How a Zombie Wargame Explains Our Fail War in Afghanistan

[DicedT]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/01/28/sometimes_they_come_back

[LongBlade]

This is a good article. I wish it were longer.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

It would have to be much longer as it is far too simplistic. There are probably many reinforcing loops as well as countering loops. The assumption that they all want to kill/eat westerners is easily false. Things that would reinforce a desire to fight would be a death in the family seen related to the war, a home invasion by troops, a bleak existence that is relieved by a fiery sermon, etc. Things that would balance are  a potentially more secure existence, improving city conditions, work, access to better imported food, etc.

I think the benefit of a strike on an insurgent leader outweighs the angering of neighbours over the mess. They probably knew he was a POS, they probably dont care. Its the other factors along with those that can speak for or against that will sway them.

[bayonetbrant]

while the reasons behind the extra spawning are certainly different, as the grunt on the ground with the grenade launcher in-hand, the effect is probably remarkably similar.

in fact, you might could also re-shoot Blackhawk Down with zombies instead of Somalis and not have to change too much of the movie...

[eyebiter]

What was our real war goal in Afghanistan?  Revenge for 9/11? Nation building?  Divide and conqueror?  Or the hope with the Taliban and Afghan/Pakistani governments fighting each other they will leave the US alone?

[bayonetbrant]

What was our real war goal in Afghanistan?

dingdingdingdingdingdingding

give that man a prize!

If we'd all walked away as soon as the Bin Laden raid was done, no one would've said a thing, and we would've completely controlled the "revenge" narrative and history would paint it as a very expensive, and very overblown success story.

But lemme tell you - the 'mission creep' of Afghanistan rivals any 'mission creep' that anyone ever complained about in the 2000 elections when referring to Somalia or the Balkans.

I'd love to hear Airborne Rifles' opinions on the topic, but I guess he's a bit pre-occupied these days :)

[LongBlade]

I have never given much thought to how a real-world conflict my resemble a zombie game, but Brant's comment about Black Hawk Down rings true.

In my reading of history, everyone has something of value they want to protect. Finding that leverage point and focusing on it until your enemy quits is pretty much the conduct of war.

During WWII, it required we turn the Axis nations into a pile of rocks. In Afghanistan, the country never evolved beyond a pile of rocks. So we need to find something else of value to use as a leverage point to convince the bad guys that we're not worth fighting.

I'm not sure what that might be, but it seems to me that identifying those objectives is the piece that is missing in being able to find success during this conflict.

[Longdan]

Somebody had the idea of "hearts and minds" a while back.  For the record the concept predated
the Viet Nam conflict.  If you are not interested in finding out what they want and providing it better
than the current regime..... do not go there.  Just kill them from afar if you wish or if it pleases you.
They will not start to like you and quit fighting.  What I find really sad is that so many people try
so hard to meet the hearts and minds ideal and are thwarted by their own organisations and the general
apathy that seems to leak in from above or from the electorate.  Killing half of them and giving the
surviving half a candy bar does not make a 50/50 deal.  This idea of shooting democracy and good government
into foreigners doesn't work very well.  They get all resentful and pissy.  The whole Afghanistan thing was sold
as one concept (look at how many who came to participate had sidestepped Iraq) and turned into just another
war against people who did not want us in their country.  The soldiers from the base here were getting on planes
to go there in the end of 2001 and a goodly number of them got killed including some friends.  They are not
all that glad they went seeing the result.

[DicedT]

Brant nailed it better than I did!

Mike

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

What was our real war goal in Afghanistan?

dingdingdingdingdingdingding

give that man a prize!

If we'd all walked away as soon as the Bin Laden raid was done, no one would've said a thing, and we would've completely controlled the "revenge" narrative and history would paint it as a very expensive, and very overblown success story.

But lemme tell you - the 'mission creep' of Afghanistan rivals any 'mission creep' that anyone ever complained about in the 2000 elections when referring to Somalia or the Balkans.

I'd love to hear Airborne Rifles' opinions on the topic, but I guess he's a bit pre-occupied these days :)

It doesn't matter if the mission creep came from politicians, generals or business activists wanting new markets. The 'revenge narrative' would only hold if it was only Afghanistan. As soon as Iraq was thrown in it was clear to the whole world it was an opportunity for 'mission creep'.

The underlying goal of the mission creep is the glory of those that advance it, whichever of the 3 groups above had a part. They see their opportunity to change the world by force. It's a fool's life story. They will beat their head against this never understanding that the chance of success this way is tiny.

Is Iraq or Afghanistan more secular now than before? Are the people going about normal lives or are they joining combat camps?

It will be successful civilian business that changes the region to be less hostile, not military force.

[LongBlade]

Is Iraq or Afghanistan more secular now than before? Are the people going about normal lives or are they joining combat camps?

I think you misunderstand the motive behind Iraq War II.

It was sold as Saddam having WMD. Which he did.

But there were other important reasons. Most importantly, it is no longer possible for the world's attention to turn away and Saddam resume acquiring more WMD.

Also, he no longer is threatening his neighbors with hostile intent.

Also, the next time the UN passes a couple dozen resolutions that say, "Don't do that," the target of said resolutions may look back and realize that use of force may follow if the resolutions are ignored.

The fact that the war wasn't universally popular nor that it hasn't delivered a utopia in Iraq doesn't mean there weren't good reasons for it, nor does it mean it was the wrong course of action. It does mean that folks can point out defects and complain it's not ideal, but we can't please everyone.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Does anyone buy that?

I seem to remember Saddam's military was badly smashed. Us jets were enforcing a no-fly zone over the country. Any military action would have been seen immediately. About the only thing he could do was block an Iranian attack.

I buy the narrative that it was about a chance to control Iraqi Oil.

[bayonetbrant]

There were plenty of bad reasons to invade Iraq

There were a handful of compelling good reasons to invade Iraq

But I was never convinced of a necessary reason to invade Iraq

That said, once we were there, I was much less concerned with trying to undo something by arguing about justifications than I was interested in discussing the 'success criteria' needed to bring our boys home without handicapping ourselves on the geopolitical front for the next 50 years.

[Longdan]

Did he have usable WMD?  It was one big Red Herring IMHO and sold for reasons other than those it was painted with.
Why were so many nations quite willing to assist in Afghanistan and took a powder on Iraq?  What about the other
tons of conveniently forgotten outright BS?  Nobody had a plan about what to do with the place once they had gone
in with guns blazing and declared victory.  That is just stupid and dishonest.  IMO.

[bayonetbrant]

Did he have usable WMD?  It was one big Red Herring IMHO and sold for reasons other than those it was painted with.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/6/29/163659.shtml

Nobody had a plan about what to do with the place once they had gone in with guns blazing and declared victory.  That is just stupid and dishonest.

it was more the former than the latter

they were honest about not having one