Question about Matrix and WiF

[JudgeDredd]

It's been mentioned in a thread over there that fraud has taken place - taking peoples money knowing the game is currently not fit for purpose (that purpose being - having a decent gaming experience).

Now - I do not think that fraud has taken place, because I genuinely do not think it was wilful - in that they knew they were taking money for a product which would be broken for this length of time (4.5 months).

Having said that - could it be considered such now? By that I mean they know the extent to which it's broken now and have done for some time - and yet it's still on sale at Matrix - still at full price (rather cheekily imo) and presumably anyone can go there and buy the broken product.

It's not just netplay either. I've read about supply and oil being issues - apparently both of which are big parts of the game.

Regardless...lets say it's not fraud and ever has been - and I'd be fine with that because I actually think Matrix are a decent company - but...at the very least is it not rather misleading that the page for the game is not updated to reflect what they know now? They know the state of the game and the extent of the major issues...should the product page not be updated to reflect this?

Also - does no-one else but me think that Matrix, given how long this game has been "unplayable" - and I grant you that not all issues are experienced by all players from what I gather - that they should offer people who bought this product a good will gesture - some sort of rebate or voucher?

It's all well and good to say we're sorry, we got it wrong, the problems were more and bigger than we thought - but to no put that on a product page which advertises the game is kind of disingenuous to me.

Just wondered what your thoughts were - and in particular perhaps, your's JH with regards to the comments made about fraud...at what point is fraud proven?

I'm not starting a flame war about Matrix here - I do like the company and have done for many years - but when it comes to issues like this - I wonder where their customer relations department goes.

Ta.

[tgb]

I don't think you could reasonably expect Matrix to splash a big "Game is broken - purchase at your own risk!" sign on a product page.  What they COULD do is re-label the game as an early-access beta, cut the price in half, and issue a credit to everyone who already purchased.  That would serve as both a warning to new customers, a mea culpa to those who already purchased, while still generating income from early adapters who don't care.

[Grim.Reaper]

I'll leave it to the lawyers as to what they want to call it, but certainly my experience with the game is one of the most single reasons I have curbed my spending habits of late.  Reading the forum, certainly seems netplay is pretty broken and it seems the solitaire play also has its fair share of issues.  I am not a WIF expert, I bought in so I could learn the game since everyone always praised the board game.  But I can't even bring myself to load the game.  This being a monster game, I can't bring myself to invest a large amount of time in a game where there is a good chance I will run into an issue later in the game.....just deflates my interest.

With all that said, it has been released for just about five months now and each patch list is long, but it also seems issues continue to happen.  For a "premium" game as they called it, fell well short of deserving that title.  I am not someone who typically demands a refund or rants in the forums, but I do think my $100+ could have been better spent elsewhere.  I do think there are times when refunds or some kind of offering is needed and this is one of those times.  They said some kind of internal review is going on right now and they will update us by the end of the week, but not sure what to expect.  I doubt they will offer anything besides they are working hard to make it respectable, which to me seems like it is still a ways off.

I hate the arguments its a large complex game and they should be cut slack because of it and there is only one developer....that's not my problem.  When I purchase something, I should be able to play it within a reasonable amount of time.

One of my most disappointing experiences when you consider the current price and quality....

[JudgeDredd]

tgb - I agree it's not something a company would do - and you do go on to offer alternatives. But given the lack of those alternatives being on offer - given the current advertising of the game - is it not at least, currently, disingenuous and misleading to have the product page as is and charging full price for it?

GR - I feel for you. I remember when it was being released and I was too-ing and fro-ing. I remember how eager you were to get on it. Having it as a present probably sucked even more.

I also agree that "cutting slack" due to the size or complexity of a project is nowhere in the realms of good advice...in fact that kind of advice is more a slap in the face as the price ticket is "reward" for it being a huge "premium" product...not your patience as a gamer. I also totally understand why you aren't remotely interested in even starting it up - if you know it's that bugged - you would wonder how far you'd get into it before you hit a bug - and that would constantly play on your mind.

It sounds like a great game and I've said before I love the style. I do hope they get it together...for myself as well as people who have bought it. Of course I was always "adamant" (as adamant as I can be) that I wouldn't buy without an AI and even then it's going to depend on the price of the game and the AI...but it looks like the AI might be many, many moons off.

I think what would compound the issue is if they turned round in a few months time and said "Look - we've got the AI working"...and charged people for it. New players, yes - existing owners...really shouldn't - as a good will gesture.

It just seems to me their PR department have went on holiday. There's a lot of gamers bought that game based on it's reputation as a boardgame and the list of features. They paid for a premium product and didn't receive it.

I suppose for new gamers, one could argue that they should read the forums before going ahead with the purchase...but I don't think it should be down to user research when the magnitude of the issue is known.

Just my opinion of course...that's not worth a hill of beans in corporate land.

[Tuna]

Knowing the state of the game at release time, they should never have asked that price..

A lot of games the like to say premium game at a premium price.. but then to charge even more and it's just crap.. Just glad I didn't 'fall for it'..

And to leave a broken "Premium" Game up on their site still for sale for that "Premium" price is a real nice way to treat your new potential customers.. NOT...

[eyebiter]

.

[Bletchley_Geek]

Recall the hard cover color WiF manuals

I bought because of those books. Having WiF rules in one single publication, along with a run-down of the routines required to play the game got my attention.

[ERutins]

Hi Judge and everyone else,

Please keep an eye on the World in Flames forum later this week.  I've been posting this week to discuss community concerns.  We've been doing a review of the game and the post-release update process and we'll be posting an update on the state of the game and future plans by the end of this week.

regards,

- Erik

[Staggerwing]

Thanks for the update Erik. I'm also an early buyer but I had to put WiF on the back burner for a bit so I'll be interested to find out what's going on.

[vyshka]

I just don't know how people couldn't see this coming from a mile away. It seemed pretty obvious it was going to be an even bigger mess than Empire at Arms was. Shame too, because they are both excellent board games, and I say that as someone who has given a lot of money to Matrix over the years. Kudos to them on giving Steam keys to previous owners of Panzer Corps though.

[JudgeDredd]

Hi Judge and everyone else,

Please keep an eye on the World in Flames forum later this week.  I've been posting this week to discuss community concerns.  We've been doing a review of the game and the post-release update process and we'll be posting an update on the state of the game and future plans by the end of this week.

regards,

- Erik

Thanks Erik.

I truly expect that one day I'll buy this game. For me, at that time, price will obviously be important, but my post is really about current purchasers and any new ones that stumble through there. I'm not pretending I'm flag waving on behalf of the little people here. Absolutely not. What I do hope comes from this is a new process given the knowledge of this release. Something where when you say something is a premium product and you slap a big price tag on it, players get what they expect...and by that I mean a minimum of a playable game.

That's what I really hope comes out of this so that in the future when I do jump the gun and buy one of your big products, which I have in the past and almost did with this...almost £130 worth of "jumping the gun", then I won't be disappointed.

As always, looking over there, there's heated posts (which you can only really appreciate) and you as always keep your cool and post very sensibly. Hopefully things have been learned.

It's not like it's the first big ticket release you've made...WitE, WitP:AE, Command Ops:BftB...all pretty stable on release. No sensible person ever expects a fully bug free experience. But this one has been pretty unique.

Possibly what might help (and it may be posted over there, I certainly haven't been through all the threads, is exactly, specifically what the netplay problems are.

I'll be reading with interest as ever.

[Asid]

Possibly what might help (and it may be posted over there, I certainly haven't been through all the threads, is exactly, specifically what the netplay problems are.

Hi JD

I believe that the issues arose when they initiated the connection with the Slitherine servers. Well thats what i originally read and i'm sure it was official.

I have MWIF and am so dissapointed. I have un-installed it and don't even bother looking at the updates now as it just seems to break more!

I agree that there should be better information for prospective buyers as to the state of the code. The negativity towards any critiscism, even justified, is terrible! You are told to re-assess or lower your expectations etc   :o  ...

The problems do exist in solitaire as well as Netplay.

I would be very dissapointed/angry if i bought the game now and experienced these issues. issues which have been there since November 2013!

Regards

[Nefaro]

I just don't know how people couldn't see this coming from a mile away. It seemed pretty obvious it was going to be an even bigger mess than Empire at Arms was. Shame too, because they are both excellent board games, and I say that as someone who has given a lot of money to Matrix over the years. Kudos to them on giving Steam keys to previous owners of Panzer Corps though.

Agreed.  It seemed pretty obvious that the game was in no condition to be played before it was put up for sale.  Perhaps all the excitement got the better of people.

I also want to say that it was nice of them to give previous PzCorps owners Steam keys.  I got the impression that they were trying to shut down any competing stores who carried their titles after some of the other stuff was taken down elsewhere.

[smittyohio]

I enjoyed going through the tutorial, and tinkering around solitaire.  Not sure I have much interest in Netplay, though the fact that it's taking so long to resolve, as well as all the bugs & general clunkiness  in the UI makes me think I've wasted my money, since it doesn't bode well for how long the AI will take or if it will ever be competent.   They need to make this right with all the people who bought the game in such a poor state.

[RyanE]

Consumer law and policy is usually a product with a known defect has to be recalled or marked with known defects.  It is mostly self-policed.  It is only when people start dying that the government gets involved.

I think the assumption is that most people check forums before buying SW online.