Where are the Retro Flight sims?

[Yskonyn]

Yes it's insane, espcially if you place it into context where even the more casual simmer seems to have no problem with shelling out a few hundred buck for a decent HOTAS and most all buy a TrackIR.
That's 250 - 300 bucks for a basic setup. But the price of software... no way! Weird eh?

[jomni]

They can use hardware for several titles.  So it is a more useful investment.

Investing big bucks on a single title is risky.
If you end up not liking it, then you're screwed.
Based on my experience, I have tried a lot of combat Sims but none was able to grab my attention for years. Third wire cane close but it did get old.  Falcon 4 and DCS are good and deep but I get real tired of them pretty fast. I come back after months of rest.

Civilian Microsoft Flight Simulator is the winner for me. It takes up 80% of my gaming time and I've spent countless amount of money on add-ons.

Remember,  casual gamers are not in for the long haul. They are only there because of hype or to satisfy a craving. Some may not have time to study which deep Sims demand.

[Yskonyn]

I think many simmers stick to only a few titles.
Most people I know solely fly DCS or Falcon. They're not 'sim-hoppers' at all and still lay down serious money for their hardware.

Still, I guess you are right that for a bigger part of the players the fact that you can use the hardware for more titles than one makes it easier to lay down serious money, but not so much for the software title itself.

I think we need to seperate 'cusual gamers' from 'casual simmers' here.
The former is unlikely to spend over a hundred bucks on hardware for sims to begin with (while they still like to play sim games some times), while the latter falls more into the category you just mentioned. At least that's how I see it.

[Father Ted]

Seems to me that the DLC mode is the way to go.  I downloaded the FTP RoF, just to see if I liked it (would not have spent £40 on a "complete" package) and have now spent £100 in installments.  I think we'll see a lot more "stealth selling" in gaming.  Someone posted on the BoS forums that he'd dropped £1000 on WT.  You can be sure that no one would spend that upfront on a videogame, but if it's a tenner here and a tenner there it's easier to stomach - and easier to lose track of.

It's the same with the hardware, once you have a decent PC (even that can be made incrementally).  I've gradually added head-tracking, pedals, a "throttle quadrant" and reasonable stick over the years as I've realised what each would add to the enjoyment of the game(s).  It doesn't have to be a huge initial outlay.

[Yskonyn]

I agree. I hadn't looked at it the way you did just now, but I guess the expanding your hardware piece by piece vs. expanding your given simulator piece by piece might just be a great example.
Even the more casually oriented simmers will probably fall much easier for expanding their copy if the cost is just incremental for the short moment.

Still, we don't see this on a large scale in sims yet, do we? Apart from Rise of Flight I can only think of  DCS, which expands its overall simulator via modules, but the latter still asks full price for 1 module instead of the 'incremental' price of the DLC for RoF.

[Nefaro]

I understand you completely.  Which is why I said we simmers have slit our own throats on this.

We want really expensive niche software, but we don't want to pay a lot of money for it.  So developers don't make it anymore. 

By setting that arbitrary $60 price point we've killed our own hobby.

I bought DCS:A-10 for $5 on Steam.  That is a shockingly insulting price to pay for that sim.  Honestly.  I don't find it particularly entertaining to play, so there's that, but for a sim of such high fidelity that you can use it to train for the real jet that's just obscenely cheap.  15 years ago we couldn't even imagine sims like DCS.

But forget about asking folks to pay up!

But then again that's for combat flight sims.  Browse around at FSX products sometime.  Good payware aircraft for FSX routinely push $50+.  I don't know why $50 is appropriate for a P-47 in FSX, but for DCS:WW2, six aircraft of that caliber as well as a mission editor, a variety of terrains, and all sorts of other bells and whistles need to be included for the same price.

I see the DCS examples brought up often, and I agree that they definitely need a good campaign facet added to DCS World.  I'd go so far as suggesting they create an expansion with a good dynamic campaign generator, since they already have a wonderfully modular system.  I'm guessing their programmers just wouldn't find any joy in creating such a thing, probably preferring to add new aircraft instead.  I dunno.  It would certainly garner them more sales from such an add-on, I would think.

As for pricing, I think Eagle Dynamics/DCS has shown that lowering their prices is obviously profitable and squeezes more sales out of each product that they otherwise wouldn't receive.   Else why would they regularly put their stuff on sale?  And their recent release of DCS World on Steam with package prices between $15 and $50, and their regular sales, is obviously keeping them profitable.  Don't fix it if it isn't broken.

On the other end of the spectrum, something like Steel Beasts Pro is what... $110 for the base sim?  It doesn't even have one of the aforementioned dynamic campaigns in it either, does it?  Maybe if it had that, I'd own it.  But price isn't the only factor in this equation and it rarely is.   The features & content is always a big consideration, in comparison to price.  As is DRM.  When it comes to SBPro, the price alone probably scares most people off, but both that and the DRM, together, just turns me away in disgust.  It just doesn't make sense for gamers like me, who tend to only play any one game in short spurts, to invest in such things and especially so if I'm gonna be treated like a criminal for such an expense.  They obviously want to keep their sim as niche as possible, which is their own decision, but I'd guarantee they'd have an upswing in sales if 1) they removed the DRM, and definitely more so if 2) they reduced the price of their base game to $60. 

Edit:  The modular DLC system is defnitely the way to go since people can check it out for an affordable price and part with their money easier on future add-ons.  I'd even go so far as to say that the DCS  free-to-play system has probably garnered them extra sales they wouldn't otherwise have.  Release a base package with one free aircraft/tank/whatever and charge for further packs.  It's a smart way to market your software.

[republic]

I would actually even go for the much hated subscription model if there were regular monthly updates of missions, assets, etc.  My dream would probably be DCS: Korea and DCS: Vietnam with a DCS hosted server where you hop in can set up your own missions with friends and fight the war.  Like Aces High II or WW2Online but only aircraft.

[agathosdaimon]

what happened to all the people who made the Janes flight sims - there were so many of those in teh nineties - so many good flight sims occupying a good space between fun and complexity. The Janes sims, the Interactive Magic sims, Empire Interactives' sims, all those Jetfighter sims and Novalogics sims and Microprose of course!!
perhaps we just dont have the proximity to the what if cold war scenarios and the interest created in modern air combat from the first Gulf War also. Owning a desktop PC and having a joystick were pretty common back then too, but now so much is console, laptop and tablet, but perhaps that has nothing to do with it, its fallen into a niche realm and when in that realm that sims will be made to suit the hard core audience i suppose.
I tried to get into DCS world's sims but they are a pain and a bore and with no story or atmosphere. as alwaysi thank the gods for Dosbox and also Nglide and the Enemy Engaged games which have endured well

[JasonPratt]

^^ Didn't some of the Janes' Sim people go on to make Thirdwire sims?

In the past when we've had these discussions I've stated the golden ruler I use to measure all flight sims against is SWOTL, Red Baron, and Aces over the Pacific. 

I'd love to see a flight sim today that had all the elements of Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and Dynamix's Red Baron and Aces over the Pacific.

You'd have a sim that would containe an awesome story/campaign/career mode, aircraft that are made available on their historic frontline introductions, a little bit of industry management, and finally naming your pilots and watching their careers progress with yours.  They just don't make this kind of game anymore.

Some of the WW1 indie devs are definitely approaching Dynamix' Red Baron, and in some ways have exceeded it.

SWotL was one reason I was so hyped by one of Microprose's last sims, The Mighty Eighth, which featured plenty of aircraft detail, a good (if small) introductory mix of fighters (Allied and Axis, including the ME-262 jet), and B-17 variants; plus several levels of play up to a dynamic campaign bombing or defending the Reich. My granduncle was the youngest American pilot of a B-17, and I was freaking there seeing what he saw!

Then it arrived with plenty of bugs, and as far as I know those were never ironed out, and here we are today. :(

[jomni]

what happened to all the people who made the Janes flight sims - there were so many of those in teh nineties - so many good flight sims occupying a good space between fun and complexity. The Janes sims, the Interactive Magic sims, Empire Interactives' sims, all those Jetfighter sims and Novalogics sims and Microprose of course!!
perhaps we just dont have the proximity to the what if cold war scenarios and the interest created in modern air combat from the first Gulf War also. Owning a desktop PC and having a joystick were pretty common back then too, but now so much is console, laptop and tablet, but perhaps that has nothing to do with it, its fallen into a niche realm and when in that realm that sims will be made to suit the hard core audience i suppose.
I tried to get into DCS world's sims but they are a pain and a bore and with no story or atmosphere. as alwaysi thank the gods for Dosbox and also Nglide and the Enemy Engaged games which have endured well

Third wire Sims are pretty much the Janes of today. But they are getting old themselves.

[agathosdaimon]

they did the strike fighters and wings over europe games yes?  yes they are good actually, great, i like them so much more than the DCS sims. more atmosphere and presence in the game

[jomni]

they did the strike fighters and wings over europe games yes?  yes they are good actually, great, i like them so much more than the DCS sims. more atmosphere and presence in the game

Yup.  It's the semi dynamic campaign and the variety that keeps you coming back for more.

[republic]

Hey look, someone listened!  Kinda...

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02/11/blue-sky-fragging-sky-rogue/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RockPaperShotgun+%28Rock%2C+Paper%2C+Shotgun%29

[Nefaro]

My eyes!!

Oh, the humanity!

[JasonPratt]

That is some straight-up first generation Ace Combat gaming!

Although I wouldn't call that retro flight simming exactly. The Microprose Stealth Fighter games would be retro flight simming.