Tactical Gaming

[GJK]

I hear ya.  There should be no reason that the ASL Rulebook or Yanks or Beyond Valor be out of print (some of those are back in print but had been unavailable).  Unfortunately the fact is that MMP and most other board wargaming companies are small biz affairs with part time employees (working full time I'm sure but they have "real" jobs). 

I guess if there is some good news, the company IS in business so it's like only Avalon Hill ever made the stuff and what is out there is all that there ever will be.   MMP WILL get the stuff back in print, one item at a time and at a very slow rate but as best that they can.

On the "cool!" front, my copy of Rising Sun came in yesterday!  I've always wanted to play Japanese in an ASL scenario.  Now I just have to read and comprehend the rules for them.  :) 

[Ubercat]

I'd highly, highly suggest picking up a $30 copy of the ASL Starter Kit 3 and try that one out.  You can omit the vehicles and ordnance and just concentrate on the infantry rules.

I'd really like to get into the starter kits and learn the system, but the fact that whenever I go to the MMP site, so much of the system is "Temporarily Out of Stock!".

And ASL Starter Kit #1 is "Currently Out of Print!".   If they want to sell this stuff, they *really* need a better production process.   I see that 1 isn't needed for 3, but it sure would be nice to be able to learn the system in order, and have those scenarios to practice with.  I guess VASSAL would work, but it's just kind of off-putting the way MMP handles these.

Another example:  ASL Action Pack #4 - Normandy 1944  - contains:
3 ASL geomorphic mapboards (53, 54, and 55)
12 ASL scenarios featuring the new maps
2 errata pages for the ASL Rulebook

What are the prereqs for it?   Do I need Yanks...?  Which is out of print....

I saw (I believe) one of the co-owners of MMP at their booth at WBC last month. He informed me that there were no current plans to reprint ASLSK1 but it might happen in the long term. Apparently reprints don't bring in nearly as much revenue as new releases, even when the out of print item is from a popular game system and commanding a steep price on Ebay!

They had 2 copies of ASLSK1 for sale at $19.99 (IIRC). I grabbed one and also a copy of Where Eagles Dare from the Grand Tactical Series ($119). The store had already been open for hours. I can only surmise that there weren't many people knowledgeable about ASL in the crowds going through as the Starter Kits should have been snatched up much faster, for sale on Ebay if nothing else.

[smittyohio]

Maybe MMP should take note of what Victory Point Games is doing with their deluxe editions and self-publishing.

[Michael Dorosh]

ASL Rulez.   8)

There were some interesting threads on this topic at BGG recently. It's an old discussion the result of which is that everyone has their opinion and is seldom swayed.

I get the feeling Steve is a "realism" over "playability" guy but would be happy to find both if he could get both. I'm almost positive ASL doesn't fit into that category, making it a bad fit - for him?

[GJK]

ASL Rulez.   8)

There were some interesting threads on this topic at BGG recently. It's an old discussion the result of which is that everyone has their opinion and is seldom swayed.

I get the feeling Steve is a "realism" over "playability" guy but would be happy to find both if he could get both. I'm almost positive ASL doesn't fit into that category, making it a bad fit - for him?

Not to garner a chuckle, but what tactical board wargame is more "realistic" than ASL?  Many could claim an ease of playability over ASL so perhaps you have it backwards?  I know that Steve can't stand the monster rulebook that ASL has  despite the old counter-argument that you may only use 10% of the rulebook for any given scenario.  I also know that he doesn't like structured turns (in tactical gaming alone?) as he has indicated in this thread despite ASL not being a pure "IGO-UGO" due to the Defensive Fire principles/phase.  Me personally, I think that he lost in ASL one too many times and thus has a little grudge against it.  I'm sure that Steve will set me straight on that one.   ;D

[Michael Dorosh]

ASL Rulez.   8)

There were some interesting threads on this topic at BGG recently. It's an old discussion the result of which is that everyone has their opinion and is seldom swayed.

I get the feeling Steve is a "realism" over "playability" guy but would be happy to find both if he could get both. I'm almost positive ASL doesn't fit into that category, making it a bad fit - for him?

Not to garner a chuckle, but what tactical board wargame is more "realistic" than ASL? 

Search & Destroy, for one, but it had the advantage of being designed not to make a zillion dollars, or be "all-inclusive" of every combatant of every theatre of the world's largest war. It was written specifically to deal with the nuances of tactical combat in one specific conflict, and if Nick Stanopolis is to be believed, achieved the aim of simulating decision making - by both sides - far more realistically than Squad Leader/ASL.

It's a shame more games haven't tried to do this - i.e. actually model specific doctrines and approaches to battle. But it's not a very "sexy" topic (as my fav history professor used to say), and so most of the also-rans now emulate the ASL model - i.e. come up with formulas for morale and firepower and leadership, then throw in some chrome for "nationality rules" and try and blanket the whole Second World War, particularly with emphasis on equipment. Which seems like completely the wrong direction to take it all in.

A realistic treatment would do more what S&D did - examine how command and control in the various armies actually worked, then go a step further by examining what the armies actually did on the battlefield, and why, instead of concentrating on trivia like armour penetration stats and the maximum speed of the medium tanks, towing capacity of troop lift trucks, etc. None of that mattered in a firefight, to the troops or the commanders. I'm almost inclined to say that it's mystyifing why designers become so absorbed by it, but of course, the people who buy the games are now so accustomed to having every piece of equipment identified (see up thread for the discussion of MG-42s) that they must seem absolutely hamstrung to do so.

They shouldn't.

[Toonces]

That's a very thoughtful post, MD.

[GJK]

Search & Destroy.  Immediately I thought that it must be an old SPI game and a search on BGG confirmed it.  I had not heard of it before but had heard of its predecessor (Grunts!).  Not a very well known or accepted game (S&D); if you take what BGG offers you as far as rankings go.  I'd be up for giving it a playing - do you have a copy Mike?  Is there a VASSAL module for it?  I'll have to go look after I post this.  Reading some of the comments, I see that one big issue (the big issue?) with it is that KIA's/WIA's aren't tracked so you could have this squad of infinate size.  I may be misreading or not fully understanding their comments however.  This might be a game that Steve wants to track down.  I know that he's been "searching and destroying" all tactical board wargames that he could find in order to compare the game systems.

On a related note; I don't think that it's been mentioned in this thread but I have a copy of Soldiers: Man-to-Man Combat in World War II, the old John Butterfield design.  I haven't played it but have glanced at the rules.  I believe that it is impulse driven.  I'll have to ask Steve if he's tried it.  I did like what I've seen in the rules.  I may have to put this one on the table some time soon.

[bayonetbrant]

Anyone got a comparison of Cityfight against any of the games discussed here?

[Bison]

I'm still kicking myself in the ass for not picking up Combat Commander Mediterranean at Prez Con this spring.  Honestly I blame LB for my decision.

[Mad Russian]

ASL Rulez.   8)

There were some interesting threads on this topic at BGG recently. It's an old discussion the result of which is that everyone has their opinion and is seldom swayed.

I get the feeling Steve is a "realism" over "playability" guy but would be happy to find both if he could get both. I'm almost positive ASL doesn't fit into that category, making it a bad fit - for him?

Not to garner a chuckle, but what tactical board wargame is more "realistic" than ASL? 

Search & Destroy, for one, but it had the advantage of being designed not to make a zillion dollars, or be "all-inclusive" of every combatant of every theatre of the world's largest war. It was written specifically to deal with the nuances of tactical combat in one specific conflict, and if Nick Stanopolis is to be believed, achieved the aim of simulating decision making - by both sides - far more realistically than Squad Leader/ASL.

It's a shame more games haven't tried to do this - i.e. actually model specific doctrines and approaches to battle. But it's not a very "sexy" topic (as my fav history professor used to say), and so most of the also-rans now emulate the ASL model - i.e. come up with formulas for morale and firepower and leadership, then throw in some chrome for "nationality rules" and try and blanket the whole Second World War, particularly with emphasis on equipment. Which seems like completely the wrong direction to take it all in.

A realistic treatment would do more what S&D did - examine how command and control in the various armies actually worked, then go a step further by examining what the armies actually did on the battlefield, and why, instead of concentrating on trivia like armour penetration stats and the maximum speed of the medium tanks, towing capacity of troop lift trucks, etc. None of that mattered in a firefight, to the troops or the commanders. I'm almost inclined to say that it's mystyifing why designers become so absorbed by it, but of course, the people who buy the games are now so accustomed to having every piece of equipment identified (see up thread for the discussion of MG-42s) that they must seem absolutely hamstrung to do so.

They shouldn't.

Take a look at what Fire Team did decades ago Mike. I think you'll find exactly what you are talking about there.

GJK got hit on the head with an ASL rulebook and his vision hasn't cleared yet. He'll be okay when he plays a real tactical wargame. Most of us quit playing ASL when he was barely in High School. We have the experience of what a good wargame actually looks and plays like.

Good Hunting.

Good Hunting.

[Mad Russian]

Close Assault/Fire Power morphed with ASL is more what I'm looking at creating. I like the detail but I don't need every single squad and action that could have conceivably taken place in WWII to now, to have what I'm looking for.

Good Hunting.

[Mad Russian]

Speaking of Close Assault/Fire Power there seems to have been a veritable explosion of single man counter games since Close Assault was released in 1983. Many of which seem to be much more inclined to be impulse games.

Good Hunting.

[GJK]

GJK got hit on the head with an ASL rulebook and his vision hasn't cleared yet. He'll be okay when he plays a real tactical wargame. Most of us quit playing ASL when he was barely in High School. We have the experience of what a good wargame actually looks and plays like.

A love-hate relationship, this love of ours.  :)

[Ubercat]

Since ASL is playing a big role in this thread, here's the shrinkwrapped Starter Kit 1 I'm auctioning on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Advanced-Squad-Leader-Starter-Kit-1-New-in-Shrink-/231046804883?pt=Games_US&hash=item35cb767593