World in Flames (Matrixgames) looking for beta testers (multiplayer)

[undercovergeek]

So its aimed at the boardgame guys, who have the map, who have the rules, and probably a big ass table to play it on - why in gods name would they buy this?

[Toonces]

I don't think that's necessarily true.

I have World in Flames the boardgame and I don't have anywhere near the room to play it.  Further, I don't know the rules very well; having the computer enforce the rules would be very welcome.

[jomni]

So its aimed at the boardgame guys, who have the map, who have the rules, and probably a big ass table to play it on - why in gods name would they buy this?

Because this enables them to play with people at the other side of the world. And also rules enforcement will make it easier to learn.

[Toonces]

Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM.  Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat?  I assumed just hotseat.

[undercovergeek]

I don't think that's necessarily true.

I have World in Flames the boardgame and I don't have anywhere near the room to play it.  Further, I don't know the rules very well; having the computer enforce the rules would be very welcome.

So you've spent a hundred off dollars on the boardgame and are now prepared to spend another hundred odd dollars on a 'support package' - if the original had been 200 dollars with a rule enforcing support package - would you have bought it?

[JudgeDredd]

Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM.  Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat?  I assumed just hotseat.

You can play two player over netplay using Matrix own server system I believe or solitaire on release.

I love the manuals and in fact was one who argued with Matrix years ago about providing manuals. But I wasn't wanting them forced on people. I wanted the choice.

I'm sure these manuals are superb...but when you talk about a game this expensive, adding and removing things from the cart is very important. So forcing the purchase of the books is a tough call.

Also Erik - you mention the cost of the books being negligible and not going to affect the price of the game that much - well you need to talk to the other CEO because he wrote on your forum

If you think about the cost of a new hard backed game book - usually ~$40 each plus the cost of a printed map at that size - At least $100 and probably up to $400, the value for money on the physical part of the game is unbelievable. The physical items alone could have been valued at $200-$400.

I don't think you can play it both ways and stay being honest. They either cost a shed load or they don't and the cost of the game would've been reduced. I know they didn't cost $40 and that's not what he's saying - but he's proving a point by pointing out the large cost...a very clever marketing man is Mr McNeil.

Also - whilst I think paying for what a product is worth is totally fair, I'm not sure paying for what a product cost you to make is fair. It's not my fault (or any gamers fault) that it took the guy 10 years to make the game. To be completely honest I don't know what the hell he's been doing in 10 years. He could've programmed an hour a night for all I know and could be a bloody banker earning a shit load of cash.

The fact that he's not is neither here nor there - but charging people because something took this long to make does not = what the game is worth.

However - it's your business. But that kind of pricing structure isn't what I buy into. I buy games and pay the price that they are worth. I remember a time when that was Matrix policy - sell a game at a price that the game is worth regarding content, gameplay, structure and physical content...so now it's about how long it took to make? pfft.

[JudgeDredd]

I'm going to buy it  ;) happy now UCG  ;D

[Nefaro]

I'm going to buy it  ;) happy now UCG  ;D

Hahahaaa!

You buckled like a belt! 

:P 

[JudgeDredd]

Like a cheap belt

[undercovergeek]

I'm going to buy it  ;) happy now UCG  ;D

Seriously???

[jomni]

How much is it anyway?

[undercovergeek]

>100 whatever you use

[Grim.Reaper]

Take away all the cost discussions, I looked at the one AAR over there and some of the info in the threads....I have no idea how anyone can wrap there heads around a game that appears to be this complex to play.  I imagine there is some satisfaction in that type of game for people, but I find myself moving away to less complex games since the others just end up sitting on my hard drive.  Plus, has anyone seen how long a game will take to play with another player?  Has any of the beta testers completed a full game yet?  I can only imagine it will take countless hours and if I am correct, both of you have to be online at the same time to play it?  Just can't imagine two people finding that much time to play it at the same time.  I guess the board game players somehow find time to do it, so again must really be targeted for those players.

I'll remain firmly on the sideline buying my 100 games that I will get for the same price during the holiday sales:)

[JudgeDredd]

I'm going to buy it  ;) happy now UCG  ;D

Seriously???

No - but I thought I should keep my options open.  ;D

There is a charm about it - the manuals look great and I love the look of the board and the counters - those are definite draws for me

But the negatives are
1. Payment required for AI
2. Payment for more than 2 player and PBEM? (<-I don't know if this is the case, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary)
3. The game looks MASSIVE to play with 2 or more players - how the hell do you have the time/stamina to play it solitaire? Talk about losing the rest of your life
4. Price

I have to say, I have mentioned the price and the fact that the manuals are forced on you - but I would likely buy the manuals anyway if I bought the game...they look smashing...I'm just against it being forced on players.

I remember the fight to try and get Matrix to provide printed manuals. There were loads of people against the idea and loads for. Matrix eventually took the view that they would provide game in 3 flavours
* Digital Express download with PDF manual
* Physical copy with box, disk and PDF manual
* Collectors Edition copy with box, disk, manuals in PDF and printed (colour)

Suddenly there's no option for a Digital Express download - just physical and printed manuals

If an AI addon was free, I'd likely make a purchase

[ERutins]

Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM.  Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat?  I assumed just hotseat.

You can play two player over netplay using Matrix own server system I believe or solitaire on release.

Correct - the release includes internet play using our routing server (makes it very easy to find opponents and connect as it includes a lobby and forum and none of the issues of non-server internet play - no configuring ports or firewalls, etc.) for 2 players as well as solitaire and hotseat.  PBEM and AI are in the works for a future release, I expect PBEM will not take long, AI is well underway but a major project and will take a while.

I love the manuals and in fact was one who argued with Matrix years ago about providing manuals. But I wasn't wanting them forced on people. I wanted the choice.
I'm sure these manuals are superb...but when you talk about a game this expensive, adding and removing things from the cart is very important. So forcing the purchase of the books is a tough call.
Also Erik - you mention the cost of the books being negligible and not going to affect the price of the game that much - well you need to talk to the other CEO because he wrote on your forum

I never said that.  If you re-read my post, I say "Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible."

I do agree that these three volumes and the map pack, if published by many other companies, might cost the same or more even with no massive computer game included.

The manuals are expensive, the maps are expensive.  We decided that given the game and the market, they were necessary to do this release justice.  The maps are optional - if we did this to jack up the price, we could have made those mandatory as well.  We decided to print hard-bound large manuals in three volumes because of several reasons, as I explained in my post above.  In short, this game in this current release is more about the WIF tabletop community than the computer wargaming community.  Although it is just as awesome on the computer as on the tabletop, computer wargamers as a group have different expectations than tabletop wargamers, despite the fact that there is a lot of crossover.  It is also a very complex game and we feel from our own experience that the hard-bound reference manuals are not only a nice thing for tabletop gamers, but a necessity to have to learn the game properly (along with the interactive, non-interactive and video tutorials included in the game).  The version we sell will have a download and there are PDFs of the manuals, we just won't sell the download version alone.

If we had made the decision to offer a download version, the price would have been about the same as what we are offering with the physical+download.  The cost of the game with the hard-bound manuals is at the same price we had always planned for WIF, with or without these exceptional manuals and maps.  I will reiterate that internally we decided to reduce our margin per unit to make sure we gave the WIF community the release they wanted in terms of the physical materials.  We did not increase the planned price after deciding to add in the physical materials.  We decided that the physical materials were a significant enough play and education aid that to deliver the game without them would diminish the release.

Our logic may not be what people are used to from computer game companies, but we really do try to make each game as good as possible for its community and market.

The rest of your post was based on a false premise, so I'll just say that our pricing policy hasn't changed.

Regards,

- Erik