Dogfighting?

[Nefaro]

I know there have been a handful of additions to this category in recent years.  I'm wondering which ones you guys have played and what your thoughts are.

I'm not talking a grand strategy air war type of game, but a hex-based one representing maneuver & all that wholesomeness.  I still have copies of Webster's old Air Superiority and [/i] Air Strike[/i] and that is exactly the type I'm looking for, albeit in a new shiny system.  Those may still be the best of the bunch (and I'll keep them until they're pried from my cold dead fingers) but I want to check out something new.  Specifically regarding modern jets.  I spotted a couple possibilities, one of which I recall printing off years ago when it was in test format, but I wanted to get some opinions from you guys.

While I'm primarily looking for a modern air combat fix, I'd also like to venture into WWI and maybe even WW2 at some point, so all suggestions are welcome.

[Jack Nastyface]

Birds of Prey by Ad Astra games (2008) was co-designed by air warfare games expert Lee Brimmcombe-Wood.   It is probably one of the more detailed games out there.  I could not even get through the tutorial book, which is a stand-alone purchase for $30 (colour version).
I believe Downtown: Air war over Hanoi (also be L B-W, and available from GMT) does a good job of merging a strategic game with tactical combat.  Again, too painfully detailed for my liking, but beautiful to behold.
I have most recently played Check 6! Jet Age, and enjoyed it, as it is decidedly easier than the others.
FWIW..Air Sup and Air Strike later turned into Speed of Heat (not sure if it is still available).

[GJK]

Although my preferences are for board wargames, I personally believe that PC games/sims are better for 3D air combat/conflict sims.  That said, I'm looking to reacquire the classic Air Force/Dauntless games by Battleline/Avalon Hill.  I flew many tense missions using that system.  I don't know if anything comparable was ever made for modern age jets however.

[Nefaro]

Birds of Prey by Ad Astra games (2008) was co-designed by air warfare games expert Lee Brimmcombe-Wood.   It is probably one of the more detailed games out there.  I could not even get through the tutorial book, which is a stand-alone purchase for $30 (colour version).
I believe Downtown: Air war over Hanoi (also be L B-W, and available from GMT) does a good job of merging a strategic game with tactical combat.  Again, too painfully detailed for my liking, but beautiful to behold.
I have most recently played Check 6! Jet Age, and enjoyed it, as it is decidedly easier than the others.
FWIW..Air Sup and Air Strike later turned into Speed of Heat (not sure if it is still available).

Aha!  Birds of Prey was the playtest one I had downloaded & learned years ago.  You're not kidding about the detail & learning curve.  It looks to have grown even more since the early version I spied.  However, it seems to come with everything in one package so I may end up diving for that one.  I'm not really a scale modeller so dropping a bunch of extra cash on a full set of minis and paints wasn't in the plan,  Check Your 6! requires separate minis, huge hex maps, etc separately AFAICT.

[bayonetbrant]

air warfare games expert Lee Brimmcombe-Wood

http://grognews.blogspot.com/2010/08/tuesday-q-lee-brimmicombe-wood.html

[mirth]

CY6 isn't too difficult to get into. Most guys play with 1/300 planes which are fairly inexpensive and simple to paint. A good hex mat usable with that scale can be had for $30.

I own both CY6 and BoP. BoP is a cool game, but it is very complex. The basics of CY6 can be learned by anyone in about 30 minutes. It is nowhere near as detailed as BoP, but I find it more playable and enjoyable.

[Barthheart]

Although my preferences are for board wargames, I personally believe that PC games/sims are better for 3D air combat/conflict sims.  That said, I'm looking to reacquire the classic Air Force/Dauntless games by Battleline/Avalon Hill.  I flew many tense missions using that system.  I don't know if anything comparable was ever made for modern age jets however.

Gary,
I have AH's Air force/Dauntless. I have no idea what these are worth but they are not getting played by me so should really go to a good home to get some love.
Make me an offer if you want.

The only modern air war game I've played in the really old SPI Air War. Beast of a game to learn and play but very cool once you get going. Mind you a 5 minute real time dog fight could take a few hours to play out in the game.

[GJK]

Although my preferences are for board wargames, I personally believe that PC games/sims are better for 3D air combat/conflict sims.  That said, I'm looking to reacquire the classic Air Force/Dauntless games by Battleline/Avalon Hill.  I flew many tense missions using that system.  I don't know if anything comparable was ever made for modern age jets however.

Gary,
I have AH's Air force/Dauntless. I have no idea what these are worth but they are not getting played by me so should really go to a good home to get some love.
Make me an offer if you want.

The only modern air war game I've played in the really old SPI Air War. Beast of a game to learn and play but very cool once you get going. Mind you a 5 minute real time dog fight could take a few hours to play out in the game.

I'm not sure that they'd hit my table either to be honest though I wouldn't mind having copies of them for nostalgic reasons.  Let me research some prices for them and I'll shoot you a PM.  Thanks.

[MengJiao]

Birds of Prey by Ad Astra games (2008) was co-designed by air warfare games expert Lee Brimmcombe-Wood. 

  Lee Brimmcombe-Wood's work is fantastically enlightening.  I've played Elusive Victory and The Burning Blue.  Elusive Victory is especially interesting from the "Dogfight" point of view in that dogfighting is sort of modelled but mostly results in disruption and confusion and not much shooting down -- which is roughly the same as in The Burning Blue which bears out the analysis of The Most Dangerous Enemy in that it was never pure fighter-on-fighter battles that broke up big raids in the Battle of Britain (Mostly because a Big Wing took a while to assemble and mostly generated as much confusion as squadron attacks).  So with this reductive model of dogfights (ie that they are won when one side attacks with all the advantages and are otherwise not decisive), you can have all your dogfighting and a quasi-operational battle too (I think both Elusive Victory and The Burning Blue have 5-10 minute turns).

  I ran both games and did computer dogfights of the same battles.  The games produced realistic losses and the computer dogfights resulted in say 5-10 times the historical loss rates.

[mirth]

I onw Elusive Victory, but have never played it. Time to break it out, I think. Just played MMP's Yom Kippur, so I'm in an Arab-Israeli conflict game mode.

[MengJiao]

I onw Elusive Victory, but have never played it. Time to break it out, I think. Just played MMP's Yom Kippur, so I'm in an Arab-Israeli conflict game mode.

  When i played EV solo, I tossed out the suit stuff and just ran one raid with escorts and what not with both sides having the usual solo gaming choices: 1/3 what looks good, 1/3 blindly aggressive and 1/3 non-comittal.  There were still some pretty wild fights, but IIRC nobody got shot down and the bomb damage was not spectacular.  I remember the SAM dodge move which required dumping bombs IIRC was what kept the targets from getting the right doses of bombs usually.

[Nefaro]

I picked up both CY6: Jet Age (with Star & Pyramid expansion) and Birds Of Prey. 

I was still unsure whether CY6: Jet Age actually covered anything circa mid-1980s or later, and I am already somewhat familiar with how difficult BoP is (dread naught!  :P ) so I'll probably enjoy both in one way or another.  The really painful part was springing for the CY6 extras.  Not a huge minis person, mainly due to the money and time requirements, but using a small scale will hopefully minimize it.

And now you guys start talking Elusive Victory?  You evil bastards!  :P  That caught my eye when I was checking out the other games.  I should've known some of you own it.  However, it'll have to wait since my recent tabletop shopping sprees have me backlogged quite a ways.   ;D

[mirth]

I just looked in my CY6: Jet Age core book and the scenarios in that do not go beyond on the mid-80s. I don't own Star & Pyramid, though I have played a couple scenarios from it, but they were 6 Days War I believe. I don't know what there are for more modern scenarios in the S&P expansion.

I'm curious as to what planes you opted for. My first batch was mostly Korean War era (I have the Korea expansion book) and a few Phantoms and Mig-21s for 60s and 70s stuff.

I should have thought of it sooner, but it is possible to play CY6 without minis. I own the old Avalon Hill Flight Leader and you could play CY6 using the map and components from that (or any similar board game). I've never done it that way, but it could be done with counters. If you already have minis on the way, you'll be much happier with those in the long run.

I'm looking over my Elusive Victory rules now. Can't believe I haven't played it before this :P

[Nefaro]

I just looked in my CY6: Jet Age core book and the scenarios in that do not go beyond on the mid-80s. I don't own Star & Pyramid, though I have played a couple scenarios from it, but they were 6 Days War I believe. I don't know what there are for more modern scenarios in the S&P expansion.

Yeah, that was my impression and another reason to pick up BoP since I wanted some 4th Gen fighter hypothetical Cold War fighter action.  I also wanted something with a bit more fidelity, notably regarding the speed at which maneuvers are modelled.  One of the greatest things I enjoyed about Webster's Air Superiority series was the brilliant use of hex lines that made 30 degree increments possible.  The normal hex-facing system, which practically all hex-based games involving maneuver use, makes the sudden 60 degree turns a bit jarring.  I recall that being my major complaint in my first air combat hex game I had played as a kid (Richthofen's War IIRC) and it's still an issue for me.  While BoP is obviously a pain to calculate, I hope it handles this 'Sudden Turn' issue better than the norm.  S'ok, I enjoy learning new systems anyway.

I'm curious as to what planes you opted for. My first batch was mostly Korean War era (I have the Korea expansion book) and a few Phantoms and Mig-21s for 60s and 70s stuff.

I only picked up a couple MiG-15s and F-86s.  The rest is 60s-70s.  I had a helluva time trying to find a site boasting a widely assorted matching set of ~1/300 minis for more modern jet aircraft.  I finally settled on a mass of Raiden 1/285 minis since they seem to have most of the major models from that era.  I got pairs of the staple US and French fighters (also works for Israel and others of course), four each of the MiG-19 and -21 (and a pair of -15s and -17s) and a handful of Brit fighters.  Most notably, they had some pretty fancy flight stands w/ CY6 indicators listed as 'in stock' so I grabbed a dozen of those.  It cost a nice chunk of money for the rules, minis, and accessories and I still need to get paints at the local store, but hopefully the biggest expense is behind me.  Funny thing is.. I dunno anyone nearby who plays air combat minis so it's a blind leap.  :D

I should have thought of it sooner, but it is possible to play CY6 without minis. I own the old Avalon Hill Flight Leader and you could play CY6 using the map and components from that (or any similar board game). I've never done it that way, but it could be done with counters. If you already have minis on the way, you'll be much happier with those in the long run.

Yeah, I'll be happier with minis in the end, I'm sure.  I had also thought of using the counters I already have but that's the biggest issue with the old 80s GDW ones I currently have.  They're as basic as can be and not pretty to look at. 

I'm looking over my Elusive Victory rules now. Can't believe I haven't played it before this :P

Looks pretty cool to me, from a wider command viewpoint.  I just received Silent War in the mail and still haven't played as much Thunderbolt Apache Leader as I'd like, so I have plenty of those at the moment.  Still... EV is on my want list for the future.   8)

I'm glad tabletop gaming has had a resurgence.  I was sad to see it go on Critical Support in the 90s, although I also started ramping up my PC gaming in the era.  Just goes to show that we shouldn't proclaim any certain type of gaming as "dead and dying" because it will inevitably make a comeback.  This finally sank in when I saw the large local gaming store that sells only tabletop games and a few minis (mostly Warhammer). 

Now I'm getting regularly burned out on digital gaming so the timing couldn't have been better.  I suppose I'm just one of the many, and it's a reason for the rebirth.

[mirth]

I had to go back and look, but I ordered my jets from these guys:

http://www.i-94enterprises.com/products/airplanes/scotia-1300/

I went with the Scotia 1/300s. I don't have a lot of the "chrome" for CY6. No fancy markers or stands. I use simple plastic flying stands from GW and I use small d6 dice to track speed and altitude. The telescoping stands with the magnetic tips are cool, but expensive. I do have a pretty nice hex mat with a sky background.

If you haven't already, I recommend joining the CY6 and BoP Yahoo! groups. Both are great resources.