World in Flames (Matrixgames) looking for beta testers (multiplayer)

[ERutins]

1. Payment required for AI

AI is the only thing we're currently expecting to require a paid expansion of some kind, as it's at least another year of development work.  Everything else is expected to be a free post-release update, including more than 2 players in internet play (the code supports 6, but we need more testing on that before we can release that upgrade).  PBEM is planned to be supported, but again needs some more testing and we want to see how internet play goes as we see that as the best way to play WIF given the turn/phase structure.

Regards,

- Erik

[Grim.Reaper]

1. Payment required for AI

AI is the only thing we're currently expecting to require a paid expansion of some kind, as it's at least another year of development work. 
Regards,

- Erik

Whew.....I won't have to worry about this game for at least another year.....won't be interested until an AI is available.

[undercovergeek]

Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM.  Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat?  I assumed just hotseat.

You can play two player over netplay using Matrix own server system I believe or solitaire on release.

Correct - the release includes internet play using our routing server (makes it very easy to find opponents and connect as it includes a lobby and forum and none of the issues of non-server internet play - no configuring ports or firewalls, etc.) for 2 players as well as solitaire and hotseat.  PBEM and AI are in the works for a future release, I expect PBEM will not take long, AI is well underway but a major project and will take a while.

I love the manuals and in fact was one who argued with Matrix years ago about providing manuals. But I wasn't wanting them forced on people. I wanted the choice.
I'm sure these manuals are superb...but when you talk about a game this expensive, adding and removing things from the cart is very important. So forcing the purchase of the books is a tough call.
Also Erik - you mention the cost of the books being negligible and not going to affect the price of the game that much - well you need to talk to the other CEO because he wrote on your forum

I never said that.  If you re-read my post, I say "Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible."

I do agree that these three volumes and the map pack, if published by many other companies, might cost the same or more even with no massive computer game included.

The manuals are expensive, the maps are expensive.  We decided that given the game and the market, they were necessary to do this release justice.  The maps are optional - if we did this to jack up the price, we could have made those mandatory as well.  We decided to print hard-bound large manuals in three volumes because of several reasons, as I explained in my post above.  In short, this game in this current release is more about the WIF tabletop community than the computer wargaming community.  Although it is just as awesome on the computer as on the tabletop, computer wargamers as a group have different expectations than tabletop wargamers, despite the fact that there is a lot of crossover.  It is also a very complex game and we feel from our own experience that the hard-bound reference manuals are not only a nice thing for tabletop gamers, but a necessity to have to learn the game properly (along with the interactive, non-interactive and video tutorials included in the game).  The version we sell will have a download and there are PDFs of the manuals, we just won't sell the download version alone.

If we had made the decision to offer a download version, the price would have been about the same as what we are offering with the physical+download.  The cost of the game with the hard-bound manuals is at the same price we had always planned for WIF, with or without these exceptional manuals and maps.  I will reiterate that internally we decided to reduce our margin per unit to make sure we gave the WIF community the release they wanted in terms of the physical materials.  We did not increase the planned price after deciding to add in the physical materials.  We decided that the physical materials were a significant enough play and education aid that to deliver the game without them would diminish the release.

Our logic may not be what people are used to from computer game companies, but we really do try to make each game as good as possible for its community and market.

The rest of your post was based on a false premise, so I'll just say that our pricing policy hasn't changed.

Regards,

- Erik

if this was an initial release just to be of interest to the boardgamers of the WIF community, why not just wait one more year and have it released with absolutely everything that would satisfy the whole community - after 10 years of development how much more pressure can you have been under to release it early (which you have to admit, it obviously has, you can gloss it as 'for the boardgamers' but under that is 'not for anyone else because it isnt finished)?

[Toonces]

I think because this is essentially a port of a boardgame it is fair to say that it is targeted to board wargamers without an AI.  Sure, it's also not finished, but let's be honest with ourselves here.  We've already had a lot of discussion about how complex the game is; just how can we expect an AI to be programmed for this game with any competence quickly? 

For many people this game, with the books, in its current state is a great bargain.  Why wait to release it then?  Really, I don't see any issues here gents.  Matrix is giving you a lot of value for your dollar with this one. 

I'm a little surprised.  Not a lot, but a little, by the attitude here.  For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine.  Seriously.  This is a wonderful opportunity to game WW2 on a massive scale, with other wargamers, and I'm not hearing any discussion on that. 

I think maybe the discussion is focusing too much on the box, and not enough on the potential inside.

[undercovergeek]

For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine. 

because only 2 can play it at a time - unless ive misread that

and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to

[JudgeDredd]

For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine. 

because only 2 can play it at a time - unless ive misread that

and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to

+1

[Toonces]

Well, likewise I'm getting awfully tired of the bitching about the price of Matrix's releases every time a new game comes out. 

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but Matrix offers this complex game with an extraordinary development time invested, pimps it out with optional hardback books and maps, and all anyone can do is complain because gucci add-ons are being offered?

I'm just not seeing where the controversy is.  Maybe buying the boardgame and playing by Vassal is the best route for you and others.  Certainly nobody is forcing anyone to buy the game, nor pimp it out.

[undercovergeek]

Well, likewise I'm getting awfully tired of the bitching about the price of Matrix's releases every time a new game comes out. 

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but Matrix offers this complex game with an extraordinary development time invested, pimps it out with optional hardback books and maps, and all anyone can do is complain because gucci add-ons are being offered?

I'm just not seeing where the controversy is.  Maybe buying the boardgame and playing by Vassal is the best route for you and others.  Certainly nobody is forcing anyone to buy the game, nor pimp it out.

Toonces, im not mad, or complaining - i dont want the game, ive done my pennance with WitP AE. It isnt the extras, the add ons, the flashy bits it isnt anything at all to do with that, it isnt even the price per se. It is simply this - i want marketing executives to shut the hell up with their piss poor excuses for high prices and treat gamers with a bit of respect and just explain why it costs so much, dont hide it behind marketing buzz word shite, glossy maps and manuals. How does CA (without argung about the state of the game on entry to market) create a Hollywood blockbuster in maybe 3 or 4 years, with a massive multi million pound budget and throw it onto the market for the reasonable going rate of £40?

[Toonces]

They price the game at the point where they think it will maximize their profits.  Really, that should be all they say and leave it at that.

They're a business; it's what I expect them to do.

Somebody at Matrix gets paid a bunch of money to do their market analysis, run their math programs, and spit out some price point for a game.  It can't be much more difficult than that.

[undercovergeek]

They price the game at the point where they think it will maximize their profits.  Really, that should be all they say and leave it at that.

They're a business; it's what I expect them to do.

Somebody at Matrix gets paid a bunch of money to do their market analysis, run their math programs, and spit out some price point for a game.  It can't be much more difficult than that.

im not sure a game in dev for 10 years fits within most of the math program price calculators!

its cool - im just been grumpy, ive been too busy

[smittyohio]

Well, it doesn't take a genius marketing type to figure out they'd sell a boatload more copies if the game shipped with an AI, and didn't require purchasing the books.   Then again, this may speak to their confidence in ever having a working AI.

[GJK]

My speculation is Matrix is not going to, nor anticipate having a big ROI for MWiF; that is assuming that *somebody* has been getting paid *something* for all of this coding for all of this time.  Kicking in the hardbound rulebooks is a very nice move by Erik and Matrix.  I again speculate that the reason for that is to make up for the lack of AI and pbem in the game as coded at the moment. 

MWiF isn't going to appeal to a large market.  It's big, complex, long and did I mention complex?  That notwithstanding that it will have no AI or multiple multi-player/pbem support until later.  A boardgame to PC game port that *should* of had some good numbers was computer Conflict of Heroes.  I have no idea how many copies of that sold but I'm not hearing a lot of chatter about it so I don't think that it was wildly popular.  I would suspect that MWiF would sell even many less copies and the work on it has been going on for ages.  Perhaps the coding team (coder?) is just looking to make straight money off the sales and has been doing all of this coding part time on his time.  If that is the case, I tip my hat to him for having the dedication to the game and sticking with trying to put something out there that allows people to play WiF with rules enforcement. 

Still, if the hardbound books come in at a somewhat hefty cost and provided that Matrix doesn't anticipate making any/much money off of shipping costs, then I'm a bit confused as to why there isn't four purchasing options: digital download (only), digital download with physical copy, digital download with physical copy plus the hardbound books and finally all the bells and whistles included the printed maps.  If the digital download only option were available for say $60, surely more copies of the game would sell in its entirety than not having that as an option.  Then again, if they already have a warehouse full of these hardbound books (for some reason), then they've got to move them and by making them a mandatory purchase option would be the way to do that.  Isn't there a PC game that covers "Video Game Mogul" like game out there?  MWiF would be a good "scenario" for *that* game I would think.  :)

Erik, I know that you're reading.  I personally appreciate that Matrix is even going out there and taking the risk to bring classic boardgames to the PC.  Thank you for doing that.  I honestly hope that MWiF turns out to be a big hit some day and that it does continue to grow with added AI and multi-multiplayer support.

[smittyohio]

My speculation is Matrix is not going to, nor anticipate having a big ROI for MWiF; that is assuming that *somebody* has been getting paid *something* for all of this coding for all of this time.  Kicking in the hardbound rulebooks is a very nice move by Erik and Matrix.  I again speculate that the reason for that is to make up for the lack of AI and pbem in the game as coded at the moment. 

MWiF isn't going to appeal to a large market.  It's big, complex, long and did I mention complex?  That notwithstanding that it will have no AI or multiple multi-player/pbem support until later.  A boardgame to PC game port that *should* of had some good numbers was computer Conflict of Heroes.  I have no idea how many copies of that sold but I'm not hearing a lot of chatter about it so I don't think that it was wildly popular.  I would suspect that MWiF would sell even many less copies and the work on it has been going on for ages.  Perhaps the coding team (coder?) is just looking to make straight money off the sales and has been doing all of this coding part time on his time.  If that is the case, I tip my hat to him for having the dedication to the game and sticking with trying to put something out there that allows people to play WiF with rules enforcement. 

Still, if the hardbound books come in at a somewhat hefty cost and provided that Matrix doesn't anticipate making any/much money off of shipping costs, then I'm a bit confused as to why there isn't four purchasing options: digital download (only), digital download with physical copy, digital download with physical copy plus the hardbound books and finally all the bells and whistles included the printed maps.  If the digital download only option were available for say $60, surely more copies of the game would sell in its entirety than not having that as an option.  Then again, if they already have a warehouse full of these hardbound books (for some reason), then they've got to move them and by making them a mandatory purchase option would be the way to do that.  Isn't there a PC game that covers "Video Game Mogul" like game out there?  MWiF would be a good "scenario" for *that* game I would think.  :)

Erik, I know that you're reading.  I personally appreciate that Matrix is even going out there and taking the risk to bring classic boardgames to the PC.  Thank you for doing that.  I honestly hope that MWiF turns out to be a big hit some day and that it does continue to grow with added AI and multi-multiplayer support.

I think it's great what they're trying to do, I just wish it had an AI... one at least good enough to provide a challenge to average players.   I'd gladly pay for the hardcover books in that case.   But I'm not going to pay *until* the AI is out.   The developer seems like a really good guy, and i'm sure he thinks he can create a good AI in a relatively short period of time.  But I also bet he never figured he'd still be working to release the game towards the end of 2013.

Edit:  the cool thing about the books is that you won't have to worry about them becoming obsolete easily, since the game is based on an existing ruleset.   Many other games' physical manuals, like WitE, WitP, or any Paradox game for example, are useless after a while.

[JudgeDredd]

They price the game at the point where they think it will maximize their profits.  Really, that should be all they say and leave it at that.

They're a business; it's what I expect them to do.

Somebody at Matrix gets paid a bunch of money to do their market analysis, run their math programs, and spit out some price point for a game.  It can't be much more difficult than that.

I had hoped price could be discussed (among other things) here - as you most certainly cannot discuss the price over there.

And my beef with the price is neither here nor there - I just lolled a bit when I saw it. I have already said I love the look of the game and the manuals look incredible. It's all the bollox around it. I have grown over the years to absolutely DETEST marketing speak. It is and always will be the bane of my life.

But - if that's all I have to worry myself with, I'm doing a damn site better than most.

[Nefaro]

For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine. 

because only 2 can play it at a time - unless ive misread that

and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to

+1

+2