Steel Division 1944 (by wargame red dragon devs) in game trailer and unit stream

[jomni]

Played the 3rd during beta. Found it hard to capture land.

[Jarhead0331]

Played the 3rd during beta. Found it hard to capture land.

Why? They have all the tools. Light on air, but everything else should be sufficient to seize and hold ground. Tremendous amount of armored, infantry and artillery firepower.

[Barthheart]

When you all play do you try to build up points to bring on "complete units" or just spend and bring on stuff when it's available?

For example, I always try to bring on infantry in units of 3 Rifle squads, a MMG or HMG, a mortar, a command section, and a specialty section (AT, flame etc). This costs about 200 points, +- depending on division. Then I can operate them as a self-contained combined force. MMG/HMG covers squads as they advance in leap frog fashion. Mortars for hitting enemy MGs. Command section keeps them altogether.

For tanks I try to bring on a command tank and 3 to 4 similar tanks to act as a unit.

This highly influences my force structures when setting up decks.

[JasonPratt]

Hmmmm.... must remember to bring early medium tanks to a fight with JP.  ;)

And Polish cavalry.

[JasonPratt]

So what if stuGs arent harder to hit because of their really low profile???

Well, I care, but only because my STuGs get routinely murdered by enemy armor. ;)

I ran a few 4x4 skirmishes yesterday testing some other deck builds, although I was still playing the Luftlanders; lots one, won one (both conquests -- the one I lost, was played on that map with the low ridgey hill in the middle. That was hella fun to invest with my airborne troops!  :D ) Took the time to create a pair of anti-tank task forces on the far left side, although I also had a lot of help from at least one of my AI teammates; I would move one set up maybe 100 yards  (maybe 50) while the others sat on overwatch, then bring the others up to parallel. I never lost a single unit of mixed Marders and STuGs (with a few surviving French tanks for flavor and machine gun support.)

[JasonPratt]

When you all play do you try to build up points to bring on "complete units" or just spend and bring on stuff when it's available?

Ideally I try to do the former, because I have found from experience that the latter is a losing proposition.  Some things like air power and rolling 88s are just too expensive to bring out as part of a bunch tho. I also don't worry much if I'm bringing out arty one at a time or in a bloc: even one arty can serve its purpose of messing with the enemy. I usually bring out AA only when it's needed in an area, too, so usually one at a time. Having said that, I could see some value in saving up to spam cheap AA (40 points each for decent AA) all over the map at once. Instant air blanket. I suspect the AI does this, although with so many Allied APCs remaining around as light air cover on the map it's hard to tell.


Meanwhile: those Hitler Youth and 17th SS Panzer decks!  That 3rd Spearhead deck with ALLLL THEEE SHERRRRMANNNSSSS is no joke either.

[JasonPratt]

It's not a substitute for a TO&E, however, much less the OOB for an actual battle.

Well, yes, it isn't Command Ops. Might help be a gateway to COps2 tho.

[JasonPratt]

Here are the other three kampfgruppes I was indirectly testing yesterday. I haven't played any of them directly yet, so I haven't polished them any.

First, "the Old Timers" from Eichenlaub's 716th division:



Notice that they have an absolute total of 40 slots! That means that they can sacrifice ability in two areas: for the 716th that's scouting and airpower. The 716th makes up for this by being reasonably strong in EVERYTHING ELSE... at least as far as stack numbers go. Since I had limited scout slots, I chose to pack up with tall stacks (4 and 5 units each) on everything, with the best quality I could get within that constraint. That includes scouts with a machine-gun Kubel in Phase A, so it can stay around and do a bit of work.

If I'm reading the abbreviations correctly (the game could stand more tooltips or some other clarity in this regard), most of my infantry are actually Italian veterans -- or maybe veterans of the Italian defense? I just realized looking this over that I didn't bring enough leaders for this gruppe, so I replaced one stack of Pioneers with another stack of Pioneerfuhrers.

Since I have literally no good tanks in this division -- they're all repurposed French light tanks, even in phase C -- I just elected not to have any tanks at all, although in polishing I might decide to sacrifice those two slots of little infantry support howitzers and add some Panzer 355 leader tanks stacks for Phase B and C. I suspect however they'd be more fragile than normal leaders.

Everything in this deck is geared toward supporting my infantry swarm, and/or supporting my allies. The 716th can cover the map in 88s for example; I can even get one out in Phase A! I can roll out a fair number of Lorraines which I can shoot-and-scoot if they draw counter-battery fire. What they and the 120 mm (!!) mortars aren't good at, though, is anti-armor. Also, those 120mm mortars are my best Phase C overall -- I don't get any more self-propelled arty, much less anything with armor, and the technically stronger items are off-map field and rail guns which, while nice, are very limited and I have a hard time properly using them.


Next up, the 21st Panzer Division, Rommel's Circus:



You might think, "Wow, Rommel's!? It must rule everything!" But in fact it's rather a cobbled-together group that tends to favor light armor. Given its weaknesses, I decided to sacrifice all my infantry and mechanize up all my other slots to the full. My only heavy tanks are a pair of King Tigers in Phase C. Everything else is Panzer 4; even my anti-tanks in late phases are only Marder 1's! But nothing gets pushed around, it's all mobile armor if I can help it, and multiples per stack. That especially includes the scouts, since without infantry I need them to help detect and repel infantry ambushes. However, I'm very weak in Phase A scouting, although I still bring what rolling machineguns I can get.

This then is a "Panzer Scout" Kampfgruppe -- it can run fast and hit hard for a fast moving unit, but it isn't meant to strike fear in the heart of the enemy.


That's the job of the Panzer-Lehr. Or as I call this Gruppe, "the Panzer Fear".  :D



Like Rommel's Panzer Scouts, it only has 36 slots; unlike the scouts, quite notably, I only put one scout in (though it's a good one). It's only averagely good at everything in terms of slots, but by sacrificing almost all my scouts I loaded up on quality armor and a fair number of good Phase A infantry to hassle the map until my hideously overpowered armors start to arrive in Phase B. Granted, I'm weak on leaders -- really weak -- and I lack sheer numbers to push around the map. But when I have Tigers (6 elite ones in Phase B!) and Panthers (plus steady JagdIVs) out the wazoo, then I'm fine with borrowing leaders from other gruppes on the board if I have to.  :D


Notice that each gruppe, while it might do okay by itself, is really meant to supplement the other three. The Quality Luftlanders bring the heavy infantry and the air power, plus some decent strength in other regards. The Old Timers bring the infantry spam and the spam support. The Panzer Scouts bring the armor flood. The Panzer Fear doesn't do much in Phase A, but brings constant heavy armor and mechanized support vehicles to help spike other task forces on the map.


If anyone would like to try those builds, copy-paste these codes into your battlegroup builder using the "import" button.

Quality Luftlanders: HxiUwpQRlZKWMpTSlOGUAZLxk6OTIpKilHKSkpNilLGUopPBlWGV0pYBlRGWQZLRlEI=

Old timers: HhmQoo/ij0KQIY5xjmGOUZFykFKQ0pGCj7OPopERkWGQYpFBkTKO0Y6yjsGO4ZIxkaKRsg==

Rommel's Panzer Scouts: GxmBMYGyvFGDQYMzgMGDIYDSgqGDEoPhglKCQYVhhHGE4oGBhBKE0YEhhEGBEbfCg/KDsg==

The Panzer Fear: IBOXYZgjmEOac5fhlxOXMpdCltKaQZchmqGYUpoylsKZkpmzl5GYsQ==

:bd:

[jomni]

Played the 3rd during beta. Found it hard to capture land.

Why? They have all the tools. Light on air, but everything else should be sufficient to seize and hold ground. Tremendous amount of armored, infantry and artillery firepower.

I don't know.  I previously thought they're better at destruction matches.  Just not playing right I guess.

Update: I just won conquest recently vs easy AI.  Used more infantry. Not a lot of tanks.

[JasonPratt]

I played three solo matches this afternoon, one with each new deck, 30 minutes each, destruction, no point cap, medium income rate, and 250 starting budget (so that things would escalate from a little), against random Allied decks.

The Panzer Scout deck, the one with no infantry at all, did not do well. I think I didn't have enough in Phase A to keep the enemy from getting enough ground to out-produce me in Phase B (because taking ground gives a bonus to income in the various phases, when playing destruction). But it might have been that the map was a little too not-open, or possibly I pushed too far forward at first -- because now that I recall, I did hold my forward line (barely) into Phase B when all my Panzer 4s started to release (not counting the anti-infantry Pz4s I got in Phase A). I shall have to play again and reconsider if I just got dealt a random deck that didn't suit my build.

The Old Timers won their destruction match pretty handily, and on a map with a lot of shooting distance when I really thought they might do better buttoning up in areas.

The Panzer Fear deck, I played twice. The first time was a total disaster; the second time (on the same map but it was shuffled and flipped around randomly) I put more infantry out at first and saved my few scout cars for later. Phase A was tough, but aside from the scout cars I ended up putting all my A into the field, which from a low-credit medium-income start seems efficient. When Phase B started I had saved up enough to put an Elite Tiger with some air protection and soon afterward one of my scout cars. I won that match, but the other team was coming back toward the end -- however, I still had loads of armor I could have put out, lots of Panthers remaining, that sort of thing.

I decided that the Panzer Fear deck, while it has envious artillery, should avoid trying to go that route. I took out one stack each of my Tigers and Panthers (taking out that elite Tiger B phase stack was a little physically painful, but I realized I should just have to "make do" with only 4 early elite Tigers  ) and most of my arty, save two Panzer IV tanks which serve as forward observers for off-map artillery -- which I might not even use, but I had used up all my other slots so I could still take them. Pz4 tanks are still Pz4 tanks after all. In return, I loaded up on the strongest scout cars that Lehr has available. I haven't tested the new build yet, but it should help me spot targets for my Tigers and Panthers better. (I also traded in my Storchs which died quickly anyway, for an elite dogfighter.) This deck is meant to be more of a support deck anyway.

[ComradeP]

Great comments. When I upgrade my PC, I might get into this.

JP: Eichenlaub Division just means "Oak Leaf division" after the insignia. The 252nd Infanterie Division was nicknamed the Eichenlaub Division as well, but there were multiple divisions using some form of oak leaf insignia.

The commander is Generalleutnant Wilhelm Richter. I see they've tried to get the correct leader pictures in place.

Ita. Freiwillige means Italienische Freiwillige, or Italian Volunteers like you already thought. What they're doing in Normandy, I don't know. The infantryman is holding a Beretta Model 38 or 38a.

It was quite the SMG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLErRfvbeeY

As to the game: are experienced stacks smaller than regular ones? It can be tricky to balance quality and quantity in a game where experienced units are smaller in size or more expensive to the extent that you'll always have less of them.

[JasonPratt]

Ah, thanks! -- I think I knew "Oak leaf" was the translation, but still thought that was someone's name. Had I moused over the portrait, the tooltip would have shown Richter.

The "Freiwillige" did in my head connote volunteers, but I couldn't figure out why veteran volunteers from Italy would be in Normandy. The Germans did have a lot of European Allied troops in the area helping out, so some Italian troops aren't impossible; after the capitulation of Italian command, they could have signed over to the United Europe idea of the Reich. Why they'd be in Normandy instead of in the Alps, I don't know, but the Western Command was desperate for any troops to man and support the Atlantic wall.

As to the game: are experienced stacks smaller than regular ones? It can be tricky to balance quality and quantity in a game where experienced units are smaller in size or more expensive to the extent that you'll always have less of them.

Yes, experienced stacks will be shorter (fewer units per stack) than less experienced units of the same type. Sometimes shorter stacks of the same experience can be available in early phases, too, like the 88 Flak in Phase A of the Eichenlaubs.


After writing my critique of my Panzer Fear deck last night, I have about decided that I should sacrifice other tanks for the 6 elite Tigers available from Phase B onward. I've got to finish producing the Turn 5 episode of my DC:Blitz mp game vs Barth this afternoon, though, before I get back to playtime. ;)

[glen55]

Mind-boggling to me that people play multiplayer on normal speed. I play single-player mostly on bullet time and never faster than very slow. I'm sure I'll speed up a little when I become proficient - I'm only in about my 3rd battle.

Normal speed just doesn't seem to me like it would be fun. There's so much going on that the game gets away from me on very slow.

[JasonPratt]

I've been practicing on normal speed (including for those runs), just so I can play mp. I definitely would prefer slow and very slow (and the bullet-time pause) otherwise.

[Jarhead0331]

Mind-boggling to me that people play multiplayer on normal speed. I play single-player mostly on bullet time and never faster than very slow. I'm sure I'll speed up a little when I become proficient - I'm only in about my 3rd battle.

Normal speed just doesn't seem to me like it would be fun. There's so much going on that the game gets away from me on very slow.

How do you play mostly on bullet time? I mean, its practically a pause...I play mostly on normal and go down to slow or very slow when my attention must be divided on more than one section of the map...I find bullet time necessary only in the occasional unusual circumstance.