of freebies, only to later realize that those freebies cost A LOT of money, and make the item more expensive to ship.

I can understand people backing something like a new Wasteland or the other big name projects, because those are being run by experienced people. I will never cease to be amazed at the fact that people will give hundreds of dollars to projects run by a self professed 'idea mean' with no industry background and a lot of nebulous promises that he clearly doesn't know how to make in to reality.

[Gusington]

I must be missing a lot over at Kickstarter...what the heck is being touted over there??

[Arctic Blast]

I must be missing a lot over at Kickstarter...what the heck is being touted over there??

Take a look through some of the ones that failed, or are about to. Seriously, some of the most ridiculous pitches of all time, and yet they STILL got a few idiots to promise them money.

[Gusington]

Ok so those are the ones that Airboy alludes to in the OP. It's a far cry from those to Wasteland 2 though.

[airboy]

If you read the website, they stand behind nothing.  It is totally up to the developers.  It is all based on a promise.  There is no accountability.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see another Wasteland or a new Gabriel Knight type game (both of which are projects).

But if you read the "promises" on the website - you "donate" your money and if the developer does not live up to the agreement you are totally without recourse.

[Bison]

I agree with Airboy on this one completely.

[airboy]

Couple of direct quotes from the "accountablity section"

- Kickstarter does not investigate a creator's ability to complete their project.
- How do I know a project creator is who they claim they are? = At the end of the day, use your internet street smarts.
- Project creators are solely responsible for fulfilling the promises of their projects
- What if I don't get my promised reward? - If the creator hasn't posted an update, send a direct message to request more information about their progress, or post a public comment on their project asking for a status update.


And they very, very clearly state that if you "back a project" you have no ownership.  The project developers keep all of the ownership.

[son_of_montfort]

Airboy, what you posted is not strictly true.

Donors do get several things. First, they get the assurance that the project that they supported will actually see the light of day. Kickstarter has allowed three great projects - Tim Schafer's new adventure game, the Wasteland sequel, and a Shadowrun PC game, to come to fruition without any large production house's oversight.

Two of those three projects were blocked at the publisher level. Through normal channels, the development house would go to the publisher, give a pitch, and the publisher would say yea or nay, then - if yea - would front them development money. But in this age of video gaming, publishing companies only invest in what they feel will be extremely profitable - FPS games, console games, or tried and true brand names. We all bemoan the fact that TBS and classic RPG are either dying out or only being produced by self-funded indie companies at low budget.

Kickstarter changes that. Developers can pitch demanded ideas that do not fit the "profit model" of the big-house publishers to the fans and solicit their aid. One fan can't give enough to make a difference, but a multitude of fans can fun a development with enough money to make an almost AAA-level of quality. This isn't strictly a pre-order, it is an investment deal - you invest in the idea you want to come into fruition and you get in on the ground floor when it releases.

This isn't just useful for the PC gaming industry, it is used in the board game industry with a lot of success. The developer-publisher relationship in the board game industry is fairly strange and complex, but there are a few companies that allow for developers to self-publish and self-print high quality board games. People who have great board game prototypes may lack access to capital, and may not know how popular their idea will be. These developers can't afford buying a huge print run and then not selling all their inventory - so Kickstarter allows them to hire artists, pay the printer, and find out exactly how many copies to order to still make a profit. Fans get exclusive rewards (if you don't believe fans get anything, look at the rewards for the upcoming Deluxe Edition of Steve Jackson's Ogre), and often early copies.

I have participated in several Kickstarters and I have yet to see one where the investor did not get the promised reward. To me, this is a brilliant step forward for self-publishing and independent game development. You better believe that the big names like EA and Atari got a sudden interest when they saw that Tim Schafer's adventure game got over $1 million in support within the course of a day. This will change the face of game development and hopefully break the entrenchment of console and FPS as the "profit gods" in the minds of the big companies.

And it lets fans have a choice for what games get developed. Not only that, but fans get to see projects that were abandoned or forgotten, but still loved, get revived under the terms of the fans and the developer - without some profit-hungry publisher dictating how it is done.

EDIT:

And you DO have ownership, if you pay enough. What I mean is, you will own a copy of the game (for instance), as if you purchased it from the store.

Sure, you should be discriminating about which projects you support (i.e. support those that you think are legitimate) but I have yet to see one fall through.

[son_of_montfort]

I suspect the bigger problem is going to be (and already is, in a few cases) totally inexperienced developers who have never had to figure costs or logistics before. There are Kickstarted board games totally printed and ready in China, but the people behind it are only now realizing they have no idea how to get them to the rest of the world. Or you have board and computer game devs promising dozens of freebies, only to later realize that those freebies cost A LOT of money, and make the item more expensive to ship.

Arctic Blast, do you have examples of this? I haven't seen this happening. I have seen board game developers have unforeseen problems with printing delays in China, but largely these people are getting the product to their supporters. Can you back this up or did you mean this as supposition? I also don't see a lot of problem with the freebies (which aren't actually free, given you pay higher levels to get more stuff). I follow the major projects and all-in-all people have been pleased over at Board Game Geek (and they are a tough bunch to please).

[airboy]

Son of Monfort:
Understand what you are saying. 

Although you stated that: "First, they get the assurance that the project that they supported will actually see the light of day." This is simply not true.  The website is very clear on this.

Seems like people pay up front for a game that may (or may not) ever be made.  It is like putting your money on potential vaporware.

The only thing that you "get on the ground floor" of as a donor is potentially being in a beta test or getting a first printing of the game.  But I can pre-order any game that "goes gold" on Amazon, Steam, etc.... and never pay a dime if the game ultimately does not ship.

Your other arguments make great sense - if I'm a developer.  I just don't see where the donors win on this.

You are free to spend your money however you wish and if it makes you happy please continue.

[DicedT]

Glad it's not just me who's cautious about Kickstarter. I would be much more comfortable putting up a little bit of money for a board game, which at least have low development costs. But Kickstarting a computer game? You have to hope that the developer won't just finish the game, but will also support it.

By the way, take a look at the Matrix/Slitherine site and see how many computer games have vanished into vaporware, or are still under development years after their alleged release date. And that's with a modest degree of support from an established publisher.

Kickstarter is fan-based venture capital for gaming. But it's worth remembering that there have been lot of great game concepts, backed by hefty budgets, that still produced lousy games. Caveat emptor.

Michael

[son_of_montfort]

The only thing that you "get on the ground floor" of as a donor is potentially being in a beta test or getting a first printing of the game.  But I can pre-order any game that "goes gold" on Amazon, Steam, etc.... and never pay a dime if the game ultimately does not ship.

Your other arguments make great sense - if I'm a developer.  I just don't see where the donors win on this.

You are missing one thing - if the game never gets made because it can't be funded any other way, you will never be able to pre-order said game anywhere else. And Amazon and Steam require a product before listing it as a pre-order (so you can't use this to fund the game development in the same way as Kickstarter). So, if you pre-order Shadowrun or Wasteland 2, I expect some thanks... it would not have been developed at all any other way.

In Board Games the Kickstarter folks often get a first and limited print run months before the general public. So this is very much "ground floor."

I would like for you to name for me one of the projects that didn't deliver that must be giving you pause. I can name about 20 or so that delivered and delivered well.

It isn't for everyone. I think it is a little sad that so much mistrust exists today that we question giving a small amount of money to help foster entrepreneurial spirit among independent and small development groups. The idea is really quite neat, IMHO, and represents the spirit we so seek to recapture of the halcyon days of yore.

[Gusington]

Absent of any assurance of the project being completed, I suppose it's a degree of faith. But I think you're being unnecessarily cynical on not knowing if the developers are who they say they are on the site.

Donors win with the bigger projects on getting a completed game that would not have been completed otherwise, i.e., blocked by traditional publishers.