Civil War in France?!

[Boggit]

I think part of the problem with migration is the lessons of integration need to be relearned/passed on to each area the migrants are fleeing to.  If you haven't experienced it before, or has been a long time since it has happened to your country, you may have forgotten some of the lessons the last wave taught your citizens/businesses/governments.  I think another part of the problem is that there are times when being an autocrat, or at least having the ability to temporarily imbue someone with the powers of diktat, would be helpful.  Being able to cut through red tape, order supplies and effort in needed areas, would be highly valuable to getting migrants settled.  And lastly, getting the new 'citizens' indoctrinated into the laws of the land.  And holding them accountable when they behave badly.  This is our country and if you want in, then you have to live as we do.  If not, you will be expelled.  It's not racism or hate, just the minimum expected behavior to be a citizen of ___.

Exactly! O0

[Boggit]

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

Well hopefully not, but it could happen where a visible minority act with a sense of complete entitlement and disregard for the laws and customs of the land that has been good enough to give them sanctuary. If the politicians of the land don't obviously care what happens to ordinary folk as a result of their migration policies there will be a move towards extremism on the part of native people if another political party promises order and safety where there is little perceived under the current regime.

The danger is that it tends to be more politically extreme parties offering that protection, and that can lead to the abyss. Mainstream politics need to wake up if they don't want to find themselves seen as irrelevant to ordinary people. I guess this is why Donald Trump in the US has been so successful, as is the case with the rise of the far right in Europe - they have popular appeal, particularly in response to people's fears unaddressed by mainstream politics. They may say/appear to be interested in the concerns of ordinary people, but who knows what agenda they will have if/or when they achieve political power as legislators. Maybe they will act on the fears of the electorate, but how, and what other "issues" will they have a view on? Sadly, totalitarian governments based on populist manifestos don't bode well historically, especially if you're in a group of people not seen as a good thing for the state.

I don't think it's ever too late for politicians to confront the real issues facing their countries, but they have to do it honestly, fairly, and without fear of being politically correct. They just must do the "right" thing - consistently, openly and honestly. That is what avoids the drift to extremist politics.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

Nothing quite so neutral I'm afraid.  Now that we have Zoolander as our PM, we're fully on board with European style stupidity and use the force of government to bully, threaten, and fine anyone who dares address problems related to the religion of peace.

Maybe you should be looking for a replacement PM? The EU is no example of good governance to anyone.

Love to but he and his entourage of zealots was just voted in.  They've been doing a bang up job so far.  We've learned that global warming is sexist.  It's up to two years in prison if you utter "hate speech" concerning trans-gendered types.  This includes not using their preferred pronoun.  If China publicly upbraids your senior cabinet members in front of everyone in the press gallery, you make damned sure he just sits there and takes it because your backers want greater trade with China.  It's perfectly OK to verbally and physically assault the member of the official opposition in Parliament if you don't get your way.  And best of all, bestiality is now legal as long as there's no penetration!  Thanks Justin!

[jejo68]

When natives feel like second class citizens there is a real problem.

Exactly the issue. A Polish friend of mine (himself a migrant who has integrated well into British life) was saying the other day that the issue is being so badly handled by mainstream government in France and Germany that the next Holocaust will be the muslims in Europe. While he and I have no sympathy for the bad guys, it is the vast majority of people who mean no harm at all who will suffer if that happens. And it might. When I asked an Italian friend about the situation in Italy, he was sad about it. He empathises with the poverty of migrants and their humanity, but pointed out that migrant crime is high, the detention centres and prisons are full. So what does Italy do? He told me about 15% of Italians want the army to hunt the migrants down. He understands their sentiment, as he recognises the problem it has become but can't stomach the idea.

And all this because the mainstream career politicians are afraid of confronting the issues on an equable basis, and because they fear being labelled "racist" if they challenge or discuss migration.

What they really need to do is control their borders, set in place a workable immigration policy that does not flood areas with migrants, that in managing the numbers of migrants that they also manage integration of migrants so there isn't the "them and us" cultures. That calls for firm governance, and also needs to show that migrants understand that being a citizen carries responsibilities as well as rights. The need of integration is achieved by creating a common identity, rather than going down the route of multiculturalism and "diversity", which is simply a form of segregating people into identifiable groups, which then struggle for precedence in society. Mass migration is a failure for trying to achieve integration, as it just chokes and swamps the process, which needs time for adjustment. A good example of integration working is the USA. In many respects (not all, and yes it is still imperfect but) the US has been successful in creating Americans first with whatever heritage migrants brought with them second. This is what I'm arguing for as the best way to start resolving this issue.

I have no problem with people being proud of their heritage, but in an age of migration you need a common bond that integration brings if you are to live together in comparative peace.

What they need to do is send people that cant support themselves back home. Im sick and tired of hearing that the host country needs to integrate people, no the immigrants needs to get a freaking job and integrate themselves, and if they cant then leave. Thats how its always been, but now we have to pay them to stay in our own country, we have to move behind the Que for housing. And in Denmark at least, now the immigrants gets a bonus check in the arse when applying for jobs, so now we also have to be second in line for jobs.

[Boggit]

What they need to do is send people that cant support themselves back home. Im sick and tired of hearing that the host country needs to integrate people, no the immigrants needs to get a freaking job and integrate themselves, and if they cant then leave. Thats how its always been, but now we have to pay them to stay in our own country, we have to move behind the Que for housing. And in Denmark at least, now the immigrants gets a bonus check in the arse when applying for jobs, so now we also have to be second in line for jobs.

This is partly my point. If legal migrants did not flood areas to create alien ghettoes to permit controlled integration, on the whole behaved the same, and were treated  on an equal footing in terms of rights as native Danes would you still have an issue with them?

[Boggit]

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

Well hopefully not, but it could happen where a visible minority act with a sense of complete entitlement and disregard for the laws and customs of the land that has been good enough to give them sanctuary. If the politicians of the land don't obviously care what happens to ordinary folk as a result of their migration policies there will be a move towards extremism on the part of native people if another political party promises order and safety where there is little perceived under the current regime.

The danger is that it tends to be more politically extreme parties offering that protection, and that can lead to the abyss. Mainstream politics need to wake up if they don't want to find themselves seen as irrelevant to ordinary people. I guess this is why Donald Trump in the US has been so successful, as is the case with the rise of the far right in Europe - they have popular appeal, particularly in response to people's fears unaddressed by mainstream politics. They may say/appear to be interested in the concerns of ordinary people, but who knows what agenda they will have if/or when they achieve political power as legislators. Maybe they will act on the fears of the electorate, but how, and what other "issues" will they have a view on? Sadly, totalitarian governments based on populist manifestos don't bode well historically, especially if you're in a group of people not seen as a good thing for the state.

I don't think it's ever too late for politicians to confront the real issues facing their countries, but they have to do it honestly, fairly, and without fear of being politically correct. They just must do the "right" thing - consistently, openly and honestly. That is what avoids the drift to extremist politics.

I'd just add that since this post there has been an atrocity in Orlando. The usual political "Charlie Hebdo" outpourings from the political mainstream have happened, and people are naturally very angry. Of course, the question arises about who did this, and once again it is an Islamic terrorist. Once again people will naturally comment that you don't see much of Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Taoist, Shinto, Atheist, Buddhist, Mormon, or Jehovah Witness etc terrorism in the West and will draw their own conclusions regarding the true nature of Islam. Of course, the majority of Muslims are not committing terrorism, but there is a consistency in the simple truth that most of the terror groups we see today have a clear connection with Islam/Islamist ideals which becomes harder for people to dismiss as coincidence. Despite the denials of Imams in Florida, many people will dismiss this as damage limitation for the Muslim community, after all the same thing occurs every time there is an atrocity with Islamists. The consequence of this is pretty horrible for Muslims who have nothing to do with this because of the trust issues with the rest of the community. How much sympathy would they get now if someone burned down, or bombed a mosque in New York "in retaliation" with the entire community in it?

It is not enough for the mainstream politicians to wring their hands any more, unless they just don't seriously care about the next atrocity, which you can safely bet will happen. It will be tough on Muslims across the board (simply because most, I suggest are absolutely innocent), but the pressure really is upon them to show that they are a religion of peace, more so than any other because of the regularity of what is done "in their name".

This is why I replied to Gus in the way I did.

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

Well hopefully not, but it could happen where a visible minority act with a sense of complete entitlement and disregard for the laws and customs of the land that has been good enough to give them sanctuary. If the politicians of the land don't obviously care what happens to ordinary folk as a result of their migration policies there will be a move towards extremism on the part of native people if another political party promises order and safety where there is little perceived under the current regime.

The danger is that it tends to be more politically extreme parties offering that protection, and that can lead to the abyss. Mainstream politics need to wake up if they don't want to find themselves seen as irrelevant to ordinary people. I guess this is why Donald Trump in the US has been so successful, as is the case with the rise of the far right in Europe - they have popular appeal, particularly in response to people's fears unaddressed by mainstream politics. They may say/appear to be interested in the concerns of ordinary people, but who knows what agenda they will have if/or when they achieve political power as legislators. Maybe they will act on the fears of the electorate, but how, and what other "issues" will they have a view on? Sadly, totalitarian governments based on populist manifestos don't bode well historically, especially if you're in a group of people not seen as a good thing for the state.

I don't think it's ever too late for politicians to confront the real issues facing their countries, but they have to do it honestly, fairly, and without fear of being politically correct. They just must do the "right" thing - consistently, openly and honestly. That is what avoids the drift to extremist politics.

I notice that while Obama and Clinton have done the hand wringing "Charlie Hebdo" ritual, Donald Trump has taken political advantage by promising firm government to deal with this... which of course is what people will want to hear. I absolutely hate being proved right on a point of this nature the very next day by a massacre of innocent people. Horrible, and sad. :'( I truly feel for the families and survivors of the atrocity, at the cruel injustice of it, but that doesn't push back the event.

[JasonPratt]

https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10154366393306336/

Extremist with ties to ISIS, kills a French chief of police, tortures wife and toddler, streamed it live on Facebook. ~ 8 hours ago.

[W8taminute]

What's been disturbing me the past few months is the growing movements of extreme nationalism with the youth of Europe.  Forced multiculturalism doesn't work.  It defies logic and unless more people are willing to acknowledge this and discuss the matter peacefully then the logical conclusion is one that no sane person wants.  Below are some examples of the frustration the youth of Europe are expressing.

[JasonPratt]

Well, that looked liberal, except not. ;) It's hard for me to take seriously their "declaration of war", or that they would even use that term and expect to be taken seriously -- they have only cheapened the expression (further).

The united nationalism sentiment is interesting, though. Maybe productive. Maybe not: they decry multi-culturalism in principle, but are calling for a multi-cultural Europe in effect -- a group of cultures in a span of territory that is so much the Mother of War that most strategy games center on the area regardless of the era! It seems pretty clear they don't want that, but cooperation between the diverse cultures of Europe.

But it's the diverse cultures of Europe, with a broadly similar Gaulish / Germanic background, plus broadly similar (Greco-)Roman background (although more Latin than Greco-Roman), plus broadly similar Christian background, plus I suppose a broadly similar post-Christian secular background.

Yet those categories are themselves quite different from each other culturally, even when they work somewhat well with each other sometimes. I wonder what they regard as the glue that would hold them together against Middle-Eastern / Muslim culture(s) on one hand, without factionalizing into war with each other once again on the other hand?

It seems like a sort of confederation of American states notion -- if we can do it, they can do it -- but 'we' struggled with an idea that only barely skirted forced multiculturalism, and succeeded (more or less) in true multicultural cooperation under a sort of Pax Americana in heir to the cooperative political Imperial ideals of Greco-Rome combined with the single if fractured religious ideals of Catholic and Protestant Christianity, and its somewhat offshoot deisms in our early history. And even then we fought a catastrophic civil war over whether (in essence) a federal union or a confederation of states was the best way, or the least tyrannical way, to implement those ideas and ideals.

[GDS_Starfury]

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

I'm still good with making most of the middle east a glass floored self lit parking lot.

[Boggit]

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

I'm still good with making most of the middle east a glass floored self lit parking lot.

Lol! ;D So do a lot of people. However, as much of the middle east has migrated to Germany and Sweden we might have to find a way that deals with the way some people act and think, so we don't feel compelled to kill each other.

[Staggerwing]

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

I'm still good with making most of the middle east a glass floored self lit parking lot.

Aside from the obvious, perhaps we could also make an exception for the areas occupied by the Kurdish and Yazidi populace?

[Boggit]

God willing there will never be a genocide like the Holocaust anywhere ever again.

I'm still good with making most of the middle east a glass floored self lit parking lot.

Aside from the obvious, perhaps we could also make an exception for the areas occupied by the Kurdish and Yazidi populace?

+1 They are just as much victims in this case. O0