Cthulhu Wars - Or how they are finally making my dream game...

[son_of_montfort]

I'm not sure I have much to say other than to post the Kickstarter link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/cthulhu-wars

Seriously, a lighter, area-control, dudes-on-a-map, wargame where you fight as the monster of the Cthulhu mythos? Add-in that each faction includes 64 high quality, high detail miniatures at 40-180mm scale (yes, the 180mm Cthulhu miniatures can hardly have that name applied, more like megatures)! This is probably the best thing I have ever seen! Yes, it is pricey... but MINIATURES!

[Arctic Blast]

Good grief. Yeah, that's a bit rich for me at the moment...especially with all those expansions that cost another arm and a leg. I also find it a bit much to believe that any store is going to stock this post-Kickstarter with an MSRP of $169.

The minis look great, but is the game even any good. Or is this just the next 'HOLY CRAP, COOL PLASTIC!' hit. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't get it.

[son_of_montfort]

Good grief. Yeah, that's a bit rich for me at the moment...especially with all those expansions that cost another arm and a leg. I also find it a bit much to believe that any store is going to stock this post-Kickstarter with an MSRP of $169.

The minis look great, but is the game even any good. Or is this just the next 'HOLY CRAP, COOL PLASTIC!' hit. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't get it.

Prototype reviews of the game have been positive. I do think that there is a bit of a OMG MINIS effect here, but the discussion of gameplay makes it look like a game similar to Chaos in the Old World mixed with some light wargaming. I do like the asymmetric factions, with each of them playing completely different strategies. IIRC, the designer, Sandy Peterson, has a decent pedigree. I believe he helped design the original Arkham Horror with Richard Launius, not to mention the Call of Cthulhu RPG done by Chaosium.

The pernicious thing about Kickstarter is that you get "exclusives" from the stretch goals that will likely be unavailable for none supporters (at least initially). So there are at least 3-4 unlocked Old Ones so far (including Cthugha and Chaugnar Faugn, one of my favorites), but only for stretch goal supporters.

[Steelgrave]

Sounds awesome. If they throw in cowboys and zombies, it's a first day buy for me   8)

[Arctic Blast]

I wonder how many buyers are hoping this sees the same insane second hand market as Zombicide did? How many of these are just being bought to be re-sold? And how long until that 'guaranteed' second hand market dries up, enabling us to laugh at people who drop $150+ on something they don't even want?  ;D the game does sound kind of interesting, but I'm not throwing down that sort of coin on 'kind of interesting', especially when I already own and enjoy Chaos in the Old World. And while Sandy Peterson has had a ton of success with the CoC RPG system, that doesn't mean he's necessarily a slam dunk for designing a board game.

Here's the thing that I find fascinating about expensive Kickstarters like this. Gamers as a group will bitch and whine about wanting cheaper shipping options when they make big orders, often complaining about $10. Gamers will buy from one place over another to save a grand total of $3.75 in purchase price. Gamers will complain about publishers who enforce higher price points at online stores.

And then those same gamers will drop $150+ (and $30+ in shipping on top of that) on something without often having access to the rules for the damn thing. Often because "Oh my God, all the extra stuff I can't buy later!"...for a game they haven't played and a game they cannot be certain they will even like. It's kind of madness, really.

I'm not judging someone for wanting to throw down their money on a purchase...people can buy whatever they want to. Hell, I would still love to toss down the same kind of money I would spend on this on acquiring a copy of Space Hulk Third Edition or the 15(?) year old D&D Adventure Game with an expansion or two. Why the difference? For me, it's because I've played both. I know what I'm getting for that money. I guess this is why I'm not likely to ever dive big in to Kickstarter...I'm tired of spending money on "maybe it's cool". I did that already when I first started getting in to board games.  ;D

[bayonetbrant]

based on what's currently been hit for the stretch goals, the value here is getting better and better.  I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.

[LongBlade]

Hoo boy that's tempting.

[TheCommandTent]

I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.

Same here, but it does look real cool.

[son_of_montfort]

based on what's currently been hit for the stretch goals, the value here is getting better and better.  I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.

Yeah, this is actually why I don't feel so bad. Arctic, the rules are posted, so the game looks fairly fun and simple with plenty there to love. Not at all cumbersome, IMHO. I'm looking forward to see what the spellbooks will be. At this point, I am excited about all the extras that I will be getting, even if I end up spending more in the long-run than just buying the base game at an online retailer.

Perhaps some backers are trying to tie into the resale business. I can't say that I blame them and if I had the extra capital I might have Kickstartered two copies just for that reason. But I think some people got burned by the Zombiecide resell scheme, as the game dropped to a low ~$40-50 on Coolstuffinc not only a few months after release (they had WAY too much inventory because they thought it would be the next big thing). I do think a lot of minis fans are banking on this one for the versatility of the figures.

If you want to profit in the resale market, you should look at Plaid Hat Games. Mice and Mystics was a huge hit and continues to sell out constantly even after a few reprints. I think you could make an excellent business going to conventions, gambling on the "next big deal," buying several copies and selling them on eBay or BGG. I would LOVE to do that, because - despite my academic leanings, I am a retailer/merchant at heart (which is probably why I study retailer/merchants for a living).

But we are going to hear from the horses mouth soon - I just got a chance to interview Sandy Peterson (over the magic of the internet) and we will be posting that interview ASAP!

[Arctic Blast]

based on what's currently been hit for the stretch goals, the value here is getting better and better.  I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.

Yeah, this is actually why I don't feel so bad. Arctic, the rules are posted, so the game looks fairly fun and simple with plenty there to love. Not at all cumbersome, IMHO. I'm looking forward to see what the spellbooks will be. At this point, I am excited about all the extras that I will be getting, even if I end up spending more in the long-run than just buying the base game at an online retailer.

Perhaps some backers are trying to tie into the resale business. I can't say that I blame them and if I had the extra capital I might have Kickstartered two copies just for that reason. But I think some people got burned by the Zombiecide resell scheme, as the game dropped to a low ~$40-50 on Coolstuffinc not only a few months after release (they had WAY too much inventory because they thought it would be the next big thing). I do think a lot of minis fans are banking on this one for the versatility of the figures.

If you want to profit in the resale market, you should look at Plaid Hat Games. Mice and Mystics was a huge hit and continues to sell out constantly even after a few reprints. I think you could make an excellent business going to conventions, gambling on the "next big deal," buying several copies and selling them on eBay or BGG. I would LOVE to do that, because - despite my academic leanings, I am a retailer/merchant at heart (which is probably why I study retailer/merchants for a living).

But we are going to hear from the horses mouth soon - I just got a chance to interview Sandy Peterson (over the magic of the internet) and we will be posting that interview ASAP!

Yeah, I CAN understand people being in to this. It looks neat as Hell, the pedigree is there, I get it. And the extras are impressive. I also didn't realize that the rules were up, so that's obviously a big plus for it compared to a lot of other Kickstarter offerings. So I'm backing away from blasting this, because it does make some sense (though I still find it highly unlikely the post-Kickstarter market is going to be at all friendly to an MSRP of $169).

And I can especially appreciate what Cthulhu Wars is offering in comparison to this : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1016374822/dark-darker-darkest?ref=live

THAT is inexplicable to me. Queen is hardly some new publisher with no resources...they're one of the biggest board game publishers in existence. So why are they using Kickstarter? I also cannot for the life of me figure out how in the Hell that game, with that list of components, comes in at $80 (that price doesn't get you any stretch goals. You need to drop $110 for that). That looks like a pretty bog standard components list for any other game that costs half of that. And I know that David Ausloos has been working on this for years, but come on...the only game the guy has actually created and developed from the ground up is Panic Station, and that could charitably be described as a hot mess. Bad rules and game mechanics that simply don't stand up to a single second of thought...if the way your game works doesn't make any sense beyond "Well, this was made that way to make it gamey", your game frankly sucks.

And yet, people are diving all over this...yet another zombie game that's grossly overpriced and designed by a guy lacking any kind of impressive credentials. Cthulhu Wars is fine...I am man enough to admit I was flat out wrong on that one. But this...this right here is pretty much EVERYTHING I find inexplicably stupid about Kickstarter, and in particular how people will race to throw masses of money in to any old thing.

[son_of_montfort]

Sorry for the response delay. I don't think you are "wrong" about the KS value of Cthulhu Wars, just that different people have different value thresholds. I mean, is it worth nearly an iPad to have one boardgame with all the minis, factions, and maps? Probably not, unless you are a rapid Cthulhu-phile who loves boardgames!

I totally ignored, Dark, Darker, Darkest. I was deep into Zombie games, but they are just so ubiquitous now that have lost a lot of interest. Queen's move to using KS is not abnormal for the industry now, unfortunately. While Cthulhu Wars is being made by Sandy's new startup, that seems only one sector of the table top KS use and I've seen big names like Asmodee, Tasty Minstrel, and IELLO using KS recently. In a sense, why should they pay for production costs when they can get the customers to provide the production costs up front? Makes sense, right? But there is something a little odd feeling about it, IMHO, when an established publisher does this. If Fantasy Flight opens up a Kickstarter, I'll be really weirded out.

Of course GMT does use P500, which is sort of like a KS scheme.

[Arctic Blast]

Sorry for the response delay. I don't think you are "wrong" about the KS value of Cthulhu Wars, just that different people have different value thresholds. I mean, is it worth nearly an iPad to have one boardgame with all the minis, factions, and maps? Probably not, unless you are a rapid Cthulhu-phile who loves boardgames!

I totally ignored, Dark, Darker, Darkest. I was deep into Zombie games, but they are just so ubiquitous now that have lost a lot of interest. Queen's move to using KS is not abnormal for the industry now, unfortunately. While Cthulhu Wars is being made by Sandy's new startup, that seems only one sector of the table top KS use and I've seen big names like Asmodee, Tasty Minstrel, and IELLO using KS recently. In a sense, why should they pay for production costs when they can get the customers to provide the production costs up front? Makes sense, right? But there is something a little odd feeling about it, IMHO, when an established publisher does this. If Fantasy Flight opens up a Kickstarter, I'll be really weirded out.

Of course GMT does use P500, which is sort of like a KS scheme.

I'm going to be curious to see if there starts to be a backlash at some point against companies going to the Kickstarter well time and again. I mean, how many times do Cool Mini or Not need to crowd fund a new game? They've been a massive success at this point, they certainly have enough business equity to get a game made without Kickstarting it, yet they go that route every single time. It seems odd to me that people don't ever seem to start questioning that after multiple near-million dollar runs.

I think that's my biggest hangup with the entire Kickstarter process : nobody asks questions. People just throw down hundreds of dollars on a speculative product without any rules available...yet those same people would never dream of doing the same in a game store without researching the games they're considering for a buy. Why is there that bizarre difference? Particularly when I look at something like Dark, Darker, Darkest and the designer's track record. This isn't something difficult to dig up, and yet people are tossing down $100 on the promise that he'll release the rules at some point. His whole basic argument for not having them up now makes no sense : you've been working on and play testing this game for years...yet you haven't written down a rule set yet? What? But people just accept it and throw down their cash. I don't get it.

[son_of_montfort]

Yeah I totally agree. I think there will be a KS reckoning at some point. Something like "Remember the days when we could just buy games in the store, without having to pre-fund their development?" Some companies are already experiencing trouble getting those stretch goals out and accommodating their huge plans with the logistical realities of game production. Even veterans like Steve Jackson Games have hit snags that basically pushed the release of Ogre Deluxe Edition back almost 8 months. Which is why I asked Sandy in the interview if he felt his prospective release date of December was realistic and doable. His answer was a little more equivocal than I would have liked to see, given how excited I am about the KS and how much I plan to back it.

[Arctic Blast]

I pretty much expected huge logistical hurdles for Ogre...the damn box is gigantic and weighs 25 freaking pounds. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to custom up shipping boxes to put the actual game boxes in. And getting all of those enormous cartons to post is going to be quite an undertaking at that size/weight as well. I can't even imagine what an organizational nightmare it is to try to get production on all of that stuff lined up and scheduled to arrive at the same time, either.

And seeing the rate at which Cthulhu Wars is selling, I would expect delays with it as well. Especially if a lot of people are loading up orders with extra expansions and the like. The more mixed the orders become, the bigger the nightmare of sorting out who gets what stuff is going to get, and the more extra stuff you need to wait for the arrival of before you can even start organizing that. With them forming a new company, they probably aren't going to be ready for the sheer scope of it. And I don't mean that as any sort of shot against them...almost no new company actually accounts for how much work is going to be involved with that end of the business.

[LongBlade]

Yeah I totally agree. I think there will be a KS reckoning at some point. Something like "Remember the days when we could just buy games in the store, without having to pre-fund their development?" Some companies are already experiencing trouble getting those stretch goals out and accommodating their huge plans with the logistical realities of game production. Even veterans like Steve Jackson Games have hit snags that basically pushed the release of Ogre Deluxe Edition back almost 8 months. Which is why I asked Sandy in the interview if he felt his prospective release date of December was realistic and doable. His answer was a little more equivocal than I would have liked to see, given how excited I am about the KS and how much I plan to back it.

I'd rather have an honest answer than one made by someone who didn't grasp the reality of bringing this together.