World in Flames (Matrixgames) looking for beta testers (multiplayer)

[ERutins]

For many people this game, with the books, in its current state is a great bargain.  Why wait to release it then?  Really, I don't see any issues here gents.  Matrix is giving you a lot of value for your dollar with this one. 

That's pretty much it - for the WIF community, it's ready.  We said from the start that his is a unique and unusual release - it's exceptional as a wargame, but it's not your run of the mill computer wargame release in any respect.  For WIF fans, it's a great release with great value. 

For those with price concerns, you want to buy the full board game instead, feel free, that will run you $200+.  I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should or shouldn't buy it, I'm just explaining what this release is and is not and what it offers.  I've seen a lot of false conjecture and I thought it would be best to clarify.

Regards,

- Erik

[ERutins]

and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to

Indeed I've never said it's a favour to you and I'm not sure when anyone in Matrix has suggested that, I'm just explaining what the release is and what our pricing policy is - I don't get where this is coming from.

The programming took as long as it did because of the game itself.  This is hard to explain to anyone who has not played WIF, but it really is an incredibly complex game to faithfully adapt to the computer.  The developer worked on average 12 hour days for those years just programming WIF and testing it to get it to this point and I don't believe it could have been done faster with as much accuracy to the boardgame.

Regards,

- Erik

[ERutins]

Toonces, im not mad, or complaining - i dont want the game, ive done my pennance with WitP AE. It isnt the extras, the add ons, the flashy bits it isnt anything at all to do with that, it isnt even the price per se. It is simply this - i want marketing executives to shut the hell up with their piss poor excuses for high prices and treat gamers with a bit of respect and just explain why it costs so much, dont hide it behind marketing buzz word shite, glossy maps and manuals. How does CA (without argung about the state of the game on entry to market) create a Hollywood blockbuster in maybe 3 or 4 years, with a massive multi million pound budget and throw it onto the market for the reasonable going rate of £40?

That's a classic apples to oranges comparison in so many respects.

First, I'm not a marketing executive, but when I see questions and bad information, I'll chime in to help explain what we were thinking.  To the best of my knowledge, I was treating everyone here with respect, but also trying to clear up misconceptions and false assumptions.

Second, CA would never take on a computer adaptation of World in Flames and comparing extremely niche mega-wargames to AAA titles that are aimed at the mass market in terms of development time, development cost and price is a non-starter.

Regards,

- Erik

[BigBlueFleet]

I'm usually in Matrix corner when it comes to pricing but it looks like someone has jumped the shark on this title.

I reserve the right to change my mind but these are the concerns I have.

Charging for an AI? Wow. :-[
If you believe the chatter the game is possibly overpriced considering it wasn't built from scratch and a remake of a board game. Too many hands in the cookie jar?
Extras look good on the book case but as a computer gamer I'm more interested in what is on my screen.
Compared to some of the art included in other Matrix, Slitherine  titles I believe the images posted on the interface this game is a step below.

[MikeGER]

here is the presentation at the Spiel 2013 in Essen  ... I had the 3book-box in my hand and it weights more then a loaded M9!
...and with the maps you can turn your man-cave into a personal Wolfsschanze

(...but without a decent AI, its just not my cup of tea, it would be just a collectors item to me, i usually prefer games with smaller units -down to tanks and squads-  on a narrow hex-grid)     

[ERutins]

One of the points I've been trying to communicate is that this game itself is not like our other games.  From a computer wargamer's perspective, I completely agree this is a hard sell.  I think we're likely to sell far more copies to computer wargamers once the AI is available.  From a WIF tabletop wargamer's perspective, I think this release makes much more sense.  So I understand that a pure computer wargamer will have some trouble connecting with this release - that's our challenge, to both make the WIF community happy and explain what is cool about this to the computer wargaming community. 

Some of the responses here are remarkably cynical.  I've tried to explain that the physical package does not exist in order to jack up the price for computer wargamers, but rather to make this release what it should be for WIF gamers who've wanted a computer version for 20 years.  As with all our releases, we respect that they will not be for everyone, but I do ask that some of the cynicism be reconsidered.  If you think about this from the perspective of a long-time WIF gamer, this release has a lot to offer, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I will say that I hope this release, either in its current form or once AI is available, does introduce more computer wargamers to WIF.  WIF is a niche even within tabletop wargames as it took a lot of investment of time, money and space to get into it.  However, similar to games like War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition for the computer, once you get into it it can become your only game for a long while; it's that good and is revolutionary in many ways still to this day.

Regards,

- Erik

[Staggerwing]

Erik, any vague and nonbinding estimate as to when PBEM and the AI will be ready? I know that it is a hard question to answer due to so many variables but I'm more interested in seeing the rough timeline so I can judge if and when I'd be investing in this game. If the PBEM option is only a few months away then that would go a long way toward making this game a buy sooner rather than later. Also, I'm guessing that the AI version would be a new release when the time comes. Will there be a low priced upgrade/addon option be available to those who get this version? If not, will there be a substantial discount upon repurchase?

Also, I know this is a long shot but any plans for an OSX or Linux version?

[ERutins]

Erik, any vague and nonbinding estimate as to when PBEM and the AI will be ready? I know that it is a hard question to answer due to so many variables but I'm more interested in seeing the rough timeline so I can judge if and when I'd be investing in this game. If the PBEM option is only a few months away then that would go a long way toward making this game a buy sooner rather than later. Also, I'm guessing that the AI version would be a new release when the time comes. Will there be a low priced upgrade/addon option be available to those who get this version? If not, will there be a substantial discount upon repurchase?

I'll be able to answer that much better in a few weeks, but my best guess right now is about a year for AI and PBEM sooner than that.  I should also add that we decided on internet play as the multiplayer mode in the initial release because it suits WIF better than PBEM, though we do plan on having PBEM support.  First will come the free upgrade to six players for internet play.  The AI will not require anyone to buy a new replacement release, it will be a reasonably priced add-on for the current release.  What is being released now is the base game, which will continue to be the supported release.  The AI will effectively be an optional add-on for those who want it but I expect we'll create a new combined base release with AI once that's available as a convenience to help new customers.

Also, I know this is a long shot but any plans for an OSX or Linux version?

Nope, sorry.  It runs fine on Boot Camp though, might work through emulation on Linux as well, but not sure about that.

Regards,

- Erik

[JudgeDredd]

Fwiw Erik I think the game looks great...and the manuals.

I was disappointed in the enforced manual inclusion, no digital download and the "aimed at boardgamers" statement. I wasn't overly surprised at the price

What about Staggerwings question 're the cost of the AI...Will it cost less if someone has already bought the base game or will it it cost what it'll cost?

[Toonces]

Man, I'm not going to lie.  I wish there was a hardbound manual like that for War in the Pacific: AE.  I have the paperback manual that came with the physical copy- one of the few physical copies I have bought- but damn, that hardbound stuff is just the cat's meow.  I'm having serious rulebook envy here.   8)

[Rekim]

I hadn't given much thought to purchasing computer WiF until this recent discussion. Given the chubby I'm sporting following the manual/map picks I will be sure to keep close tabs on the AI development.

I was aware of the LONG struggle to develop this product by the Australian Design Group and would occasionally check the ADG website to see if the project still had a pulse. Can't say that I ever expected it to make it this far. I'm still somewhat skeptical that a challenging AI is even possible but would love to be surprised.

[Toonces]

I'm pretty sure the guy who programmed this lives somewhere near me here on Oahu.   ;D

[Staggerwing]

He's definitely in Honolulu somewhere.

[JudgeDredd]

Here's a question - can you stack units? In all the pictures I've seen, I have not seen one stacked unit...not even air unit sharing the same hex as land units.

[Grimnirsson]

One of the points I've been trying to communicate is that this game itself is not like our other games.  From a computer wargamer's perspective, I completely agree this is a hard sell.  I think we're likely to sell far more copies to computer wargamers once the AI is available.  From a WIF tabletop wargamer's perspective, I think this release makes much more sense.  So I understand that a pure computer wargamer will have some trouble connecting with this release - that's our challenge, to both make the WIF community happy and explain what is cool about this to the computer wargaming community. 

I somehow fail to understand this business model. Wouldn't it be wiser to aim for a release version of the game that is able to widen the target audience while satisfying the core audience? Why not waiting one more year and bring it out with all features incl. AI and PbEM and see who's buying it? Why not making different versions available for different users? Digital download plus rules in pdf, CD version with pdf rules, CD version with hardcover rules etc..why not let the gamer decide what he wants and needs? This would probably allow you to sell it even to those who might be just interested in it and who could be convinced by the completeness of the product instead of rushing out a version of the game now that is in work for 10 years. Doesn't make any sense from a business perspective imo...