Any 'real' Operational level Wargames out there?

SteveV · January 12, 2013, 09:38:31 AM

Nice to be here, I have been playing computer wargames since Theatre of War on a Sinclair Spectrum in the 1980's but have never really found 'the one' that hooks me in and keeps me playing for months at a time.

My problem is that I find computer wargames either too simplistic or too much like hard work and theres no middle ground. At the simplistic level i mean something like Panzer General 3D Assault or even Unity of Command where there are few units and they are more like abstractions than representations of real armed forces. At the 'hard work' level I mean the massive micro management of War In The East or even Operational Art Of War..I don't want to spend hours on each turn clicking through units. It seems to me that in reality all wargames are tactical rather than strategic because the gamer is forced to worry about whats happening at ludicrously low levels of command, thats why I stressed the word operational in the thread title. I don't believe that an actual operational level wargame has ever been produced.

I have played Panzer Corps and its ok, but still feels more like an arcade game than a 'real' wargame. i was looking at the Decisive Campaigns games but my heart sank when I read that in the full campaign for Case Blue you have 450 units to command.

What i am after is some High Level kind of game where you act as an Army Group or Army Commander but you only have to give orders two levels down at most (which is the way it works in real life). Therefore an Army Group commander would only need to give orders at Corps level or an Army commander down to Divisional level. It frustrates the hell out of me to supposedly be in command of an entire theatre of war and expected to move reconnaisance battalions and flak batteries around!

i have played the Command Ops Battle of The Bulge game and that is nice in the sense that you can give a Brigade or even Division HQ a timed set of orders and the AI commanders of the sub units within each will follow those orders to the best of their ability until you countermand them. The problem for me is that there is no actual campaign in the game and there's really no way to change history playing as the Germans.

Any ideas will be gratefully received...

besilarius · January 12, 2013, 09:41:06 AM

If ACW interests you, perhaps Scourge of War, Gettysburg?

SteveV · January 12, 2013, 09:53:15 AM

Its still all tactics, and I really wanted a campaign game rather than a single battle. The closest i ever saw to what i wanted was Napoleon:1813 where you had to basically rebuild the entire French army after the disaster in Russia and then fight the campaign that ended with the battle of Leipzig. You could choose which corps commanders to hire or fire and give each of them specific orders at a grand strategy level. Hell you could even auto-calc the battles, which was unique at the time.

Pity it was so buggy that it was unplayable..and never patched :-\

LongBlade · January 12, 2013, 10:03:21 AM

Welcome Steve!

Command Ops was going to be my suggestion but you have clearly tried it.

How about SSG's offerings? Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets might fill the bill. http://www.matrixgames.com/products/358/details/Kharkov:.Disaster.on.the.Donets

MetalDog · January 12, 2013, 10:17:49 AM

Welcome, Steve! Unfortunately, I have no suggestions for you. However, if you ever find a game like that, please don't hesitate to post it here. i would like to play it.

SteveV · January 12, 2013, 10:40:59 AM

Quote from: LongBlade on January 12, 2013, 10:03:21 AM
Welcome Steve!

Command Ops was going to be my suggestion but you have clearly tried it.

How about SSG's offerings? Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets might fill the bill. http://www.matrixgames.com/products/358/details/Kharkov:.Disaster.on.the.Donets

That looked interesting until i saw the unit scale was Battalion/Regiment level - hundreds of units again! I mean honestly, did Von Bock actually issue orders to every damn battalion under his command? Plus, it isn't really a campaign, just a collection of engagements linked to a single battle. There has to be SOMETHING thats more like grand strategy than this...

Grim.Reaper · January 12, 2013, 10:52:06 AM

I agree with your desires to find something like this, but really not sure anything exists that meets your requirements....if it did exist, we all would be playing it:)

Like you, I am not a fan of controlling a ton of units/counters and as you mentioned likely more realistic that you just participate in a level of the chain of command.

I'll be watching this thread to see if I had missed one from the past, otherwise lets hope a developer in the future does it.

sandman2575 · January 12, 2013, 10:53:33 AM

Quote from: SteveV on January 12, 2013, 09:38:31 AM

What i am after is some High Level kind of game where you act as an Army Group or Army Commander but you only have to give orders two levels down at most (which is the way it works in real life). Therefore an Army Group commander would only need to give orders at Corps level or an Army commander down to Divisional level. It frustrates the hell out of me to supposedly be in command of an entire theatre of war and expected to move reconnaisance battalions and flak batteries around!

This may be an unpopular suggestion, but possibly: Hearts of Iron 3

You can, if you want, use the AI control feature to 'take command' at any level in the OOB, down to division level. For example, by setting an Army to AI control, you can give it objectives to take, and it's then up to the subordinate Corps commanders to carry that out. You can also set parameters for how aggressively or not you want the AI to act, whether to use attached air assets, etc. You can also issue objectives to hold, rather than capture.

It's very flexible and gives you a lot of options. That said, the AI is no Von Manstein when it comes to implementing strategies. So in theory it's great, in practice there are definitely some headaches.

Of course, HoI3 doesn't have a lot of the 'granular' detail that you might want -- for ex., brigade / regiments grade strength by the notorious 'health bars' for manpower & organization -- nothing close to the ToE modeling you get in say WitE. So that's a weakness in my view.

Still, HoI3 does allow you to play on a grand strategic level if you want. I've always really liked the AI control feature -- it's the most innovative thing about the game, and may give you something approaching the 'just issue orders / less micromanagement' type of play you get in Battles from the Bulge or similar games, but at a higher operational level.

MetalDog · January 12, 2013, 11:00:47 AM

I thought of HOI as well initially. I haven't invested any time in it at all, so I can't speak to the function you described. It would be nice to watch all that play out though.

SteveV · January 12, 2013, 11:20:03 AM

Doesn't Hearts of Iron involve you in all sorts of global diplomacy and economic decision making as well? i think I played HOI Doomsday, is that the same as HOI 3? It may well be possible to have Operational level control of armed forces but theres dozens of other non-miltary screens to attend to on each turn that sap all of the enjoyment out of playing as i recall.

Longdan · January 12, 2013, 11:40:19 AM

Operational level in modern campaigns usually means command at the army and corps level
and thus your maneuver units would be battalions or sometimes regiments/brigades of which
there are a large number. Unless it is a small operation. Decisive Campaigns is operational,
Commander: Europe at War is Strategic but you command operations. That might be worth looking at.

Jarhead0331 · January 12, 2013, 11:49:40 AM

STAVKA-OKH

...and its free.

http://www.rodvik.com/rodgames/STAVKA-OKH.html

Longdan · January 12, 2013, 12:16:46 PM

Thanks again JH. First Imperialism 2. Now this. What else is in your bag of tricks?

MetalDog · January 12, 2013, 12:26:57 PM

Quote from: SteveV on January 12, 2013, 11:20:03 AM
Doesn't Hearts of Iron involve you in all sorts of global diplomacy and economic decision making as well? i think I played HOI Doomsday, is that the same as HOI 3? It may well be possible to have Operational level control of armed forces but theres dozens of other non-miltary screens to attend to on each turn that sap all of the enjoyment out of playing as i recall.

You have the right of it, Steve. However, those screens make the gamemore enjoyable for me, not less.

@Jarhead:

Going to check that link now. Thanks!

SteveV · January 12, 2013, 12:37:42 PM

Ha, that Stavka-OKH game is a nice little coffee break thing! Haven't worked out the mechanics of it after a couple of goes ...I have ended up as a historical advisor to the US Military both times, not sure if that counts as a win or not, presumably as i didn't get executed thats a good thing? :)