Scottish Independence

[JudgeDredd]

It's over  :(

[GDS_Starfury]

and???  everything Im finding is 5 hours old.

[JudgeDredd]

Better Together won. Scotland still belongs to Westminster.  :(

[LongBlade]

Just got the notification via some news app.

I'll be interested to see how the demographics play out. The blurb I just saw said 84% of Glasgow went for yes. I wonder was this an urban versus rural referendum? Was the margin of victory large enough to settle the issue or will this happen yet again in the near future?

[GDS_Starfury]

Better Together won. Scotland still belongs to Westminster.  :(

all things being equal its the best way at the moment.  as a Southerner thats lived in Texas theres a big part of me that would love to see it leave the Union.  the reality is that the the total is greater then the mere addition of its parts.

[LongBlade]

I have no dog in the Scotland/UK debate.

However, I will make the observation that we, as a population of the Earth, started the 20th Century with an increased momentum toward nationalism. Or, in other words, one massive state-aggregated union.

Did the UK precede the trend by a couple of centuries? Maybe. That's outside the scope of my observation.

Point being, that we started the 20th Century trending toward conglomeration. But we seem to have closed it by moving toward smaller, independent states. Examples are myriad, but to refute the claim there don't seem to be a lot of causes at the moment which are trending toward larger, integrated states.

Is this right or wrong?

That seems to be a different question. But the trend, at least to me, seems clear.

[MikeGER]

Was the margin of victory large enough to settle the issue or will this happen yet again in the near future?

...in a few decades when the traditional muslim-minded immigrants offspring in England's major cities had outbirthed the rural small town Englishmen and it start to show, (with Sharia ruled quarters of  Londow) and all the other problems that came with that, the Scottish may vote again  ;)

[JudgeDredd]

Just got the notification via some news app.

I'll be interested to see how the demographics play out. The blurb I just saw said 84% of Glasgow went for yes. I wonder was this an urban versus rural referendum? Was the margin of victory large enough to settle the issue or will this happen yet again in the near future?

To be honest - I don't fucking care.  >:(

Seriously though, I put my friendships on the line with this. Not selflessly...but I live in England - I had no reason to come out on either side. But I did - and the reason I did is because I felt Scotland had hung on to the shirt tails of England for too long. I really believed that Scotland could stand in the world without the backing of the United Kingdom. It appears the Scottish electorate believe that my thoughts were total bollocks.

Having said that...
I am happy for the people that have kept the UK, including my mum, but I am personally, absolutely gutted that Scotland has decided to live in the shadow of the UK.

I totally understand that that is not the view of everyone here...I get peoples "big fish little pond" or vice versa...all this bollox about "ohhh...the bigger the better for you and - well, who the fuck knows" - I get other people see the world like that. But that is not my world, and more crucially, in view of this referendum, it is not my view.

Having said that, I think the fact that this was allowed to go ahead in a union of 300+ years without resorting to violence is an absolute testament to democracy and, more so, understanding of a people's right to determine their identity. I genuinely thank the UK government for allowing Scotland this opportunity. Clearly I hope "this is not the end"....but the fact we were allowed to have this referendum was a testament to the UK and that Union.

To anyone that I was insufferable to - I sincerely apologise....I was passionate but I hope not inconsiderate.

The people of Scotland have done that and they have chosen to stay British.

[JudgeDredd]

Sorry LOngblade. I've been awake since 7amGMT on the 18th and I've been drinking since 20:00...until now.

It's been a long LONG campaign and long day. I'm not really up for scrutiny

The union won (again) and I don't know that I will see Scotland free in my lifetime (forgive me and allow me please these words...I know people argue about Scotland no being Subjugated etc etc....but this is the second referendum my fellow Scots have chucked away). On top of that, I have "risked" some friendships on this vote...Thankfully, my wife has been very understanding.

I'll leave it for other happier, more victorious people to give you full SP.

[undercovergeek]

From my point of view and everyone I know.... no one feels happy or victorious this morning JD except maybe Scottish no voters, the news is simply reporting the facts, the streets are not full of people waving union jacks with tears on their face that the union has survived

Oddly there was a group on the radio this morning saying Cameron should now treat Scotland like a naughty child who tried to run away, no conciliatory rhetoric, more 'who the fk do you think you are?' And these were Scots

[Boggit]

Just got the notification via some news app.

I'll be interested to see how the demographics play out. The blurb I just saw said 84% of Glasgow went for yes. I wonder was this an urban versus rural referendum? Was the margin of victory large enough to settle the issue or will this happen yet again in the near future?

To be honest - I don't fucking care.  >:(

Seriously though, I put my friendships on the line with this. Not selflessly...but I live in England - I had no reason to come out on either side. But I did - and the reason I did is because I felt Scotland had hung on to the shirt tails of England for too long. I really believed that Scotland could stand in the world without the backing of the United Kingdom. It appears the Scottish electorate believe that my thoughts were total bollocks.

Having said that...
I am happy for the people that have kept the UK, including my mum, but I am personally, absolutely gutted that Scotland has decided to live in the shadow of the UK.

I totally understand that that is not the view of everyone here...I get peoples "big fish little pond" or vice versa...all this bollox about "ohhh...the bigger the better for you and - well, who the fuck knows" - I get other people see the world like that. But that is not my world, and more crucially, in view of this referendum, it is not my view.

Having said that, I think the fact that this was allowed to go ahead in a union of 300+ years without resorting to violence is an absolute testament to democracy and, more so, understanding of a people's right to determine their identity. I genuinely thank the UK government for allowing Scotland this opportunity. Clearly I hope "this is not the end"....but the fact we were allowed to have this referendum was a testament to the UK and that Union.

To anyone that I was insufferable to - I sincerely apologise....I was passionate but I hope not inconsiderate.

The people of Scotland have done that and they have chosen to stay British.

I am truly glad that Scotland has remained in the UK, but I REFUSE to gloat over the "Yes" campaigners.

When you look at the issues raised by JudgeDredd, and the Puss I find myself agreeing with them in large part, but not on the need to have independence as to the only way of achieving it. Those same issues affect the majority of the UK, and it has taken the independence movement in Scotland to galvanise opinion, scare the sh1t out of the Westminster politicians, and set a direction for political change that will be hard for Westminster to ignore. For that I say to the "Yes" campaigners, JudgeDredd, and the Puss a BIG thank you.

I think the independence for Scotland campaign was parochial, but the issues raised in argument for independence apply equally in many cases to the rest of the UK. I open my arms to the "Yes" campaigners, and say let's go for the bigger fish together, bring the passion you feel for our country southwards and share with the English, the Welsh and the people of Northern Ireland. While we may sometimes be fractious brothers, we are still brothers. It's time for reflection and a family reconciliation. I don't believe this is a matter of loss for the "yes" campaigners but the beginning of a new fight for civil rights in our country. We cannot now accept the status quo, and that is the legacy of the "yes" campaign.

The one difference is that the "Yes" campaigners will find is that many of the people who have opposed them on independence - myself included - share much the same outlook on the broader issues. You will now find that there are many people in the rest of the UK who find the grievances felt in Scotland are well justified, and will want to see a new UK with many of the values espoused in the independence campaign. You may have been more widely opposed on independence itself, but not on most of the motivations leading to the demand for it.

@JudgeDredd/the puss - you are not defeated. The "no" campaign may indirectly have done us all a favour in keeping our country together, but you are not defeated. You are no less/more Scottish for the result, and I no less/more English, and we are still of one family. We need to unite to bring Westminster to account, and break their paralysing, self-interested hold on our country. We need to unite for a fairer society - wasn't that really what the underlying demand for independence all about?

It's time to expand the SNP to the UKNP, and move the arguments south. Whatever you might think. I don't think the worse of you. You want a better country to live in, and what rational person would not want that? I just think the mechanism to achieve what you wanted was wrong, not the motivation to change things. It's time to expand the cause for change in our country, not just for Scotland but all of it. Participate and join with the rest of us, perhaps lead us - after all it is you who have faced up to Westminster and come pretty damn' close to winning @45% of the vote. So don't feel bad. You've lost a skirmish, but the bigger fight awaits for the whole UK. Don't think small. It's now time for us all to win! ...And we need you. :)

[Boggit]

From my point of view and everyone I know.... no one feels happy or victorious this morning JD except maybe Scottish no voters, the news is simply reporting the facts, the streets are not full of people waving union jacks with tears on their face that the union has survived

Oddly there was a group on the radio this morning saying Cameron should now treat Scotland like a naughty child who tried to run away, no conciliatory rhetoric, more 'who the fk do you think you are?' And these were Scots

I couldn't agree more. As to the radio group, what can you say? :( I think it insulting to take that view. >:( That things were perceived so bad that to many independence was the only serious option - that attitude spits in the face of the genuinely held concerns of Scottish "yes" voters, and justified frustration at Westminster politics. While I am in favour of a UK with Scotland in it, I will not disrespect the underlying wish for Scots to stand on their own feet, and make a better society for Scotland, even if I oppose the independence part. It is the "yes" campaign that has galvanised opinion far beyond independence, but as to how we run our country. For that I am truly grateful to the "yes" campaign. So now there should be NO backlash, but a reflection of how we got into the mess that drove many of our countrymen to say we are better off with secession, and fix those problems for us all. If we don't do that we are putting more powder in and around the keg, then having a firework party. Nuts!

[Boggit]

and???  everything Im finding is 5 hours old.

It's called a timezone... Just kidding ya Star.

[JudgeDredd]

I'll try and be clearer

I definitely didn't mean to suggest that anyone was gloating (did I actually come across like that? If so...I apologise)

I was just relaying my disappointment (jubilation...remember I was confused.com)

[Boggit]

I'll try and be clearer

I definitely didn't mean to suggest that anyone was gloating (did I actually come across like that? If so...I apologise)

I was just relaying my disappointment (jubilation...remember I was confused.com)

Don't apologise. I think you were very clear. :)

Sadly, as 'Geek remarked some of the "No" camp are already gloating, which is exactly what is NOT needed. We need to learn from and respond to what has been one of the most serious issues for our country. We are still united, but the divisive issues still remain. We can't blindly ignore the motivation for independence/secession. We in the "no" camp need to respect your view, and learn from it to make our country better so people don't feel marginalised, or painted into a corner with nowhere else to go.