Eador: Genesis Reviews Continue to Roll In

[Longdan]

Jarhead, that picture of Harry Dean Stanton on your sig,  does that represent your inner child?
Anyway, on topic, I bought Eador because it was less than a six pack on GOG and maybe I shall play it some day.
I never really know if something will appeal to me until I have played it a bit.  I have been surprised pleasantly
and bitterly disappointed in equal measure.  The only real protection is a good review from a person
who you know likes what you like.  I bought SOTS2 just based on JH's enthusiasm but haven't played yet.
Something was conveyed in his comments that made me want to look.

[FarAway Sooner]

At least explain why the battle system still works, rather than just posting that in your opinion, my opinion, is incorrect.  Sell the game to those of us on the fence.

Judging from your icon, Jarhead, aren't you behind the fence rather than on it?  :)

Just kidding.  I didn't mean to come across as attacking your original post, I'm just not sure I understood it.  If you were OK with the combat from HoMM or King's Bounty, the basic mechanisms are there.  If you didn't like those, you'll likely have the same reaction.  From a "realism" standoint, there's no reason not to assume that the units are smallish squads rather than individual soldiers--the game is rather vague on that point.

The basic combat mechanisms are similar to Heroes or King's Bounty, but they've added a few wrinkles which make it more interesting.  They tend to be very simple in concept, but complicated in the way that they interact with each other and the overall game.  Here are a few things I liked more than what you get in the HoMM/King's Bount series:

1) Fatigue is a trait that gets used up in battle (or replenished), depending on what you do.  It becomes a real factor in longer battles, especially if you're in terrain that burns more of it (e.g., it costs 2 Fatigue points to move through a swamp or up a hillside).  Once fatigue gets below a certain level, combat abilities (Attack, Counterattack, & Defense) start to deteriorate.  So you can't just send out one uber-unit and plan to kill everything.  It's a small tweak, but it makes for a real evaluation of trade-offs.

2) As units get injured, their combat abilities decline.  So you have to be much more planful about how you sequence attacks and who attacks whom.

3) As units get XP, they level up, giving them incremental abilities.  The abilities aren't huge for any one level, but they add up over time.  This way, you get to refine the way a basic unit is used, similar to Civ or Warlock.  In addition, units can also get certain medals for extroardinary feats in combat (e.g., a unit that soaks up numerous attacks and comes within a few HP of dying earns a "Commendation of Valor" award that gives him extra HP, extra Defense, but also makes his upkeep cost a little more).  The medals provide a big boost.  Losing a Level 6 Pikeman who also has a Commendation of Valor can produce a genuine howl of anguish when it happens.

4) Because of limitations in your own hero's leadership skills and limitations in what you can build in your castle, you can't hire every type of unit available in the game.  This makes for tough trade-off choices.  Do I go for the cheaper missile unit for use in the early game, knowing that a better missile unit will be available in another 5 or 10 turns if I just wait, and I'll waste one of my precious "unit type" slots if I want both?

5) Units heal after battle, but fairly slowly (different units and structures in the provinces also affect this).  So you can't just cruise through the whole map in a blitzkrieg with one killer stack.  You can attack with partly-healed units in your army, but they're at more risk to perish, and if they're higher-level to begin with, that can be a hard choice.

6) Terrain matters, and while every province has a predominant terrain type, there's a smattering of terrain on most maps (e.g., even a Plains provice might have a hilltop or two, and maybe a pond).  Terrain can require more Fatigue or Movement Points to move through, and it can provide certain combat bonuses or penalties to all units (e.g., Forests provide extra Missile Defense while attacking from atop a Hilltop gives you an Attack/Counterattack bonus).  But terrain also provides specific bonuses to specific units (e.g., Lizardmen not only don't get a Defense penalty in Swamps, they get a Defense bonus), and those bonuses sometimes get adjusted by how a unit levels up.

What I like most about the combats is that players face a lot of hard trade-off choices.  Even if I know I can kill an enemy unit, do I kill him with the unit that kills him most efficiently, or do I kill him with the unit that I'm really trying to level up?  And how many wounds will I likely take if I pursue either course, because HP don't grow on trees!

That's honestly what I like most about the game.  The campaign for Eador: Genesis is very slow-moving, but I've been having so much fun playing the individual Shards (i.e., scenarios) that I didn't mind it much.  I've heard that campaign play in the new game will be sped up, which will make it more accessible to the masses even if it does make it a tad bit easier.

I've also had my hands full winning at the "Beginner" level, and there are two more difficulty levels above that before the AI actually starts to get statistical bonuses (in terms of resource production or unit capabiliites), which is another aspect of the strategic challenge that I like.  As near as I can tell, the AI doesn't cheat.

[Jarhead0331]

^Thank you!

[FarAway Sooner]

Happy to oblige.

One more review just popped up.  I think the sheer volume of reviews popping up for a title retailing for $5 - $10 on GoG is mute testimony to the cult following this game is picking up.

The review is glowing in many respects but turns very lukewarm at the end.  The author lodges complaints that the AI cheats in terms of resource bonuses, which I've seen flat-out denied by the developers on the English-language forums.  I suspect it's a case of the AI being much better at some things than the player, but there's not nearly enough English-language expertise in the game out there to validate or refute that claim.

Along with a lack of transparency into the engine, the difficulty level is the other common complaint with that game.  I suspect that's less of a deterrent to folks on this board than to some, but there's no denying that one or two missteps can severely cripple you for a scenario.

I'll excerpt a section where the reviewer talks exclusively about the combat.

http://scientificgamer.com/thoughts-eador-genesis/

"The heroes and tactical combat are the best bits of Eador. It looks deceptively simple; battles are played out over a small 8×8 grid of hexes, which doesn't seem to allow much room for strategy or tactics. Indeed, with an appropriately upgraded and equipped hero it's possible to start shooting the enemy army full of arrows from the very first turn of combat, and there are times when the battlefield feels positively claustrophobic. However, chess also uses an 8×8 grid whilst managing to avoid accusations of being simple or shallow, and so does Eador.... 

Yes, just because Eador is an unusually player-friendly brand of HoMM-alike doesn't mean that it won't take every opportunity it can to kick you in the nads. Pleasingly much of its difficulty lies in its tactical AI, which is exceedingly competent and probably just as good as a decent human player would be in the same situation; it makes full use of abilities and magic to mash your heroes into a bloody pulp. It doesn't seem to have been crippled on lower difficulty settings either, which can make Beginner seem like a remarkably harsh experience given what we're used to from other strategy games. "

[Nefaro]

I just hope the sequel compares with the first, and preferably excels it in some ways.  But it sounds like the guy has really been wrestling with a few problems in this late beta stage.  The mention of AI issues has scared me, as that seems to be something developers regularly refuse to update once the game's released.  Considering we're still getting additional patches for the original, perhaps I won't have to wonder so much.

[airboy]

How did I miss Eador on www.gog.com????

How does the gog version play?  Is it still fun?

Or better yet - given my current workload don't tell me.

[Longdan]

Airboy for that price you could play it and review it for us.
You write so much better than I do.

[FarAway Sooner]

The Eador: Genesisinterface is old-fashioned, but surprisingly robust and right-clicking provides a reasonable amount of useful info on the Help screens.  However, the game is VERY deep, and the English-language documentation is... lacking.  If you have the time to unwrap it and get past the initial learning curve, the tactical play is VERY enjoyable.

They'd just be well-served by getting some better explanation of some of the gameplay mechanics out there where they're more accessible.  I know Fatigue starts to affect my unit negatively after it drops below 5, but what's the math?  What role does Alignment play, and what affects it?  (e.g., casting lots of Summon Undead spells makes me more evil, but does hiring a Healer make me more good?)

The best thing I can compare it to was my experience when I first purchased Dominions 2 6 or 7 years ago.  It's a very deep game and the interface is a bit hit-and-miss.  A better glimpse under the hood would have been appreciated, but the game play was still very immersive.

[FlickJax]

Guys I have not worked out how to use the eggs you pick up, can anyone enlighten me please :)

[Martok]

At least explain why the battle system still works, rather than just posting that in your opinion, my opinion, is incorrect.  Sell the game to those of us on the fence.

Judging from your icon, Jarhead, aren't you behind the fence rather than on it?  :)

Just kidding.  I didn't mean to come across as attacking your original post, I'm just not sure I understood it.  If you were OK with the combat from HoMM or King's Bounty, the basic mechanisms are there.  If you didn't like those, you'll likely have the same reaction.  From a "realism" standoint, there's no reason not to assume that the units are smallish squads rather than individual soldiers--the game is rather vague on that point.

The basic combat mechanisms are similar to Heroes or King's Bounty, but they've added a few wrinkles which make it more interesting.  They tend to be very simple in concept, but complicated in the way that they interact with each other and the overall game.  Here are a few things I liked more than what you get in the HoMM/King's Bount series:

1) Fatigue is a trait that gets used up in battle (or replenished), depending on what you do.  It becomes a real factor in longer battles, especially if you're in terrain that burns more of it (e.g., it costs 2 Fatigue points to move through a swamp or up a hillside).  Once fatigue gets below a certain level, combat abilities (Attack, Counterattack, & Defense) start to deteriorate.  So you can't just send out one uber-unit and plan to kill everything.  It's a small tweak, but it makes for a real evaluation of trade-offs.

2) As units get injured, their combat abilities decline.  So you have to be much more planful about how you sequence attacks and who attacks whom.

3) As units get XP, they level up, giving them incremental abilities.  The abilities aren't huge for any one level, but they add up over time.  This way, you get to refine the way a basic unit is used, similar to Civ or Warlock.  In addition, units can also get certain medals for extroardinary feats in combat (e.g., a unit that soaks up numerous attacks and comes within a few HP of dying earns a "Commendation of Valor" award that gives him extra HP, extra Defense, but also makes his upkeep cost a little more).  The medals provide a big boost.  Losing a Level 6 Pikeman who also has a Commendation of Valor can produce a genuine howl of anguish when it happens.

4) Because of limitations in your own hero's leadership skills and limitations in what you can build in your castle, you can't hire every type of unit available in the game.  This makes for tough trade-off choices.  Do I go for the cheaper missile unit for use in the early game, knowing that a better missile unit will be available in another 5 or 10 turns if I just wait, and I'll waste one of my precious "unit type" slots if I want both?

5) Units heal after battle, but fairly slowly (different units and structures in the provinces also affect this).  So you can't just cruise through the whole map in a blitzkrieg with one killer stack.  You can attack with partly-healed units in your army, but they're at more risk to perish, and if they're higher-level to begin with, that can be a hard choice.

6) Terrain matters, and while every province has a predominant terrain type, there's a smattering of terrain on most maps (e.g., even a Plains provice might have a hilltop or two, and maybe a pond).  Terrain can require more Fatigue or Movement Points to move through, and it can provide certain combat bonuses or penalties to all units (e.g., Forests provide extra Missile Defense while attacking from atop a Hilltop gives you an Attack/Counterattack bonus).  But terrain also provides specific bonuses to specific units (e.g., Lizardmen not only don't get a Defense penalty in Swamps, they get a Defense bonus), and those bonuses sometimes get adjusted by how a unit levels up.

What I like most about the combats is that players face a lot of hard trade-off choices.  Even if I know I can kill an enemy unit, do I kill him with the unit that kills him most efficiently, or do I kill him with the unit that I'm really trying to level up?  And how many wounds will I likely take if I pursue either course, because HP don't grow on trees!

That's honestly what I like most about the game.  The campaign for Eador: Genesis is very slow-moving, but I've been having so much fun playing the individual Shards (i.e., scenarios) that I didn't mind it much.  I've heard that campaign play in the new game will be sped up, which will make it more accessible to the masses even if it does make it a tad bit easier.

I've also had my hands full winning at the "Beginner" level, and there are two more difficulty levels above that before the AI actually starts to get statistical bonuses (in terms of resource production or unit capabiliites), which is another aspect of the strategic challenge that I like.  As near as I can tell, the AI doesn't cheat.

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write all that up, FarAwaySooner!  It sounds very cool.  :) 

[airboy]

I did some minor digging around on the web.  I can't find a strategy guide.  The game is very complicated, yet has a weak manual.  I found a couple of building trees - but again little in the way of explanation.

Despite all of the good things, I think I will give this a pass.  I lack the time to decipher a complex strategy game.

[tgb]

I did some minor digging around on the web.  I can't find a strategy guide.  The game is very complicated, yet has a weak manual.  I found a couple of building trees - but again little in the way of explanation.

Despite all of the good things, I think I will give this a pass.  I lack the time to decipher a complex strategy game.

Just wait a couple of months for the modernized version.  I'm sure the documentation will be better.

[FarAway Sooner]

Yup.  The modernized version is basically the exact same gameplay (down to units having similar stats), but much prettier graphics, a more modern UI, a bit more variety of features, and (reportedly) streamlined campaign play.  Hopefully the documentation will be better, too.

Eador: Genesis is a total stealth offer.  I have a suspicion that the devs just figured translating it into English and getting it out there might help to drum up interest for Masters of the Broken World.  It's only generating a cult following, but I've been surprised how quickly it's taken off, given that the English-language version of the game was just released 7 weeks ago.

However, Airboy, per your post, if your gaming time is scarce and you don't enjoy puzzling out gameplay mechanics yourself, this is definitely a title to avoid.  As noted, the sequel should have better documentation.

Given how little they're changing from the original, I'm not sure how much they could screw up.  But I'm sure they might find ways to do it.  Here's hoping they won't... 

[FlickJax]

Guys I have not worked out how to use the eggs you pick up, can anyone enlighten me please :)

Anyone help here?

[Greybriar]

Guys I have not worked out how to use the eggs you pick up, can anyone enlighten me please :)

Anyone help here?

Sell them to a vendor? I have a few taking up space I'd like to know what to do with.