Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa

[-budd-]

What I am about to ask is not meant as anything questioning this specific game, but quite the opposite since I am trying to understand the attraction.  For me eastern front strategic/operational games have never really interested me since when I look at pictures it seems all games that represent this theatre end up with a million counters lined up from top to bottom with what appears to be little room for maneuvers and different outcomes.  I am sure this does represent real life historical, but I have often struggled to see how it would be fun to manage all those units in tight spaces.  Also, I always got the impression that in most of these games it was almost a forgone conclusion Russia would ultimately prevail with little chance of different outcomes.

Am I just thinking about this the wrong way or missing where the attraction is?  Again, this game looks nice and not really singling it out, but just thought I would ask because it is the latest with this content.

The sweeping armor movements is why I like the East Front. Nothing like cracking the weak spot in the line with infantry and rushing your armor through to unhinge the defensive line. I have WITE and really enjoy the road to or smaller scenarios. Don't think i'll ever be up too playing the grand campaign, too many counters for me. The counters is this game are very manageable for me and somehow at this unit scale the space just seems more vast, like it should. Something WITE never made me feel with the boat load of counters. I think you have to come at this game from the RPG element to get the most out of it. How it all ties together with the reports and relationships is fantastic. The things you have to consider i find bring a breath of fresh air to genre. I think for the most part they pulled off what they were trying to do, hats off to them. I just unboxed my manual, it's fan Fu**ing tastic ;D , I haven't went hard copy in over a decade, nicest manual i've ever seen.

[JasonPratt]

As noted, the giant lines which seem to leave no room for maneuver, are only a visual factor of a particular level of the war. At the tactical level (like Graviteam Tactics or Panzer Command Ostfront or Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin) there's plenty of room for maneuver; at the operational level (like SSG's games) there's as much or more room to maneuver than in any other theater. At the super-large-scale level (Unity of Command, Hearts of Iron series, War in the East, or DC3), sure there will be giant lines of divisions and corps -- but if the game is well designed, then supply and logistics and weather in the Russian heartland combines with the ability of both armies (German armies early) to blast holes in the line and try for a massive supply cutoff. Admittedly the sheer size of the attempted advance (along a front longer than Maine to Florida) means that any generally large push may create gaps that can be exploited by the defending side for a counter-attack, and this helps prudentially slow down temptations to advance, lest the attacker be flanked by a whole other part of the line.

All the super-large games I mentioned above, in my opinion, model factors which make the slugfest interesting. Certainly in DC3, Russia isn't foregone as the winner; on the contrary, for scoring purposes the German score is divided by half (and then both scores are multiplied by a somewhat-fluid difficulty factor). As with most game designs, the question is whether the player can do as good as or better than the historical outcome. If I'm waltzing into Warsaw with the Germans fleeing before me by the end of Barbarossa, someone didn't design the game right. ;)

[JasonPratt]

The sweeping armor movements is why I like the East Front. Nothing like cracking the weak spot in the line with infantry and rushing your armor through to unhinge the defensive line.

Absolutely. The top five (or more) armor battles in history were fought on the Eastern Front, several during Barbarossa (although details have been completely lost) -- no other front comes close.

Was it a slogfest, sure -- German veterans called it "the long walk". But it was a slogfest with literally unimaginable amounts of armor (and artillery), and a lot of the strategy involved trying to set up or stop racing those panzers and T-34s around like sports cars.

[Killjoy12]

Got the hardcopy manual today - it's impressive!

[JasonPratt]

It's pretty. Already a little outdated, but pretty. 

[Queeg]

For me eastern front strategic/operational games have never really interested me since when I look at pictures it seems all games that represent this theatre end up with a million counters lined up from top to bottom with what appears to be little room for maneuvers and different outcomes. 

I own several more traditional Eastern Front games, but rarely play them for the reason you note.  I just don't have the time, patience or energy to move hundreds of counters every turn. 

The really nice thing about DC:B is that it's not just another case of death by a thousand counters.  The unit scale (divisions), with the unique overlay of an RPG-like decision layer, gives this a game a feel unlike any other Eastern Front game out there.  It's playable but still reasonably epic. 

I haven't enjoyed a war game this much in a long time.   

[Zulu1966]

For me eastern front strategic/operational games have never really interested me since when I look at pictures it seems all games that represent this theatre end up with a million counters lined up from top to bottom with what appears to be little room for maneuvers and different outcomes. 

I own several more traditional Eastern Front games, but rarely play them for the reason you note.  I just don't have the time, patience or energy to move hundreds of counters every turn. 

The really nice thing about DC:B is that it's not just another case of death by a thousand counters.  The unit scale (divisions), with the unique overlay of an RPG-like decision layer, gives this a game a feel unlike any other Eastern Front game out there.  It's playable but still reasonably epic. 

I haven't enjoyed a war game this much in a long time.

Yes I have to say - from my initial meddlings with it - it is quite something else - and that most unusual thing - different. I would liken it to why I used to love boardgames so much. Chrome. I always used to head straight for the special rules when opening the rules for the first time.

[panzerde]

I own several more traditional Eastern Front games, but rarely play them for the reason you note.  I just don't have the time, patience or energy to move hundreds of counters every turn. 

The really nice thing about DC:B is that it's not just another case of death by a thousand counters.  The unit scale (divisions), with the unique overlay of an RPG-like decision layer, gives this a game a feel unlike any other Eastern Front game out there.  It's playable but still reasonably epic. 

I haven't enjoyed a war game this much in a long time.

+1 QFT. Very much my feeling about this game, too. I'm one that gets in to horribly complex games, but this is simply the best computer wargame on the subject I've ever played. Now, if CO2 ever gets around to doing East Front between that and this I'll be in Nirvana...

[JasonPratt]

The new 1.00c beta patch has apparently left beta and become official, or so says my update check. 

[mikeck]

Still waiting for my manual. Shipped Monday but still not here.
I can't play without it

[-budd-]

Still waiting for my manual. Shipped Monday but still not here.
I can't play without it

calling it a manual just doesn't do it justice. Man is it nice.

[JasonPratt]

It's nice, but I use the pdf more. The hardcover printing is just bling.

[Queeg]

It's nice, but I use the pdf more. The hardcover printing is just bling.

Same here.  Great bling, though.

[FlickJax]

stopped reading manuals since they went PDF, perhaps thats why I suck at these games now ;)

[JasonPratt]

The tutorial videos do cover pretty much everything for this game. A nice surprise bonus.