Warlock - Some good & bad points

[airboy]

I played Warlock this weekend.  Bought it on sale for $10 - well worth the price.

This is a good fantasy/combat/magic turn-based, building combat game.  I agree with the others including Jim's review that the diplomacy function is weak.  There are three serious shortcomings in the game.

Shortcoming #1 - the multiple planes are useless.
The game has the ability to include multiple planes of existance.  But there is not any real reward for going to another plane.  The wandering monsters build up to frightening levels if you go down mid to late game (when many do).  The gains from hitting another plane are meagure compared to just fighting it out on the main plane of existance.

Shortcoming #2 - Sea travel
Sea travel is very weak.  Your units cannot transport by water except in very slow and vulnerable transport form or by very mana intensive magic (if you are making a sizable force amphibious).  Wandering monsters on the waves are even deadlier than on land.  Your handful of sea/flying units get crushed.  There really is no easy way around this design flaw.  I suggest playing on one big continent or having no sea at all.  Eliminates the problem.

Shortcoming #3 - No Roads
You can't build roads.  Really.  No roads in a Civ/Master of Magic type game.  This makes repositioning your forces very slow. 
The only way to build "roads" is to found a city in a wilderness, build buildings, you can fast travel over the buildings.\

Sum it up, my complaints are all about road nets (planar travel, sea travel, and roadless land travel).

Other than that, this is a hell of a combat focused, turn based fantasy combat game.  Best since Master of Magic by far.

[LongBlade]

Great summary, Airboy. Thanks. I think you nailed it.

[FarAway Sooner]

Come on, Airboy, don't be so hidebound by existing gaming conventions.  Without getting too literal, it doesn't seem to me that many civilizations were able to build high-quality roads across the middle of nowhere until the 20th century.  I mean, that was what railroads finally accomplished in the most populous parts of the world in the 19th century!

Maybe some ancient historians can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the Roman highway system was a bit exaggerated.

Otherwise, I like your thoughts on the game.  I haven't yet finished my first game, but am most of the way there.  I'm impressed by how immersive the combat gets.

It feels like a game where the ultra-planar thing ought to be easy to fix.  Just make those planes a little less fearsome, and/or have some opponents who start out there.  OR, roll out a MP patch and see what human players playing online can do when they have access to multiple planes?

[Nefaro]

I played Warlock this weekend.  Bought it on sale for $10 - well worth the price.

This is a good fantasy/combat/magic turn-based, building combat game.  I agree with the others including Jim's review that the diplomacy function is weak.  There are three serious shortcomings in the game.

Shortcoming #1 - the multiple planes are useless.
The game has the ability to include multiple planes of existance.  But there is not any real reward for going to another plane.  The wandering monsters build up to frightening levels if you go down mid to late game (when many do).  The gains from hitting another plane are meagure compared to just fighting it out on the main plane of existance.

Yes,  they are pretty much useless at the moment.  I think part of the reason is that the AI doesn't use them.  If it did, and succeeded in being able to pump out dragons and fire elementals & such in the later game, then that might incline us to do the same.  Right now, it doesn't. 

Shortcoming #2 - Sea travel
Sea travel is very weak.  Your units cannot transport by water except in very slow and vulnerable transport form or by very mana intensive magic (if you are making a sizable force amphibious).  Wandering monsters on the waves are even deadlier than on land.  Your handful of sea/flying units get crushed.  There really is no easy way around this design flaw.  I suggest playing on one big continent or having no sea at all.  Eliminates the problem.

I think the sea travel is fine as-is.  It should entail the risk of losing your land combat units, when you are trying to move them via cargo ship.  Actually, I was a bit alarmed that those transport ships can still fire with some effectiveness from range.  The sea is one of the few terrain considerations you must take into tactical account in this game, as much of the land terrain is just varying movement penalties, and that's it.  The Sea Monsters are a good way to keep you from swarming across them in the early game due to fear.  I actually think the game's difficulty could still be raised in some ways, but the sea facet seems passable to me. *shrug*

Shortcoming #3 - No Roads
You can't build roads.  Really.  No roads in a Civ/Master of Magic type game.  This makes repositioning your forces very slow. 
The only way to build "roads" is to found a city in a wilderness, build buildings, you can fast travel over the buildings.\

You don't build roads, but your placement of your city improvements lessens the movement cost in the hexes you build them in.  Yes, the placement of your new buildings does make a difference.  It essentially gives you "roads" where you develop.  While you don't have Civilization-style builders out hacking away roads out in the middle of nowhere for you, this isn't Civ.

Sum it up, my complaints are all about road nets (planar travel, sea travel, and roadless land travel).

Other than that, this is a hell of a combat focused, turn based fantasy combat game.  Best since Master of Magic by far.

Like I said, it's not Civ even though the UI looks like it.  I would certainly like to see more on the building/progression side of the game but it's mostly focused towards warfare.   The AI needs to be able to assault the extra planes if there's to be any reason to go.  But your other issues seem to come from a .. different.. game.  :D

[Steelgrave]

Thoughts on #1 and #2........

#1: The other planes are a bear, but a little ingenuity can turn them into a cakewalk. I don't tackle them until I start getting some high end units, like Court Werewolves. Once you have a hand-full of them, be patient enough to slap Invisibility on each unit (at least 6) and....don't laugh....Levitate. Yes, the idea of invisible flying wearwolves is more than a bit ludicrous, but once you pop them through the portal you can start ganging up on the flying units and take them out easily. Create a perimeter at the end of each turn so your units keep their invisibility, then when you get some breathing room you can start popping more units in until you can place a city or two. And don't ignore the Court Werewolves ability to throw acid bombs. That little trick will clear out a lot of the elementals and lessor beasties.

The payoff? Dragon eggs and some of the special materials found lead to cool units. Also, there tend to be lots and lots of magic sources down there, further powering your empire. Having the planes in play is not a necessity by any means (so I usually set it to two), but it's icing. And kicking dragon butt by the dozens adds to the fun :)

#2 Next time I start a game of Warlock (sometime in the future when I'm Civ'ved out), I will likely reduce the amount of seas. So I'm in agreement there. One helpful feature however is Bats with an invisibility spell for scouting (land and sea), then a small squadron of frigates (like 6) will usually take care of most sea creatures. The kraken especially tend to have decent treasure. Like the planes, if you don't care for it, modify your game at the start. Heck, it's all about enjoyment anyway. Oh and hey....once you've established a presence on the planes, a golden flying dragon ported topside is a wonderful tool for enforcing your will at sea :)

My biggest issue with Warlock? The diplomacy is almost a game-killer for me. Each time you get any kind of stack, one or more of your competitors will want a sizable donation. And unlike Civ, the only option is to give it to them or go to war. Sadly, paying them off is usually your only option if most of your army is on the other side of the map. Therefore, I spend everything I can (coin and magic) each turn, unless I'm saving up for those flying, invisible Court Werewolves that cost $600 to upgrade. But the diplomacy is repetitive and irritating. They should fix it or take it out.

[Greybriar]

For what it's worth, diplomacy is a joke. Just declare war to the AI's demands. You're going to eventually anyway.

I took a party of mostly Stubborn Knights into one of the planes and did okay. But there's so much to do in the normal play world that I generally just ignore the planes as much as possible.

I really don't see a major problem with sea travel. It's just another challenge that requires a bit of planning.

The absence of roads is why I always spam cities early on.

Despite its "flaws" I still consider Warlock: Master of the Arcane the best PC game I have purchased so far this year.

[joram]

Like Steelgrave said, it's not terribly hard to conquer other planes if you do it right.  The right key turns it into, if not a cakewalk, at least a very manageable task.  I think the real issue with alternate planes is that the AI doesn't know how to use them and can't handle very well the mass of spawns that come through the portal.

Roads have been addressed already.  Just build in such a way that makes it work.

I get your point about sea travel but I think it should be treacherous.  In any case, two or three boats with occasional use of a spell here and there make clearing out sea monsters a slow but definitely doable task. 

[airboy]

Come on, Airboy, don't be so hidebound by existing gaming conventions.  Without getting too literal, it doesn't seem to me that many civilizations were able to build high-quality roads across the middle of nowhere until the 20th century.  I mean, that was what railroads finally accomplished in the most populous parts of the world in the 19th century!

Maybe some ancient historians can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the Roman highway system was a bit exaggerated.

Otherwise, I like your thoughts on the game.  I haven't yet finished my first game, but am most of the way there.  I'm impressed by how immersive the combat gets.

It feels like a game where the ultra-planar thing ought to be easy to fix.  Just make those planes a little less fearsome, and/or have some opponents who start out there.  OR, roll out a MP patch and see what human players playing online can do when they have access to multiple planes?

Travel speed in Europe with Roman roads was not equaled until steamships were invented.  Roman roads were a big deal, and the commuications and goods/troop movement were a major advancement in civilization.

I learned this in my Ancient History classes as an undergrad.  So to me roads are not so much of a gaming convention as a reality convention.

[Marty Ward]

Thoughts on #1 and #2........

#1: The other planes are a bear, but a little ingenuity can turn them into a cakewalk. I don't tackle them until I start getting some high end units, like Court Werewolves. Once you have a hand-full of them, be patient enough to slap Invisibility on each unit (at least 6) and....don't laugh....Levitate. Yes, the idea of invisible flying wearwolves is more than a bit ludicrous, but once you pop them through the portal you can start ganging up on the flying units and take them out easily. Create a perimeter at the end of each turn so your units keep their invisibility, then when you get some breathing room you can start popping more units in until you can place a city or two. And don't ignore the Court Werewolves ability to throw acid bombs. That little trick will clear out a lot of the elementals and lessor beasties.

Yes Levitation is the key. It removes about half the bad guys from the mix, earth elementals and other ground melee units can't attack you but you can use any unit to take out the dragons and anyone else you like. Plus you can move better. I also like to give my heavy hitter a Vampire weapon so I don't have to spend spells healing them , they repair themselves.

[ArizonaTank]

I can't say Warlock is brilliant...and certainly not ground-breaking; almost everything about it has been done before.  But its the overall mix and balance of all the features that make the game very good IMHO.  Has that 'just one more turn" thing going for it.

BTW, I have been playing the latest build of Elemental Fallen Enchantress, I am liking what I am seeing very much there as well.   

[FarAway Sooner]

Travel speed in Europe with Roman roads was not equaled until steamships were invented.  Roman roads were a big deal, and the commuications and goods/troop movement were a major advancement in civilization.

I learned this in my Ancient History classes as an undergrad.  So to me roads are not so much of a gaming convention as a reality convention.

Hmmm...  If it was in a classroom, it must have been the Gospel?  Kind of funny, because my own undergrad Ancient History classes took a slightly different view:  That while roads certainly helped to hold the Roman Empire together, it was a much looser governing body than is widely represented; that locals held a lot of the power and the Romans in the provinces were constantly balancing local factions off against each other to stay in power; and that the line between citizen and barbarian were pretty heavily blurred.

If the Roman roads were the fastest method of transportation prior to the invention of the steam ship, why did so many of the locals use ships for transport?

I'm not saying that roads don't matter.  I understand why people like them in their games, but the notion that they are an inherent part of every ancient civilization seems like more of a game play convention, especially if you assume that the time frame for this game in question seems to be months and seasons rather than years.

None of that denies your claim that lack of easy transit strategies was your biggest gripe with the game.  I just found the versimilitude critique rooted in a few assumptions that have as much to do with the conventions of 4X gaming as they do with historical research.

[Nefaro]

If we're gonna get technical (in a thread about a fantasy strategy game LOL) then rivers should be of the greatest value for travel.  ;D

[airboy]

FarAwaySooner

All good points.  Water travel was faster in ancient times as long as the weather permitted travel.  Land travel was faster in Roman times until steam power (and trains) were developed.  Even today, a very large amount of heavy freight still moves by water.  In the US, the Mississippi and the Oceans allow a lot of freight to be moved very inexpensively. 

Rome did allow governers quite a bit of power.  Playing factions off against each other was a Roman specialty.

Still, the road net and a common set of laws aided transport and trade far better than humanity saw until the industrial revolution.

Paved roads had a major impact on other ancient civilizations, including the Incas.

[Ulfang]

I played the demo and decided not to get it. It was fun but felt like I was playing a Civ V mod. If it was really cheap then it might be worth it but it wasn't great.

[FarAway Sooner]

FarAwaySooner

All good points.  Water travel was faster in ancient times as long as the weather permitted travel.  Land travel was faster in Roman times until steam power (and trains) were developed.  Even today, a very large amount of heavy freight still moves by water.  In the US, the Mississippi and the Oceans allow a lot of freight to be moved very inexpensively. 

Rome did allow governers quite a bit of power.  Playing factions off against each other was a Roman specialty.

Still, the road net and a common set of laws aided transport and trade far better than humanity saw until the industrial revolution.

Paved roads had a major impact on other ancient civilizations, including the Incas.

I think I agree with everything here.  Including the part about the Incas.

However, Warlock operates at a peculiar scale of abstraction.  Given that we may be talking a few cities, and a time scale where each turn represents a month, or maybe a season, I'm OK with roads not being present.

Moving units different places takes a long time, but I haven't played the game enough yet to figure out whether that is a tactical/strategic challenges to be finessed, or just an annoying shortfall in the game.  It's certainly a deviation from 4x convention, I'll grant you...

Given some of the other details, it's not the most literally realistic game in the world.  But, for $20 and some engaging gameplay, I can make a few exceptions.  We'll see what I think of the game after I've played it a bit more!