UK Leaving the EU?

[Steelgrave]

The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?

This.

As a moderator, I want to commend everyone who has participated in this thread for keeping such an emotional, strongly felt issue so civil. I've seen disagreements over wargames turn uglier than this, not to mention our threads on U.S. politics.

Good job and gold stars for all. Carry on.   O0

[Boggit]

This is going to be funny....very funny....

Good luck guys....you'll need it 

It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.

A majority has voted and it has to be respected and the Brexit will take place. The opinions and the fears of the losers also have to be respected. This is what the experience of people living in a real democracy have learned.

We're not part of it....

Sorry to say but it has nothing to do with courage...

And about 17 million people didn't want to leave, yet you speak in their name...

That's what happens when you allow people to vote.  Amazing, when a vote doesn't go someone way, they already the sudden don't like it very well.  But when the vote goes their way, it's the best thing in the world and losers need to sit there and shut up.

The majority has voted and the Brexit will take place. The fears and the opinions of the losers also have to be respected. That's what you learn in a real democracy.

Anyway...i am serious when i wish good luck because it's going to be rough ride...

Fair enough. :)

I agree with you that the scope of the vote on both sides means that the process needs to be handled sensitively. I am not unsympathetic to the remain voters, but you also need to understand that they have subjected to a lot of government propaganda that the government and remain campaign are only - now the referendum is over - admitting to. Given the quite brutal (at times) claims, a remain vote was the "safe" vote, so I do understand their point of view. That we have since the referendum been subject to both veiled and more overt threats from the EU in order to intimidate other countries from an exit referendum has done nothing either to calm matters down.

I have been up all night with the referendum, so I admit to being less than tolerant when yet another person appears to be mocking what I feel is a brave, and ultimately correct decision. You are right that it isn't going to be made an easy ride, and I do appreciate the clarification you've made. I also appreciate the good will you are showing in your post towards the well being of my country. So I apologise if I have jumped down your throat on a misunderstanding of what you intended to say.

[Sir Slash]

Remember there was still a lot of war to fight after Yorktown-- not in America but elsewhere in the world the fight continued for years. Same here I expect. The Professional Politicians won't take this rejection of their overlordship powers well at all. First up, lawsuits probably to overturn the vote followed by more dire predictions of impending disaster and finally, every drought, famine, war, and Nut Case with a gun will be blamed on Brexit. I can't wait to hear all the problems here in the US blamed on it. But I for one am VERY proud this morning of The Mother Country.

[Anguille]

I have been up all night with the referendum, so I admit to being less than tolerant when yet another person appears to be mocking what I feel is a brave, and ultimately correct decision. You are right that it isn't going to be made an easy ride, and I do appreciate the clarification you've made. I also appreciate the good will you are showing in your post towards the well being of my country. So I apologise if I have jumped down your throat on a misunderstanding of what you intended to say.

We're cool  ;)

I deeply love GB and i am really concerned.

[Boggit]

Whoa lads.

To be fair to Boggit I think he knew that he wasn't speaking for the people who did not want to leave. When he was referring to what people wanted and their courage etc, etc, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking for the entire UK but actually just the 17 million that did vote for it. Sorry if I'm jumping into your post and getting my interpretation of your post wrong.

Rightly or wrongly, good or bad, it was a proportional representation referendum where every persons vote is worth the same as another persons and 52% of the populace that voted choose to take us out the EU.

I've heard people say "There should've been a minimum win proportion" - but I don't buy it. The majority vote went with Brexit and, like it or lump it, that's what's happening.

Anguille - I think by your post it was a bit flippant and so he defended his vote and the direction he's choose to take his country. I also think he assumed you were a member of an EU member state. Personally I don't know where you come from and you are entirely entitled to your opinion about the result and how it may affect the UK, the EU and whichever country you come from...but it was done rather flippantly on the back of what must be (for him) a euphoric moment.

The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?

Thank you all

By the way, I voted remain as did my wife and child. My wife cried this morning and my daughter text me one word (I was at work when she awoke from the dead)...it simply said "Shit". My wife, as I am and my daughters hugely proud to be British and European. My wife and kids are as proud to be English as I am to be Scottish

What's done is done.  O0

Thanks JD. O0 As usual you are spot on.

Believe it or not, I do empathise with your family. You did all you reasonably could to inform yourself, and you voted on the basis of that. Do I think you were wrong? No. I understand fully from our previous discussions why you voted the way you did. We're just two voters and whatever we did we were voting in a referendum that swallowed our votes without a blink given the millions of votes cast. I'm pleased with the result because I don't want to end up (or my family for that matter) in a federal state where the democratic mechanism will to all intent and purposes be dead. But I get very well where you and your family are coming from too, and it is an entirely different angle. I respect that.

It is my sincere hope that in spite of the uncertainties, and all the slings and arrows we'll undoubtedly go through, that we will come through this a better and more prosperous nation, of which we can all be proud. There is nothing wrong with your family regarding themselves British and European. We already are. Being European though is not the same as being part of a series of institutions with ambitions of statehood.

Whichever side of the referendum we took, it is on us now to put aside our differences and use the opportunity to do the best we can for our country and our families. We may have different approaches, but basically we want the same thing - for our families to have a bright future to look forward to. Respect JD. :)

[JudgeDredd]

I've also heard, and saw in the other/first Brexit thread, that Scotland is going to do another 'leave the UK' vote. I wasn't sure if I heard right, but also heard something about Belfast doing the same thing.

I've also heard, and saw in the other/first Brexit thread, that Scotland is going to do another 'leave the UK' vote. I wasn't sure if I heard right, but also heard something about Belfast doing the same thing.

Yeah...it seems very likely as they got about 62% of votes to stay in the EU.

Why did both Scotland and N. Ireland voted to stay in the EU. 

It was in the SNP's manifesto that

We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.

She's not daft though. She's a canny lass and I imagine she'll do her homework. She's not likely to "use up" another referendum on the basis of 62% of the 60% of voting population making a case to stay in the EU.

Basically, 2.6+m people in Scotland voted. 1.6m voted to remain in the EU an 1m voted to leave. That left 2m who didn't vote.

So she's saying "it's on the table" as per their Manifesto. So she's only saying it as a cautionary step (besides being pushed by the media)...but I don't think she'll push for one unless she guaranteed a win next time. She'd be daft to try otherwise.

[JudgeDredd]

Whoa lads.

To be fair to Boggit I think he knew that he wasn't speaking for the people who did not want to leave. When he was referring to what people wanted and their courage etc, etc, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking for the entire UK but actually just the 17 million that did vote for it. Sorry if I'm jumping into your post and getting my interpretation of your post wrong.

Rightly or wrongly, good or bad, it was a proportional representation referendum where every persons vote is worth the same as another persons and 52% of the populace that voted choose to take us out the EU.

I've heard people say "There should've been a minimum win proportion" - but I don't buy it. The majority vote went with Brexit and, like it or lump it, that's what's happening.

Anguille - I think by your post it was a bit flippant and so he defended his vote and the direction he's choose to take his country. I also think he assumed you were a member of an EU member state. Personally I don't know where you come from and you are entirely entitled to your opinion about the result and how it may affect the UK, the EU and whichever country you come from...but it was done rather flippantly on the back of what must be (for him) a euphoric moment.

The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?

Thank you all

By the way, I voted remain as did my wife and child. My wife cried this morning and my daughter text me one word (I was at work when she awoke from the dead)...it simply said "Shit". My wife, as I am and my daughters hugely proud to be British and European. My wife and kids are as proud to be English as I am to be Scottish

What's done is done.  O0

Thanks JD. O0 As usual you are spot on.

Believe it or not, I do empathise with your family. You did all you reasonably could to inform yourself, and you voted on the basis of that. Do I think you were wrong? No. I understand fully from our previous discussions why you voted the way you did. We're just two voters and whatever we did we were voting in a referendum that swallowed our votes without a blink given the millions of votes cast. I'm pleased with the result because I don't want to end up (or my family for that matter) in a federal state where the democratic mechanism will to all intent and purposes be dead. But I get very well where you and your family are coming from too, and it is an entirely different angle. I respect that.

It is my sincere hope that in spite of the uncertainties, and all the slings and arrows we'll undoubtedly go through, that we will come through this a better and more prosperous nation, of which we can all be proud. There is nothing wrong with your family regarding themselves British and European. We already are. Being European though is not the same as being part of a series of institutions with ambitions of statehood.

Whichever side of the referendum we took, it is on us now to put aside our differences and use the opportunity to do the best we can for our country and our families. We may have different approaches, but basically we want the same thing - for our families to have a bright future to look forward to. Respect JD. :)

lol - I don't think we have any differences - expect the obvious one and I know (from all our previous discussions) that you will have some empathy for those who voted remain.  O0

Lets see which bunch of bastards was lying most  ;D

[Boggit]

And yes, when you do a balance of the risks, it does require moral courage to do what you see is right.

I believe that you did this because you seem to have studied the question deeply. I don't think however that most people vote like that (any side).

Oh, I think you're completely correct. Most people on both sides of the argument were incredibly ill informed on the issues raised, and both sides have made some brazen claims, with remain being slightly worse. It became painfully obvious in the many interviews and debates. Sadly, a lot of the claims by both sides of the argument have been framed in such a way as to distort facts and mislead people. That of course was the intention, sadly.

I spent 2 years on my bachelor's degree studying EU law, and another on Constitutional and Administrative law, which involved a fair bit of EU law and its effect on domestic law. I did more post graduate, in practice as a lawyer, and kept in touch with it after I got ill. I was incredibly pro-EU until I studied it. Despite all the study, I realise I still only fully understand a fraction of it, but enough to make sense of the issues. ???

[Boggit]

Remember there was still a lot of war to fight after Yorktown-- not in America but elsewhere in the world the fight continued for years. Same here I expect. The Professional Politicians won't take this rejection of their overlordship powers well at all. First up, lawsuits probably to overturn the vote followed by more dire predictions of impending disaster and finally, every drought, famine, war, and Nut Case with a gun will be blamed on Brexit. I can't wait to hear all the problems here in the US blamed on it. But I for one am VERY proud this morning of The Mother Country.

Thanks Sir Slash. :)

As it is we're still a looooooong way to go. I doubt we'll be out of the EU for at least a couple of years. I really think it'll turn out fine in the end, but we just have to let things calm down, and then work with our European partners in a friendly, but fair way. To be honest, I recall my EU professor looking at the very same scenario about 19/20 years ago and predicting the internal collapse of the EU as an institution for the basic democratic deficit, and the economic stresses upon it from such divergent cultures and economies. He was quite good at his predictions.

It's going to be scary short term because it's all new and unprecedented. But the government's of the member states will settle down and do business when they get over it. The world has changed, but we'll adapt, and so will the member states of the EU. The EU won't but it is an institution that has outlived its time. What I hope will happen is that as more countries regain sovereignty they'll see the benefit of cooperation in their mutual self interest, learning from the mistakes of the EU experiment, but keeping the good stuff.

[Boggit]

We're cool  ;)

I deeply love GB and i am really concerned.

We are.  8)  O0

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't worry it'll work out. And it's good knowing we have friends that care. :)

[Boggit]

Lets see which bunch of bastards was lying most  ;D

How long have you got?

Hard to tell. What worries me is how the political landscape will change, with remain in the ascendancy? I might have voted leave, but aside from Gisela Stuart, I still have serious reservations about some of the other leave characters. That said some of the remain ones turn my stomach too, and wouldn't trust them further than I could throw them! I'm glad Cameron is going but I wouldn't have missed that weasel Osborne going either. ;)

[Boggit]

I've seen disagreements over wargames turn uglier than this, not to mention our threads on U.S. politics.

Well that would "Trump" this one... :D ;)

[JudgeDredd]

I feel exactly the same about Osborne and find it odd if he can continue. Afterall - he was the one that "made up" a very dark looking budget.

Lets see which bunch of bastards was lying most  ;D

How long have you got?

We have all......the time......in the world  ;D

And yes, when you do a balance of the risks, it does require moral courage to do what you see is right.

I believe that you did this because you seem to have studied the question deeply. I don't think however that most people vote like that (any side).

Oh, I think you're completely correct. Most people on both sides of the argument were incredibly ill informed on the issues raised, and both sides have made some brazen claims, with remain being slightly worse. It became painfully obvious in the many interviews and debates. Sadly, a lot of the claims by both sides of the argument have been framed in such a way as to distort facts and mislead people. That of course was the intention, sadly.

I spent 2 years on my bachelor's degree studying EU law, and another on Constitutional and Administrative law, which involved a fair bit of EU law and its effect on domestic law. I did more post graduate, in practice as a lawyer, and kept in touch with it after I got ill. I was incredibly pro-EU until I studied it. Despite all the study, I realise I still only fully understand a fraction of it, but enough to make sense of the issues. ???

That's better  O0  ;D

[Sir Slash]

Does this mean that Britain has to move now? It can't be part of Europe anymore? Maybe if we got a bunch of ships, we could drag the island somewhere else. Maybe with a nicer climate. I think it'd fit nicely right in the middle of the Bahamas. And it would be closer so I could come visit. 

[JudgeDredd]

Budge up  ;D