Tease.....

[jomni]

AI is the biggest problem for most board game conversions. Plus some rules do not translate well to code since they were originally designed for a real human minds to process and are sometimes vague and arbitrary. 

Games designed for PC from ground up would make a more better PC game since the game rules are catered to what the developer is capable of coding.

[JasonPratt]

But when PC conversions try to be faithful to the boardgame rules...that is when the PC version seems to be forced; Empire in Arms, Conflict of Heroes, WWI, Montjoie! and AH's old Wooden Ships and Iron Men come to mind.

My main problem with Montjoie! was that it gave my computer a virus...  >:( :'( :P

[JudgeDredd]

I actually think Conflict of Heroes was transformed from a game to a bloody good game when they implemented the board game graphics and rules. Still - though - board games always lose something in translation.

I expect this is going to be a great game - but looking at the board game, it's possible the interface could be "clunky" and not really work on a computer game where a board game deals with it fine. One thing that comes to mind is the movement of the AI....how do you program the AI to know the user does not want to initiate Op Fire? You could use a lengthy pause from the AI...but that would get tiresome. You could also implement a popup asking the user - but that too could be tiresome.

The thing is, without inspecting the board - it's difficult to decide if you want to Op Fire - you want to see what else you could use your troops for - so that is a difficult thing to implement.

I'd like to hear from Barthheart actually on how that is implemented.

As for multi-storey buildings - I'm fine with them gone and wish they were so in the board game - because it's another complex level of rule set to deal with from leader activation to dropping/picking up weapons to movement and identifying who is on what level...and then there's LoS! I might even just disregard the multi-level buildings in the board game until I become more familiar with the other rules (one of the reasons I am playing the Carentan scenario is because of the single level buildings

I hope this is good - but I do think if there were a board game out at the same time - I'd go for the board game - given I am getting to know the mechanics.

I am very glad though that they have stayed faithful to the board game look. I think there's something very special about some board game graphics...though I understand they're not everyone's cup of tea and might limit sales.

[Barthheart]

...
One thing that comes to mind is the movement of the AI....how do you program the AI to know the user does not want to initiate Op Fire? You could use a lengthy pause from the AI...but that would get tiresome. You could also implement a popup asking the user - but that too could be tiresome.

The thing is, without inspecting the board - it's difficult to decide if you want to Op Fire - you want to see what else you could use your troops for - so that is a difficult thing to implement.

I'd like to hear from Barthheart actually on how that is implemented.
...

OP fire, I think, is handled very well. To me it's just like playing another person. The AI will move a unit until it comes into LoS of one of your units then the game pauses. You are shown a possible Op Fire opportunity with a line drawn from you unit to the target. If you want to take the shot you push the Fire button, if not push the Pass button. You can scroll the map around to look at the situation for as long as you like until you deside.

If there are more than one of your units that can Op Fire, you can use the nxet/prev buttons to change the firing hex and see what that effect will have on your situation.

If you have more than one unit is a hex that can Op fire you can fire with them all or deselect any number and fire.

It really does feel like playing another person when you say "Stop moving I might want to Op Fire"... "Nah... go on moving" or "Right, this squad in this hex will fire."
It flows pretty well.

[Richie61]

I think that the computer version is as good as my board games from the LnL Band of Heroes titles. I have dusted them off and I am playing them with my boys.
I have been really impressed with the state of the beta and what the future of this game holds!

[GJK]

You are shown a possible Op Fire opportunity with a line drawn from you unit to the target. If you want to take the shot you push the Fire button, if not push the Pass button.

Not liking this.  I'm sure that it's the same way in LnL boardgame as it is in ASL, but one of the strong components of game play; what makes a good ASL player, is the ability to read the situation and respond.  Having the computer POINT OUT the solution to you is a spoiler and I hope that it is something that can be toggled on/off.  Allow me to respond with Op Fire, but don't SHOW ME the possible shots that I have...I need to be a good enough player to spot those opportunities.  That is one reason why this may fail, in my book - if you can't easily see the entire map on the screen at once without the units being 2px x 2px in size as the computer is making its moves, then it will be very difficult to formulate a plan for handling defensive fire (Op Fire I guess it's called in LnL).  There's many, many, many times in ASL to where I may not want to defensive fire with one unit while doing so with another that is on the other end of my lane of fire.  I need to be able to see all of that however when playing and I'm afraid that the computer version will be very centered on just the moving piece.  I don't know - maybe you can zoom in/out while the PC is moving?  Still, this is one of the things that frustrates me when playing ASL on VASL with larger maps.  You just miss things that you wouldn't otherwise if the boardgame was set up on a table.  Then again, from the scenarios that I've seen from BoH, the maps look really small so maybe that's not an issue.  In ASL, especially in HASL (HIstorical ASL), the maps can be fairly large.

You can scroll the map around to look at the situation for as long as you like until you deside.

The computer won't mind but I know when playing ASL you feel that tension of "come on, it's reaction fire - not chess - make your move!".  That will be another element missing from the computer game.

If there are more than one of your units that can Op Fire, you can use the nxet/prev buttons to change the firing hex and see what that effect will have on your situation.

Another advantage that the computer will give players that the boardgame doesn't give you.  It's something else that the computer will calculate for you; you can be a lax/lazy player and just have the computer show you the plusses and minuses of your actions.  No need to calculate any of that in your head!  I'm being sarcastic obviously... I think that's yet another HUGE element that ruin the effect of playing the boardgame but on a computer.  That's exactly why I've gone from playing only PC games to now mostly playing board wargames.  I LIKE having to add up and compute the odds manually.  I LIKE having to decide to shoot or not; and do I have a line of sight or not?  Dunno, if I fire and it hits the building, I'll know then.  Not when the computer shows me that I have a shot and I just decide "shoot or no shoot".  I'm ranting but this is why I think ASL would not translate good as a computer game with AI either. 

The biggest element lost however will be two people sitting together at a table, picking up the counters, rolling the dice, bluffing, snarling, laughing, sighing....

[tgb]

GJK -

Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it.  I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.

It sounds like this game just won't be for you.

[GJK]

Yeah, I don't know.  I'm sure that I'll pick it up however or at least try the demo if there is one.  I think that I've gone full circle in my wargaming.  I, like so many of us, started out on boardgames in our teens and of course everything there you have to do manually.  Then the PC evolution hit and it was like "cool, it figures out my combat odds for me and will move my pieces to where I say to go and even control some units that I don't want to deal with!".  And then I felt like I was getting out of touch in my gaming, at least in the hex and counter games.  It just seemed like there was a lot less pondering, a lot less "edge of the seat" decision making.  I dunno.  Maybe it's just a symptom of mid-life crisis.  I think I'll go buy some skinny jeans and hop into my convertable Porsche and cruise the blvd tonight instead of sitting home wargaming.....  :)

[GJK]

GJK -

Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it.  I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.

It sounds like this game just won't be for you.

That brings up a question for me on LnL rules; do you get free LOS checks in the game?  I know in ASL, if you decide to check a close LOS in defensive fire, you have to take the shot whether the LOS is obstructed or not (and there's a chance that a MG can Malf. if you do so).

[Barthheart]

GJK -

Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it.  I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.

It sounds like this game just won't be for you.

That brings up a question for me on LnL rules; do you get free LOS checks in the game?  I know in ASL, if you decide to check a close LOS in defensive fire, you have to take the shot whether the LOS is obstructed or not (and there's a chance that a MG can Malf. if you do so).

Yes, in LnL you can check LoS at any time for free.
You are also free to inspect any stack on the board at any time... as long as your opponent isn't bigger than you... that last part is actually in the rules.  ;)

I agree with you Gary that playing the against an AI or even another person across a PC will never replace the fun of playing someone face to face. There is nothing like groaning or cheering to throw your opponent off, laughing at impossible shots that are made etc. But I don't see PC games as replacing that. I see them as a suppliment to my dead tree play.

The way that LnL plays on the PC, I still feel the tension of what to do next.... do I move these guys the shortest path across the open street and possibly get mowed down or do I take the long covered route that will delay the rest of my plans and possible cost me the game.... do I take the op fire shot or hold for a more important target... will there be a more important target?

I enjoy these games on the PC when I don't have the time to do the setup or crunch the numbers and just want to plan and think and blast away. When I have the time I really enjoy taking the cardboard out and setting up the pieces and rolling the dice. Just two different kinds of fun.  8)

[Rayfer]

GJK -

Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it.  I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.

It sounds like this game just won't be for you.

That brings up a question for me on LnL rules; do you get free LOS checks in the game?  I know in ASL, if you decide to check a close LOS in defensive fire, you have to take the shot whether the LOS is obstructed or not (and there's a chance that a MG can Malf. if you do so).

I agree completely with the first part...Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it.  I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity. but not the second.  I never understood the ASL rule that you had to fire after making a line of sight check even it you found you had none.  Why would I fire if I looked across a field and determined that I couldn't see what it is I was considering firing at.  Isn't that the reason why you look....to see that you do have a line of sight?  I've never been in the military and combat so maybe I just don't understand it well enough.  Help me to get it.

[GJK]

I agree completely with the first part...Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it.  I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity. but not the second.  I never understood the ASL rule that you had to fire after making a line of sight check even it you found you had none.  Why would I fire if I looked across a field and determined that I couldn't see what it is I was considering firing at.  Isn't that the reason why you look....to see that you do have a line of sight?  I've never been in the military and combat so maybe I just don't understand it well enough.  Help me to get it.

Machinegunner: "I thought I saw some men running across that street so I shot".  "Must of only been shadows".  "I thought that I heard something across the street in that building".  Those are just some of the explanations for that rule if you ask an ASL player about it.

[Ubercat]

What constitutes checking an LOS in ASL? Putting a ruler to the map and testing center to center? Can you simply line up the shooter with a potential target with your eyes and take a guess first?

[GJK]

What constitutes checking an LOS in ASL? Putting a ruler to the map and testing center to center? Can you simply line up the shooter with a potential target with your eyes and take a guess first?

People usually use thread or dental floss or kite string.  In ASL it works like this:  your opponent is in his Movement Phase.  As he moves squad/stack from hex to hex, you're watching closely and if you *think* that you have a shot and want to take it, you do.  By "think" I mean if you eye-ball it and think it's clear then take the shot if you want.  If you pause the move and say "nah, nevermind, I don't think that I have LOS", then no harm-no foul and the opponent continues on with his/her (?) move.  If they are moving and you interrupt and say, "I'm going to snap that line" and you break out the thread and measure it - you are committed to the shot whether or not there is a LOS.  If there is no LOS AND you have support weapons (SW) firing (machineguns usually), you still roll for the attack but no results will impact the moving units BUT you could roll and break your SW (ran out of bullets, overheated, freakin' melted or just plain jammed).  I think it's a cool aspect of ASL and having free LOS checks would freak me out in LnL!  :o

[Nefaro]

Is that thing with the little girl needing rescue a common occurrence? It seems a bit contrived and would actually make more sense if it happened when playing the Russian side, since she is most likely a Russian child. (No offense to brave Lt Wurtz and his men intended  ;)).

Nazi-centricity in WW2 games is an endemic problem.  Do your part to curb such behavior!  ;)

..because Germany brought a bunch of children with them to Stalingrad?  Or were they in the business of rescuing Soviet civilians?  ::)