Tigers on the Hunt

[GJK]

I played ASL last night at a local Cafe/Game store.  Had a blast and no computer game is going to replicate playing it face to face with a real opponent rolling real dice and (dare I say) working through the structured turn sequence.  The interactive Movement Phase/First Fire/Subsequent First Fire/Final Protective Fire/Final Fire/Defensive Fire Phase is the heart of what makes ASL ASL (and not Squad Leader).


The closest to having that face to face ASL feeling in a computer game was in the early days of Combat Mission playing by email.  The anticipation of getting that next log to see if your tank will spot that enemy tank that popped up just as the last turn ended was quite enjoyable.


I'm very happy for Peter and so glad that he got his labor of love published.  For me however, it ranks low on the chances to play; I'll first go with ftf ASL (another game set for Saturday), or if not, then on VASL and then if I'm really dying to play *someone* in ASL but have no other opportunities, then I might look at playing Peter's game.  Or, more likely, I'd fire up CMBB.  That's just me and my opinions though folks - had to chime in here and I'm sure Brant doesn't care to see an "ASL is the greatest game evahhhh flame war brew up so sorry in advance if my opinions steer it in that direction.

[Richie61]

I will agree with you on the face to face gaming. I would rather play Combat Commander, Panzer, Valor & Victory, just printed out Old School Tactical, Up Front with my twin boys than play a PC game.

Hell YEAH 1999 CMBO was flippin' sweet! Dial up e-mail! WOOT!  I didn't want to go to work the day after my floppy disc show up! Or maybe it was a CD, but I can't remember now  :-X

I think Peter's game is cool, but I highly doubt it will replace ASL. Both can survive just fine together IMO.  :)

[MikeGER]

... will I still enjoy it?

I think you will enjoy it if you look at it as an ASL-ish boardgame 'simulator'  (when counters mod are installed,
...playing against that buddy from the past, where it was difficult to find a free spot in both players RL schedules for to get a match running so it was a very rare event. activity which died down when the convenience of wargaming on the C64 showed up in the form of Kampfgruppe, Steel Panthers on the PC  and culminated later in the first Close Combat and Combat Mission releases)

Its not a polished modern game with each and any information of a unit dynamical always handy in a corner of the UI or popping up under the flowting cursor. for example you have to know and remember the movement point reaming.
like when looking at a board with counters

ASL-ish is a little bit like first 'programming' a group of units in your mind and then step by step execute that units complex behavior and interaction ...like testing a piece of software in single step mode in a robot programming development environment where you execute one line of code and see the results step by step.  but when all the pieces come together and you would just see its i a flow... that robot suddenly act like the latest human Atlas robot from Boston Dynamics when kicked, or  opening a door and hiking a snowy wood landscape   
       
and so the behavior of the unit on the board the gameplay has a special unique feeling of simulation reality.
its not about killing units, or rushing to a victory location
its about temporarily braking a units morale, forcing them to root back a hex or two to a save postion, there some units may get their shit together again and come back, more likely with the help of a leader in the stack.       

its hard to describe for me in a non native language, i am missing the poetic expression.

Sl/ASL-ish is like personally driving a original stagecoach from Phoenix to Tucson as the wagoner, hitch up the horses and all, then just hopping on a plane at PHX,  or rushing down the I 10 in a rental  ...you will reach Tuscon nevertheless but its a different journey   

[gameleaper]

ignore me, I'm daft I think

[jomni]

Sigh.  But you really need to avoid copyright issues or else this will not see the light of day.

[MikeGER]

Gameleaper, the intellectual property of Peter (and that is what the prize tag asked is for, where every potential customer can make up his mind personally if he want to pay that amount or not) is the inventing of an AI that you can actually play an ASL-ish game against. ...otherwise just go VASSAL for free, or even get the physical-world ASL starterkits

he invented that seasoned ASL buddy that never had time in the past and lived on the other side of the city, and that now guides you through all the phases, does all the hundreds of dice roles and cumbersome cumbersome table-searches and exception and rules lookups and what else in the background ...he just tells you the results like a gamemaster would in RPG. 

for me its not a game, its an SL/ASL-buddy (gamemaster) simulator

[jomni]

Actually if it is simulated well, you don't need the tables. You just need to employ real-life tactics.  There are no CRTs in real life.

[GJK]

Actually if it is simulated well, you don't need the tables. You just need to employ real-life tactics.  There are no CRTs in real life.

Ever played Phoenix Command?  There's a table for everything and every possible action that a thing or being can do is in a grid matrix of percentage chances and probabilities controlling whether something goes one way or the other.  Crazy but fun shit.   

And I want to get back to this comment by Jomni:

The Phases make ASL unique. Old timers think it's the epitome of squad level simulation. But modern games
did away with it (or maybe because they want to differentiate). And computer games hardly need it.

Maybe I'm just not understanding, but what turn-based game of any caliber, be it board or computer, doesn't use a turn/phase sequence to control the flow of the game?  Perhaps by saying "computer games" you're saying "RTS computer games"?  OR maybe you mean that in computer game versions, it's usually dumbed down to just a "move-fire" only sequence and the more complex 8+ phases per side thing doesn't fly with "modern" games?  I'm just curious about this remark - not to be argumentative; just curious.

On Tigers, I think MikeGER nails it with this comment:

for me its not a game, its an SL/ASL-buddy (gamemaster) simulator

[jomni]

Maybe I'm just not understanding, but what turn-based game of any caliber, be it board or computer, doesn't use a turn/phase sequence to control the flow of the game?  Perhaps by saying "computer games" you're saying "RTS computer games"?  OR maybe you mean that in computer game versions, it's usually dumbed down to just a "move-fire" only sequence and the more complex 8+ phases per side thing doesn't fly with "modern" games?  I'm just curious about this remark - not to be argumentative; just curious.

I meant the specific ASL Phases and the sequence. Most now are only using move fire, then we have WEGO then RT for a better simulation of combat.

[GJK]

Ah, ok, got ya.  Yeah, I can't think of any other recent computer wargames that use a detail SOP but then again, I haven't purchased or played very many over the recent years.

[Double Deuce]

Well, I pulled the trigger and got it. Played a few custom scenarios, really enjoying the game so far.

[panzerde]

gameleaper, I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't go back and remove the content of comments you make in the the thread. It makes it a lot harder to follow what's going on and kind of kills the point of a forum.

[Yskonyn]

^+1

You can freely trust and stand by what you've posted earlier. Even if you disagree with it now there is no harm done.
I have missed all your original posts as well and it has made this thread read so difficult to the point I can't do anything else but raise my eyebrows and shrug. ;)

[Double Deuce]

Anyone interested in playtesting a scenario I am working on (its an old ASL Scenario conversion involving the British and Germans in Norway). Just need another set of eyes to run through it from both sides and make sure the AI is at least trying to obtain their objectives as well as from the player side. Its company+ size engagement, 8 1/2 turns.

[Richie61]

Still tweaking counters to get that Squad Leader look  :D