Distant Worlds: Shadows (Released)

[JudgeDredd]

well - having gotten the first basic tutorial under my belt - I'm an expert obviously.  :P

I do hope it gets fixed - and I totally understand, given the parameters for research and how varied they are, how this could come about. It souns like a very hard thing to get the AI to do though - given all the variables involved with all the different ship designs.

[Kushan]

I think I may be having a problem with the non-pirate AI only researching gravity weapons and none of the other weapon types. Granted I've only played 1 pre-warp game long enough to get into a war, and 1 classic age to the same point, and that is out of 3-4 total games I've started since shadows. So out I don't want to call it a bug with only 2 real games, but it does seem like non-pirates are using a lot of gravity weapons. Going to start a another classic age game tonight as a test.

I would actually like to see more restrictions on races not being able to research certain weapons types. For instance maybe humans couldn't research gravity weapons, or Zenox couldn't research rails guns. I've long been of the opinion that there are almost to many weapon types. The AI was already having trouble with designing to the ones we had. I don't think another weapon class needed to be added with shadows. Probably the only one who feels that way, so I'm just going to wait until the modder expansion where we will hopefully be able to modify the tech tree.


@Yskonyn

Would it be feasible to add another few categories under the "Research and Design" section of empire policy screen? Maybe add something like "Engines - fuel efficiency" , "Engines - speed" , etc.? Looks like there is a category for almost everything but engines. and having different categories of engines would allow for some better fine tuning on the players part.

[son_of_montfort]

I think I am going to fix this a simple way - I am going to stop being a wiener and design my own warships. The beauty of the DW system is that you can literally build any ship from the ground up, so having the AI design ships for me seems to be a complete waste of such an open system.

Kushan, I have seen other empires using different types of weapons. They do like gravitic weapons, but so do I, given that they bypass armor and shields. Last night, one of the AI civs was using this wave technology weapon that I had not seen before. I'll have to investigate exactly what that was!

I do sort of agree that there are too many weapon types. Having two varieties of phasers, for example, seems overkill - why not have a phaser that has better range or less loss over distance and then have a pulse laser that has shorter range but higher firing speed (instead of having a phaser that has longer range and less damage and a phaser with shorter range and higher damage AND a pulse laser with similar variants)?

I'm going to start another game now and wean myself off the AI ship design.

[Nefaro]

I think I am going to fix this a simple way - I am going to stop being a wiener and design my own warships. The beauty of the DW system is that you can literally build any ship from the ground up, so having the AI design ships for me seems to be a complete waste of such an open system.

Kushan, I have seen other empires using different types of weapons. They do like gravitic weapons, but so do I, given that they bypass armor and shields. Last night, one of the AI civs was using this wave technology weapon that I had not seen before. I'll have to investigate exactly what that was!

Gravitics have that excellent benefit, but they're also very short-ranged.  There's also some allusion to having a lower hit chance against large targets, in it's description.  Range can definitely be a win/lose factor, too.  You can adjust by increasing thruster modules to speed up your ships and load up heavier on shields and/or armor in the hope that you don't explode before getting into range, of course.  All part of the ship design fun.

I do sort of agree that there are too many weapon types. Having two varieties of phasers, for example, seems overkill - why not have a phaser that has better range or less loss over distance and then have a pulse laser that has shorter range but higher firing speed (instead of having a phaser that has longer range and less damage and a phaser with shorter range and higher damage AND a pulse laser with similar variants)?

I'm going to start another game now and wean myself off the AI ship design.

I'm pretty sure that there are just such trade-offs between the different types of weapons/engines/etc.  For instance, the three early warp drive options are split between how quickly they can enter warp and how fast they actually go during warp.  Similarly, weapons often vary in range, damage, rate of fire, energy use, damage falloff, mount mass, etc.  The lasers or phasers (or whatnot) should have some small differences in stats.

[Yskonyn]

Yes I can confirm that the given weapon types all have advantages and disavantages.
There is no such thing as 'another laser, just for the sake of another laser'. But the variables are not always readily available in their description. ;) Part of the fun is finding out what exactly is the benefit of this vs that. At least that (partly) the intention.

@Kushan; the problem is that the policy files are a bit of an obscure thing at the moment. Codeforce is not very clear in what they do and how they could be altered.

[Kushan]

@Kushan; the problem is that the policy files are a bit of an obscure thing at the moment. Codeforce is not very clear in what they do and how they could be altered.

Was actually hoping maybe Matrix/Code Force could add these. Right now there is no engine category at all under the empire policy at all, at least not from what I can see.

[Yskonyn]

@Kushan; the problem is that the policy files are a bit of an obscure thing at the moment. Codeforce is not very clear in what they do and how they could be altered.

Was actually hoping maybe Matrix/Code Force could add these. Right now there is no engine category at all under the empire policy at all, at least not from what I can see.

Well there is even *some* doubt that these are even used at all. But that will be cleared up soon.

[Yskonyn]

SoM, one thing I would like to know about the AI issue you have brought up above;

Did you mean that AFTER you have made a design with Graviton beams / Ion Cannons and all the other goodies the AI actually wants to change YOUR designs back into Blasters and Torpedo Mk 2 designs?

[mikeck]

How does the AI do with its own ships?? Meaning for the AI races...Same problem?

[son_of_montfort]

SoM, one thing I would like to know about the AI issue you have brought up above;

Did you mean that AFTER you have made a design with Graviton beams / Ion Cannons and all the other goodies the AI actually wants to change YOUR designs back into Blasters and Torpedo Mk 2 designs?

Yessir. If I leave full automation on, then I update a design (let's call it Kirk MK II) to have gravitic beams and AOE weapons. When I get a retrofit/upgrade dialog and accept it, the computer will automatically design a Kirk II or Kirk MK III (usually Kirk II, oddly enough) and it will be back to Maxos blasters and Epsilon Torps. Very irritating.

But I just now started a new game and I turned off the automation of Destroyers, Frigates, and Cruisers (I figure that it can do Carriers and Troop Carriers). I'm finding the self-designing to be manageable and fun, so it should not be a problem. Incremental upgrades are not necessary all of the time anyway.

[panzerde]

Yessir. If I leave full automation on, then I update a design (let's call it Kirk MK II) to have gravitic beams and AOE weapons. When I get a retrofit/upgrade dialog and accept it, the computer will automatically design a Kirk II or Kirk MK III (usually Kirk II, oddly enough) and it will be back to Maxos blasters and Epsilon Torps. Very irritating.

But I just now started a new game and I turned off the automation of Destroyers, Frigates, and Cruisers (I figure that it can do Carriers and Troop Carriers). I'm finding the self-designing to be manageable and fun, so it should not be a problem. Incremental upgrades are not necessary all of the time anyway.

Yes, this has been a problem since they introduced the design automation.  Believe it or not things have improved with this over several patches, though the core issue still exists.  The established workaround is to not automate upgrades of any ships you don't want that to happen with, which is actually the origin of the check boxes in the empire policy screen of which ships to not automate design for, IIRC.

I generally handle design of state ships and bases and for the most part allow the AI to handle the civilian sector.  From an immersion perspective, it always seemed more natural to me that the civilian ships would lag a bit and not have the best technology, anyway.

[Kushan]

v1.9.0.2 Patch has been released.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3332321

Full Change List for 1.9.0.2 from 1.9.0.1:

CRASH FIXES
- fixed crash when start new prewarp game with very few pirates
- fixed crash when last ship in fleet is destroyed while fleet selected, and then click next fleet button
- fixed various other crashes

GENERAL BUG FIXES
- fixed bug where private sector ships would sometimes stop working
- Improved bug (work in progress) where Build Order screen has zero values for ship construction amounts
- fixed bug where construction ship repairing a damaged ship at a planet would separate from damaged ship being repaired
- pirate faction manually scrapping ships and bases now properly earns looting income
- ensure money obtained as loot from raid is never negative

PIRATES, CONTROLLED COLONIES, FACILITIES AND RAIDS
- fixed bug where sometimes could not build Criminal Network except via advisor suggestion
- pirate facilities are now much less likely to be destroyed in raids
- destroying pirate facilities at colonies of normal empires is now harder, as more pirate raider troops are generated to defend pirate bases at colony. Pirates also receive a combat bonus when defending their controlled colony with a Pirate Base or Fortress
- enemy raids against colonies with pirate facilities will usually only damage the facilities instead of completely destroying them
- pirate control level at colonies now does not drop below thresholds when have pirate base or fortress present (50% or 100%), even when planet population passes cap where pirate control would normally decrease
- pirate military ships do not raid own controlled colonies when control level is above 50%
- raids against controlled colonies where you have own pirate facilities will not destroy these facilities
- pirate factions will now defend against enemy raids on their controlled colonies with pirate facilities
- pirate facilities are now faster to build at controlled colonies
- colony corruption level is now higher when pirates control the colony, and especially when pirate facilities are present

OTHER
- Gizurean alien race now has lower population growth from periodic race change event
- bombardment can now sometimes destroy planetary facilities
- construction ships no longer incorrectly load retrofit resource cargo when repairing damaged ships
- added message to player when foreign intelligence agent successfully sabotages construction at a base, colony or construction ship
- patrolling fleets now more likely to engage enemy targets in same system
- colony ships now always check whether colonization target is within range


Full Change List for 1.9.0.1 from 1.9.0.0:

CRASH FIXES
- fixed crash at game startup on some PCs (ManagementObject)
- fixed another rare crash

BUG FIXES
- fixed bug where could have two smuggling missions for a colony if both manually request and then also accept advisor suggestion
- fixed problem where certain races do not start with Resupply Ship when playing as pirate
- fixed colors of pirate bonuses (Empire Summary screen) so that penalties are red and bonuses are green

FREIGHTERS AND RESOURCES
- Construction Ships now also deliver initial retrofit resource cargo to bases they build, thus mining stations have retrofit resources without freighters needing to deliver them afterwards
- bases present at game startup (e.g. mining stations, etc) now have retrofit resource cargo presupplied
- now have less freighters built by private economy, especially in large empires
- now use less Carbon Fibre in components

USER INTERFACE
- Mining Station list in Empire Navigation Tool now shows resources mined instead of cargo
- remapped Screenshot key to "/" key on numeric keypad (instead of "0")
- added hotkey for opening/closing Ground Report screen ("[", open bracket)
- added pirate stats to *own empire* when selected in Diplomacy screen
- now properly adjust size of Ground Report screen so that edges are not off-screen when enlarged
- altered default values for scroll and zoom speed in Game Options so that zooming and scrolling is slower and smoother

OTHER
- AI is now properly sending advisor suggestion to player before sending a pirate fleet to carry out an assigned Defend mission - i.e. not overriding manual control of fleets

Regards,

- Erik

[Yskonyn]

To elaborate on the ship design issue brought up here. Elliot (the dev) has replied:

"Hi Yskonyn

I think the questions you have here relate to a misunderstanding of what the "Auto Upgrade Selected Designs" button in the Designs screen actually does.

The "Auto Upgrade" button does not follow the standard AI process for creating a new design. It does not reflect in any way what the AI does when it designs new ships.

The "Auto Upgrade" button is just a convenience function for the player. It simply makes a copy of the selected design, but with old components replaced with new ones.

Sometimes it is not clear which is the 'latest' component to use when replacing an old one, i.e. multiple components of the same type exist at the same tech level. In this case which new components are selected depends on a number of factors, including empire policy settings. In any case, the "Auto Upgrade" button is not intended to produce a final design, it simply makes it quicker and easier to upgrade designs - the player still has to finalize things to their liking.

And just to emphasize: what the "Auto Upgrade" button does is completely different to what the AI does when it makes new designs - these are totally different processes.

Maybe it's worth renaming the "Auto Upgrade" button to better reflect that it's just a shortcut to help the player manually upgrade designs more quickly.

Anyway, hopefully that helps explain how things are intended to work 

Elliot"

Still, this only applies to the 'assisted mode' where you press the 'Auto Upgrade Design' button to quickly upgrade a given ship design, but further design your ships manually.

Your issue is more about the complete automation, which I have brought up again in my reply over at the beta forum.
Consider it being looked into. ;)

[son_of_montfort]

Thanks, Ysk, because I do not use the Auto Upgrade button. In fact, the only way to make sure that the AI doesn't immediately try to redesign with undesirable elements is to use the Manually Update Design button. And yes, this happens even when I push no button at all. I am glad you are on top of this!

But switching to Manual Design for war/state ships seems the best solution and it is not too overwhelming.

[JudgeDredd]

My god!!

I am kicking myself stupid trying to get into this game.

So I started a game (read basic and advanced tutorial) and I'm going through the manual

I've switched everything over to Suggest and took auto ship design off - but things seem to be moving at such a frenetic pace!!

So everything is on "Suggest"....but why really? I get a little message saying the scientists suggest building a ship...no reason why. I get a message saying researchers want to research something - no reason why.

I had selected few pirates (or very few - can't remember) and I've already met them
I had selected 3 other AI determined factions in a 400 star system in a 10x10 system and selected them to start very far away. In my two hour game I've already met two of them and one of them has shown up in MY grid - AND I'm at war with them because they decided to blockade my ports and the other one requested I go to war with them for money...

Ships are flying off in all directions.
One fleet ran out of fuel because when you select a fleet it shows a dotted ring (I thought it was a bingo fuel ring (something I had asked for in the very first release of Distant Worlds)) and I sent the fleet off to the edge of that ring....only to see them running out of fuel and limping back (I realise that is my fault and my lack of understanding) - but WHERE is the range and bingo fuel indicators for your fleet? Are they there?

I don't know why I bothered switching auto ship design off - because things have been going at such a pace I've had no time to look at them. I have NO idea what I'm researching.

The ships I do build become available and bugger off on their own somewhere!

I was at war with the faction closest to me and I had a "suggestion" that I should attack something of theirs. I said ok. My 1st Fleet went off to do battle - and was annihilated  because the bases they had were plentiful! So - yeah - I should've investigated - but the enemy area was shrouded (undiscovered?) with lines through the system...should I have sent an Exploration vessel? Why did the AI suggest I do battle with something I had no chance to beat?

I don't know boys. I'm very jealous of you lot - because I'm pretty sure I'm just crap and there's a great game in their - but I'm really, really struggling to find it and I'm rueing wasting more of my time on it...though I know if I don't, I'll never get anywhere with it.

I'm going to give it the weekend to sink in - and that's all I've got!