"Iraqi authorities are determined to recapture the northern city of Mosul after most of it was overrun by al-Qaeda-inspired militants, the provincial governor said Wednesday, after himself fleeing from the city."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/iraq/article19113613/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/iraq/article19113613/)
That's not good. Think the current Iraqi government can push back? The Turkish consulate was also taken over.
Lots of Kurds around Mosul. AFAIK, the Kurds follow a different branch of Sunni Islam than the Arabs. Not sure how that will play into the current events.
If the Iraqi government uses Kurdish troops to try to retake the city...my money is on the Kurds.
Latest news is that they also took Tikrit and one other large city, as well as 50 Turkish hostages including a Turkish Army general.
These are the ISIS guys as I understand it. They are completely idiotic enough to not recognize erdogan would LOVE to wag his dog right through the kurds on his border and get his people unified behind an enemy other than him. Turkish hostages and an inability of the Iraqi army to protect it's own cities and borders is a perfect excuse.
It's almost like they are intentionally trying to provoke the Turks. I don't see how dragging turkey into iraq or syria helps ISIS, except that their kind of tyranny is most easily peddled in chaos.
Could this be a trigger for Kurdish independence at last? ???
It's definitely going to be a trigger for the Turkish Army to deploy over the border like they have before and right some wrongs done to them.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 11, 2014, 03:15:41 PM
Could this be a trigger for Kurdish independence at last? ???
Or a trigger for Kurdish extermination.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/zaman-syria-kurds-rojava-ypg-muslim-pyd-pkk-turkey-isis.html
A NATO member backing ISIS. That's going to make for an interesting security meeting, regardless if it's true.
.
This is Syria. The grey is controlled by ISIS, yellow- Kurds, red- Assad, green- others.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F88%2FSyrian_civil_war.png%2F1024px-Syrian_civil_war.png&hash=288b322b1d01e8e49b1d7824fa2536c339f9aeb4)
If ISIS gains control over north-west Iraq, they could have good chunk of real estate straddling Iraq and Syria.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/meast/iraq-predictions-revisited/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
According to the video in this CNN story, the US trained and equipped Iraqi forces melted away in the face of ISIS- much in the same way that their predecessors melted-away in the face of US & British forces in Gulf War II, and Coalition forces in Gulf War I.
Looks to me that the Iraqi nation built in the 20th century is doomed to fracture.
It's really a bunch of clans, cultures or religious groups is it not? (maybe Sunni/Shiite/Kurdish states would have been easier to manage).
I guess the Kurds felt snubbed by the current Shiite regime at some point. ISIS is drumming up support from disaffected Sunnis not content with the regime. These ISIS guys now have a lot of cash as well after hitting the banks in Mosul. I wonder who their original backers are.
Hope the Iraqi's can get their stuff together enough to fight back.
I wonder how Iran feels about the enemy of their ally taking over a city of their former enemy and defeating enemy fighters equipped and trained by the Great Satanic Enemy of Them All. I wonder how the US administration feels about possibly being the enemy of Iran's enemy. (I guess that's already being played out in syria)
The Middle East. One of the world's greatest depositories of energy and enemies. What could possibly go wrong right?
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 12, 2014, 08:28:43 AM
This is Syria. The grey is controlled by ISIS, yellow- Kurds, red- Assad, green- others.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F88%2FSyrian_civil_war.png%2F1024px-Syrian_civil_war.png&hash=288b322b1d01e8e49b1d7824fa2536c339f9aeb4)
If ISIS gains control over north-west Iraq, they could have good chunk of real estate straddling Iraq and Syria.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/meast/iraq-predictions-revisited/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
According to the video in this CNN story, the US trained and equipped Iraqi forces melted away in the face of ISIS- much in the same way that their predecessors melted-away in the face of US & British forces in Gulf War II, and Coalition forces in Gulf War I.
Looks to me that the Iraqi nation built in the 20th century is doomed to fracture.
Helluva choice for your average Iraqi, huh? You can be part of a "nation" held together by a tyrannical fucktard willing and able to wage biological warfare on the brownie kurds to the north and establish a political machine badly favoring a particular sect. Or you can have foreigners invade you until the fucktard is flushed out of his goat hole and the political machine outlawed into insurgency, all in the name of your freedom, until the invaders get tired of the blood, money, and machines it takes to tell you how to have a government and security.
Looks to me like american nation building in the 21st century is doomed to failure. Both at home and abroad.
I'm still in the let them all kill each other camp.
This may not be popular to say, but we could only fail at nation-building in this situation.
Had we actually been what people accused us of, colonial imperialists, but colonials dedicated to making actual states of the union out of our territories (where large and populated enough to apply), we might have succeeded, because we would have been seriously invested in making the region safe and workable in the long run.
But that would have transgressed against the United Nations commitment to national sovereignty at any cost. I understand that commitment, and I even understand the 'at any cost' part because if exceptions are allowed then how should the UN determine grounds to approve the exceptions? The UN was barely okay with neutralizing Saddam's military (and that only after he violated national sovereignty); they were never okay with removing Saddam and creating a new government there.
Still, trying to respect national sovereignty insofar as possible (if not quite at all costs) is a big reason why we left. Which makes our talk about acting to foster and preserve human rights in the area sound like rubbish: we must have gone in and then left again for our own expediency, right? We've only proven (on this calculus) that we weren't seriously committed to helping the Iraqi people as people.
The best option may be to let them split-up into Sunni, Shia and Kurdish states. However, the Turks would never allow a Kurdish state. The Iranians would probably gobble-up a Shia state, and a Sunni state would probably become fundamentalist in short order. Lovely. Makes me pine for the days of the Ottomans, when all of this shit was their problem. Even makes Saddam seem a bit less odious.
I still like the wall them off idea. Out of sight out of mind.
.
Quote from: eyebiter on June 12, 2014, 03:05:22 PM
Wonder how many Iranian special forces are fighting as 'Iraqi insurgents' this time?
I can't imagine there would be that many. Lots are tied-up in Syria, and the ISIS folks are Sunni; radical Sunni. They'd be hatin' the Shia Iranians. If there are Iranians, they'd be in the south-east, with the Shias- waiting for ISIS to come their way.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 12, 2014, 01:54:30 PM
This may not be popular to say, but we could only fail at nation-building in this situation.
Had we actually been what people accused us of, colonial imperialists, but colonials dedicated to making actual states of the union out of our territories (where large and populated enough to apply), we might have succeeded, because we would have been seriously invested in making the region safe and workable in the long run.
But that would have transgressed against the United Nations commitment to national sovereignty at any cost. I understand that commitment, and I even understand the 'at any cost' part because if exceptions are allowed then how should the UN determine grounds to approve the exceptions? The UN was barely okay with neutralizing Saddam's military (and that only after he violated national sovereignty); they were never okay with removing Saddam and creating a new government there.
Still, trying to respect national sovereignty insofar as possible (if not quite at all costs) is a big reason why we left. Which makes our talk about acting to foster and preserve human rights in the area sound like rubbish: we must have gone in and then left again for our own expediency, right? We've only proven (on this calculus) that we weren't seriously committed to helping the Iraqi people as people.
I agree, with the exception of pretending that we've been wronged by inaccurate accusations of our intent. Pretending that is like giving credence to 911 False Flag theorists.
A bigger problem than the above is unquestionably of commitment. One of the problems is that "we" -- as a nation -- were never seriously committed to helping the iraqi people. We were ostensibly seriously committed to protecting ourselves from WMDs. When that manufactured consent fell apart, "help the iraqi people by getting rid of a tyrant!" became the new manufactured consent. An important one -- a volunteer army needs to believe and see they are actually helping (which they did). But a conceit nonetheless.
To make atters worse, the "commitment" of the american people was the commitment of a people who, at the personal/individual level, many many many have reduced their belief in the responsibility of democracy and citizenship to only that which benefits them individually. Finally, we do not currently have a political structure that rewards or incentivizes long term planning or commitment, especially if that means short term pain. That's no way to build our own nation, let alone militarily force nation building on another.
There is no way we could have ever succeeded in Iraq. And we should have known that the closest thing to success for us in Iraq was GWI.
It was a failed attempt even before we complicated it with aspirations of maintaining national sovereignty. Of course, it might have been a wildly different story if our first act post invasion wasn't to ensure that the best armed and possibly most qualified iraqis to establish national sovereignty were outlawed from participation.
NM.
So which existing nation will be the first to recognize the new Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? China? Pakistan? North Korea?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/12/world/meast/who-is-the-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
So which existing nation will be the first to recognize the new Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? China? Pakistan? North Korea?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/12/world/meast/who-is-the-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
oooooo, good question! I gotta go with NK, but that's mostly on the assumption the Kims have little to live for but hating America. Although ex girlfriend pop star assassination does appear to be trending up. How is that we managed to send the worm but not the belieber over there, again?
ISIS - all I can think of is Archer.
If anyone questions the ruthlessness of ISIS, just read the article Centurion posted. Those bastards called al-Maliki a underwear salesman!
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 12, 2014, 03:18:07 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 12, 2014, 01:54:30 PMStill, trying to respect national sovereignty insofar as possible (if not quite at all costs) is a big reason why we left. Which makes our talk about acting to foster and preserve human rights in the area sound like rubbish: we must have gone in and then left again for our own expediency, right? We've only proven (on this calculus) that we weren't seriously committed to helping the Iraqi people as people.
I agree, with the exception of pretending that we've been wronged by inaccurate accusations of our intent. Pretending that is like giving credence to 911 False Flag theorists.
I only meant that whatever questions might be about our intentions, what we finally did can only lend weight to the answer(s) that our motives had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people.
Naturally had we stayed, there would still be challenges about our intentions -- there always would be given the area and the situation -- but at least we could point to a ongoing track record of dedication in trying to do something to improve their lives. Even if someone said we only did it for their oil or to line the pockets of industrialists back home, we could answer yes but they're a state of our nation with all the rights (and responsibilities) of being a state, representation in our Congress, etc. Texans might think the rest of the US (or a cabal of particular states) is only exploiting Texas for oil and resources, but that former republic has long had opportunities to contribute to and benefit from a fraternal cooperation.
QuoteIt was a failed attempt even before we complicated it with aspirations of maintaining national sovereignty. Of course, it might have been a wildly different story if our first act post invasion wasn't to ensure that the best armed and possibly most qualified iraqis to establish national sovereignty were outlawed from participation.
Generally agreed with the rest, but I can see why this also happened from a perspective of setting up a puppet state. Those people weren't going to be our puppet, and under our overall post-war strategic plan they would have had no incentive to cooperate with us in ways any different than Saddam had 'cooperated' with us.
Assuming 'puppet' was the (or a major) goal, that choice makes sense. But then the problem was "'puppet' being the (or a major) goal".
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
So which existing nation will be the first to recognize the new Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? China? Pakistan? North Korea?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/12/world/meast/who-is-the-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
I vote China. Wait, how in bed are they with Iran? Maybe I vote Pakistan.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 13, 2014, 07:44:26 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 12, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
So which existing nation will be the first to recognize the new Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? China? Pakistan? North Korea?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/12/world/meast/who-is-the-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
I vote China. Wait, how in bed are they with Iran? Maybe I vote Pakistan.
I left Iran off of the list, as I can see no upside to them recognizing ISIS. I guess that we could put Somalia, Aden, Sudan, or Libya (or any north African country for that matter) on the list.
Actually I meant I can't see China doing it (despite their very interesting stealth-colonialism policies lately) depending on how invested they are politically with Iran right now. But I honestly can't remember how much that is.
CNN reporting that three Iranian Revolutionary Guard units are now fighting in Iraq.
My bet is on Burkina Faso recognizing ISIS first.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 13, 2014, 07:42:26 AM
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 12, 2014, 03:18:07 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 12, 2014, 01:54:30 PMStill, trying to respect national sovereignty insofar as possible (if not quite at all costs) is a big reason why we left. Which makes our talk about acting to foster and preserve human rights in the area sound like rubbish: we must have gone in and then left again for our own expediency, right? We've only proven (on this calculus) that we weren't seriously committed to helping the Iraqi people as people.
I agree, with the exception of pretending that we've been wronged by inaccurate accusations of our intent. Pretending that is like giving credence to 911 False Flag theorists.
I only meant that whatever questions might be about our intentions, what we finally did can only lend weight to the answer(s) that our motives had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people.
Naturally had we stayed, there would still be challenges about our intentions -- there always would be given the area and the situation -- but at least we could point to a ongoing track record of dedication in trying to do something to improve their lives. Even if someone said we only did it for their oil or to line the pockets of industrialists back home, we could answer yes but they're a state of our nation with all the rights (and responsibilities) of being a state, representation in our Congress, etc. Texans might think the rest of the US (or a cabal of particular states) is only exploiting Texas for oil and resources, but that former republic has long had opportunities to contribute to and benefit from a fraternal cooperation.
QuoteIt was a failed attempt even before we complicated it with aspirations of maintaining national sovereignty. Of course, it might have been a wildly different story if our first act post invasion wasn't to ensure that the best armed and possibly most qualified iraqis to establish national sovereignty were outlawed from participation.
Generally agreed with the rest, but I can see why this also happened from a perspective of setting up a puppet state. Those people weren't going to be our puppet, and under our overall post-war strategic plan they would have had no incentive to cooperate with us in ways any different than Saddam had 'cooperated' with us.
Assuming 'puppet' was the (or a major) goal, that choice makes sense. But then the problem was "'puppet' being the (or a major) goal".
Very good points, all. I wonder if you might have been going in the same direction as I have been with the observation that things might have actually been better if we HAD employed the traditional 19th century imperial model. My direction is that GW1 and GW2 may be history's most recent argument that if you are going to use military force, the only goals that can possibly be achieved short of a "total war" approach are short term at best (ala GW1, a military defanged, but despot still in place.)
I suspect that many of the military and thinkers here might agree with that assessment. Which very much should direct our military force decision making, because democracies don't want to wield total war. And governments seem far to willing to commit to "lesser war."
Btw, -- off topic on this reply, but on topic to some of endfire's and centurion posts -- I caught a CBS news reporter from Iraqi last night who talked about growing iranian assistance in the protection of Baghdad against ISIS. The Law of Unintended Consequences, Iranian Variant: When you fight your neighbor to a stalemate for decades, and then your Great Satan comes in and does just about everything it can in it's power to hand that neighbor to you on a persian silver platter.
If ISIS takes Samaraa, what do people think they will do to the Shia mosque there? I want to call it the golden dome, but I think I am mixing mosque metaphors.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 13, 2014, 10:16:15 AM
Actually I meant I can't see China doing it (despite their very interesting stealth-colonialism policies lately) depending on how invested they are politically with Iran right now. But I honestly can't remember how much that is.
Doesn't China have some interesting investments in Ukraine ala stealth-colonialism? Between that and their increasing interest in me affairs, I gotta wonder if there are some Select Committees on Hua-Yi bitching about uncomfortable bedfellows right about now.
I know it's extraordinarily unlikely US boots will officially be on the ground, but spec forces fighting ISIS in iraq alongside iranian revolutionary guards makes me want to go catch that anniversary showing of Ghostbusters, if only for the "cats and dogs, living together -- real fire and brimstone kind of stuff" line.
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 13, 2014, 02:26:30 PM
I know it's extraordinarily unlikely US boots will officially be on the ground, but spec forces fighting ISIS in iraq alongside iranian revolutionary guards makes me want to go catch that anniversary showing of Ghostbusters, if only for the "cats and dogs, living together -- real fire and brimstone kind of stuff" line.
QFT!
I think I have to go watch Ghostbusters now too.
Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US. No that could get real interesting.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 13, 2014, 07:06:37 PM
Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US. No that could get real interesting.
Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 13, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 13, 2014, 07:06:37 PM
Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US. No that could get real interesting.
Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.
Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!
Well, not strictly Armageddon, but still. WW1 21st century style. Yeesh.
500 Marines went in this morning for some purpose, or so I saw on CNN while passing by. I joked with Mom that they'd sort things out. :knuppel2: (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wargamer.com%2Fforums%2Fsmiley%2FTakecover.gif&hash=9e0f9e63bbb3884905aff2bf0b4c414a58bb0a31) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wargamer.com%2Fforums%2Fsmiley%2FCTF.gif&hash=419fff1c197bee13231223aade802a591d498feb)
500 US Marines went back into Iraq? Maybe they were sent to protect US embassies, etc.
Quote from: mirth on June 12, 2014, 04:23:20 PM
ISIS - all I can think of is Archer.
This is all that jumps to my mind....
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.tvtome.com%2Fi%2Ftvp%2FmL%2F86680.jpg&hash=d59f447c02493f18f2044c59f97c03b931c6fb77)
Quote from: Gusington on June 16, 2014, 10:57:12 AM
500 US Marines went back into Iraq? Maybe they were sent to protect US embassies, etc.
Yeah, that is what was reported on CNN-HLN this morning.
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 16, 2014, 08:19:52 AM
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 13, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 13, 2014, 07:06:37 PM
Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US. No that could get real interesting.
Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.
Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!
Way ahead of you.
"Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs." ;)
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 16, 2014, 03:17:24 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 16, 2014, 08:19:52 AM
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 13, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 13, 2014, 07:06:37 PM
Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US. No that could get real interesting.
Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.
Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!
Way ahead of you. "Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs." ;)
Israel is very unlikely to get involved in Iraq.
Quote from: pawelj on June 17, 2014, 08:03:55 AM
Israel is very unlikely to get involved in Iraq.
"We don't know what happened to that company of insurgents, sir. Suddenly we hear screaming and prayers on their vox, the next minute they're all dead!"
"Son, as far as we're concerned... God killed them. And that's all anyone is going to say on that matter, understand?"
"Nine millimeter acts of God, so noted, yes sir!"
Quote from: pawelj on June 17, 2014, 08:03:55 AM
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 16, 2014, 03:17:24 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 16, 2014, 08:19:52 AM
Quote from: skeptical.platypus on June 13, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 13, 2014, 07:06:37 PM
Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US. No that could get real interesting.
Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.
Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!
Way ahead of you. "Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs." ;)
Israel is very unlikely to get involved in Iraq.
... again, until a new Iraqi dictator starts a new nuclear program.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/17/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
ISIS is getting closer to Baghdad. Apparently ISIS forces have attacked a prison near Baquba. It is referenced here in the CNN story.
Quote
Heavy clashes between Iraqi security forces and ISIS militants ensued, leaving at least one Iraqi security force member, nine militants and 44 prisoners dead, according to the Baquba officials. Iraqi state television reported that 52 prisoners were killed after ISIS militants threw hand grenades into the local prison.
I have heard a report that they were hoping to free some of their comrades. The CNN report states that 52 prisoners were killed by an ISIS hand grenade. But I have been told that medical personnel on the ground are saying that all 52 were shot at close range; payback for Sunday's executions.
I don't think that too many Iraqi soldiers will be surrendering in the near future.
Sounds very Soviet influenced.
Interesting article about the chance for a push for Kurdish independence in the midst of all of this fighting.
QuoteDIYALA PROVINCE, Iraq – Rockets and mortars peppered the vast plain below as Kurdish generals surveyed the battlefield. Plumes of smoke rose around the landscape as shells streamed over our heads, and a helicopter circled above. The sound of gunfire was endless, and as a tank roared backward ambulances headed forward.
Embedded with the Kurdish Psehmerga fighters, the defenders of the oil-rich northern enclave in Iraq, we stood ready as the ISIS swept through northwestern Iraq. But aside from a few light skirmishes, the Al Qaeda-linked army of ruthless terrorists seemed bent on taking their march south toward Baghdad, and not into the autonomous zone of Kurdistan, where hardened fighters are prepared to defend their oil-rich turf.
This northern front is one of the few places where ISIS have encountered resistance -- for unlike the Iraqi Army, the cohesive Kurdish force has held them back.
For miles leading up to this front, remnants of an Iraqi Army could be seen in the dust. Helmets and body armor discarded, barrack doors still open, humvees left sitting by the side of the road -- a stark reminder of the army that had faded into the night.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/06/17/leery-and-battle-tested-kurds-watch-as-isis-routs-iraqi-army/
One quote in the article that I am curious about is this ...
QuoteOthers believe this is a result of inaction in Syria, where ISIS has been allowed to grow rich, or it could also be seen as yet another front in the ever growing proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Can someone fill me in on what the journalist is talking about here?
Saudis = sunnis
Iran = shiite
I think the Saudis don't want much shiite influence in the region. The Iranians are of different opinion.
I've heard that Turkey is warming to the idea of an independent Kurdistan (presumably as long as it's borders along Turkey stay the same as those of current Iraq). With the pipeline for Kurdish oil and the good quality of the Autonomous Kurdish military I'm betting that Turkey is thinking that having a local friend that is on the lower end of the fanatically religious spectrum might be a good thing.
As long as Turkey's own Kurds don't get any funny ideas, that is.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 18, 2014, 06:41:27 PM
I've heard that Turkey is warming to the idea of an independent Kurdistan (presumably as long as it's borders along Turkey stay the same as those of current Iraq). With the pipeline for Kurdish oil and the good quality of the Autonomous Kurdish military I'm betting that Turkey is thinking that having a local friend that is on the lower end of the fanatically religious spectrum might be a good thing.
As long as Turkey's own Kurds don't get any funny ideas, that is.
An independent Iraqi Kurdistan will almost certainly encourage Turkish Kurds to agitate in favour of joining a Kurdish state.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F5%2F58%2FKurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%25281992%2529.jpg&hash=592822015676e8a9a35197baba1127341bf77c7c)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds#mediaviewer/File:Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg
Looks like ISIS is moving on with the ethnic cleansing and leaving no stone unturned.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/middleeast/isis-forces-last-iraqi-christians-to-flee-mosul.html
(http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/middleeast/isis-forces-last-iraqi-christians-to-flee-mosul.html)
BAGHDAD — By 1 p.m. on Friday almost every Christian in Mosul had heard the Sunni militants' message — they had until noon Saturday to leave the city.
Men, women and children piled into neighbors' cars, some begged for rides to the city limits and hoped to get taxis to the nearest Christian villages. They took nothing more than the clothes on their backs, according to several who were reached late Friday.
The order from the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria came after Christians decided not to attend a meeting that ISIS had arranged for Thursday night to discuss their status.
"We were so afraid to go," said Duraid Hikmat, an expert on minorities who had done research for years in Mosul. He fled two weeks ago to Al Qosh, a largely Christian town barely an hour away, but his extended family left on Friday.
Oy vey.
With this conflict getting out hand and reports genocide coming in it looks like the US has decided it might intervene at least by air.
Quote'America is coming to help'
Published August 08, 2014
FoxNews.com
774
Never autoplay videos
President Obama announced Thursday night in a televised address that he has authorized the U.S. military to conduct airstrikes "if necessary" against Islamist militants in Iraq, and the military has conducted a mission to drop humanitarian aid there to help religious minorities stranded amid the violence.
Obama said in the statement from the White House the U.S. military is authorized to launch targeted airstrikes if Islamist militants advance toward American personnel in northern Iraq. Declaring that "America is coming to help," he also said that the U.S. decided to conduct the drops to the 50,000 or so religious minorities stranded on a mountaintop in the country's north, who have been forced to flee their homes as the militants advanced.
Obama said the religious minorities are under the threat of genocide from militants from the Islamic State (IS), the group formerly known as ISIS, and are stranded on the mountain without food or water. He said airstrikes could also be used to help protect those civilians.
The Yazidis, who follow an ancient religion with ties to Zoroastrianism, fled their homes after the issued an ultimatum to convert to Islam, pay a religious fine, flee their homes or face death.
"Earlier this week, one Iraqi in the area cried to the world, `There is no one coming to help.' Well, today, America is coming to help," Obama said. "We're also consulting with other countries -- and the United Nations -- who have called for action to address this humanitarian crisis."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/08/obama-authorizes-air-strikes-against-militants-in-iraq/
Happenng right now...US planes targeting ISIS artillery. Obama now the 4th US President in a row to take military action in Iraq. It's a big crusty rash that won't go away.
I hope this helps the Iraqi's and Kurds in kicking ISIS out. Iraq has a lot of internal divisions which I don't think have healed, not sure the current regime is helping that.
A strong 'Kurdistan' is very much in our national interest. If we can draw the line at acting as the Kurdish Tactical Airforce as well as giving them logistical support I'm all for it. The Kurds have repeatedly indicated they would like to maintain strong ties to the US both militarily and economically and as an ethnic group they have enormous below-the-radar connections inside Turkish society as well as being a back-door influence on the moderate part of Iran's.
Honestly, the Kurds seem like the only group in the area that isn't bat-shit crazy and likely to end up going all Karzai on us.
Quote from: Gusington on August 08, 2014, 01:33:50 PM
Happenng right now...US planes targeting ISIS artillery. Obama now the 4th US President in a row to take military action in Iraq. It's a big crusty rash that won't go away.
Half measures rarely work.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 08, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
A strong 'Kurdistan' is very much in our national interest. If we can draw the line at acting as the Kurdish Tactical Airforce as well as giving them logistical support I'm all for it. The Kurds have repeatedly indicated they would like to maintain strong ties to the US both militarily and economically and as an ethnic group they have enormous below-the-radar connections inside Turkish society as well as being a back-door influence on the moderate part of Iran's.
I've read that the US is now funnelling arms to the Kurds. Clearly everyone believes that Iraq is already 3 nations, so why pretend any more?
And now the Iraqi President has appointed a new Prime Minister, a former aide from his own Shia party.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Looks like the Shia are consolidating as well.
Seems the French are also in to deliver weapons to the Kurds...
Everything must be done to stop this slaughter....
Quote from: Centurion40 on August 11, 2014, 09:23:24 AMClearly everyone believes that Iraq is already 3 nations, so why pretend any more?
Because Turkey is going to pitch a fit when 1/3 of their country tries to join "Kurdiqia"
Turkey is going to lose it when they see French weapons being sent to the Kurds also.
Quote from: Gusington on August 13, 2014, 01:03:53 PM
Turkey is going to lose it when they see French weapons being sent to the Kurds also.
don't think so....they're much happier with the Kurds than with IS...
Quote from: Anguille on August 13, 2014, 01:48:25 PM
Quote from: Gusington on August 13, 2014, 01:03:53 PM
Turkey is going to lose it when they see French weapons being sent to the Kurds also.
don't think so....they're much happier with the Kurds than with IS...
Let's hope so.
FWIW, Kurdish areas extend from Syria to Iran. Could be a sizable swath that ends up getting looped into Kurdtopia.
As someone else said, the Kurds appear to be the most normal in that neghborhood.
Quote from: Gusington on August 13, 2014, 02:57:25 PM
As someone else said, the Kurds appear to be the most normal in that neghborhood.
After 500 years of repression it's getting to be their time again.
IIRC Saladin was a Kurd. Let's hope another arises to crush the trash around them.
Not all of the Kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks. Though I think at this point the best outcome would be Turkey supported Kurdistan that is tied to Turkey. Something that gives Kurdistan it's own military and domestic control, but gives Turkey some percentage of the oil and open trade with Greater Turkey. The Iranians, Syrians, and Iraqis will be pissed, but maybe that means it would be a good solution.
https://news.yahoo.com/syrian-kurdish-fighters-rescue-stranded-yazidis-172250706.html?.tsrc=lgwnthis (https://news.yahoo.com/syrian-kurdish-fighters-rescue-stranded-yazidis-172250706.html?.tsrc=lgwnthis)
Quote
MALIKIYA, Syria (AP) — In a dusty camp here, Iraqi refugees have new heroes: Syrian Kurdish fighters who battled militants to carve out an escape route for tens of thousands trapped on a mountaintop.
While the U.S. and Iraqi militaries struggle to aid the starving members of Iraq's Yazidi minority with supply drops from the air, the Syrian Kurds took it on themselves to rescue them. The move underlined how they — like Iraqi Kurds — are using the region's conflicts to establish their own rule.
For the past few days, fighters have been rescuing Yazidis from the mountain, transporting them into Syrian territory to give them first aid, food and water, and returning some to Iraq via a pontoon bridge.
The Yazidis, a Kurdish-speaking minority who follow an ancient Mesopotamian faith, started to flee to the Sinjar mountain chain on Aug. 2, when militants from the extremist Islamic State group took over their nearby villages. The militants see them as heretics worthy of death.
"The (Kurdish fighters) opened a path for us. If they had not, we would still be stranded on the mountain," said Ismail Rashu, 22, in the Newroz camp in the Syrian Kurdish town of Malikiya some 20 miles (30 kilometers) from the Iraqi border. Families had filled the battered, dusty tents here and new arrivals sat in the shade of rocks, sleeping on blue plastic sheets. Camp officials estimated that at least 2,000 families sought shelter there on Sunday evening.
Nearby, an exhausted woman rocked a baby to sleep. Another sobbed that she abandoned her elderly uncle in their village of Zouraba; he was too weak to walk, too heavy to carry.
Many said they hadn't eaten for days on the mountain; their lips were cracked from dehydration and heat, their feet swollen and blackened from walking. Some elderly, disabled and young children were left behind. Others were still walking to where Syrian Kurds were rescuing them, they said.
"We are thankful, from our heads to the sky, to the last day on earth," said Naji Hassan, a Yazidi at the Tigris river border crossing, where thousands of rescued Yazidis were heading back into Iraq on Sunday.
Displaced people from the minority Yazidi sect, fleeing violence from forces loyal to the Islamic St ...
The U.N. estimated around 50,000 Yazidis fled to the mountain. But by Sunday, Kurdish officials said at least 45,000 had crossed through the safe passage, leaving thousands more behind and suggesting the number of stranded was higher.
Syrian Kurds have carved out effective self-rule in the northeastern corner of Syria where they make up the majority. But while members of the ethnic group in both Iraq and Syria pursue their destiny, the two communities are divided by political splits.
Iraq's Kurds, who have managed a self-rule territory for over two decades, are dominated by factions that have built up strong ties with neighboring Turkey. Syria's Kurds, however, are closer to longtime Turkish Kurdish rebels and until the 2011 uprising against President Bashar Assad were firmly under his control.
Syrian Kurdish officials said soon after Yazidis fled their villages, they began fighting to create a safe passage. They clashed with Islamic State fighters upon entering Iraq, losing at least 9 fighters, but by Aug. 7 had secured a safe valley passage, cramming Yazidis into jeeps, trucks and cars to bring them some 25 miles (40 kilometers) away. Some of the ill were even rushed to hospital.
"We answered their cries for help. They were in danger and we opened a safe passage for them into safety," said military official Omar Ali. "We saw that we had to help them and protect them; they are Kurds and part of our nation."
In saving Yazidis, Syrian Kurds were also demonstrating their own ambitions for independence as Syria's civil war rages on.
They announced their autonomous area of Rojava in January, and rule several far northeastern Kurdish areas of Syria. Government forces stationed in the area were redeployed over two years ago to battle rebels seeking Assad's overthrow, Syrian Kurdish officials said.
But in entering Iraq, the Syrian fighters are also challenging their Iraqi Kurdish rivals. They say they entered after the Iraqi Kurdish fighting force, called the peshmerga, fled Yazidi villages after short battles with Islamic militants. The peshmerga say they were outgunned by the militants.
The U.S. has since assisted the peshmerga fighters with airstrikes, and on Tuesday, a U.S. drone strike destroyed a militant mortar position threatening Kurdish forces defending refugees near the Syrian border. A day earlier, the U.S. said it would provide more weapons directly to Kurdish forces, but it was unclear what materiel was under consideration. Later Tuesday, the Iraqi military said a helicopter delivering aid to the displaced had crashed.
For now, with the peshmerga gone and state aid ineffective, the Yazidis who survived the mountaintop ordeal were counting on the Syrian Kurdish fighters. Covered in dust among crowds at the Tigris crossing, Hassan said without the fighters all would have been lost.
"Were it not for them, no Yazidi would be saved," he said
Quote from: OJsDad on August 13, 2014, 03:22:59 PMNot all of the Kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks.
More like "none of the kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks" since the PKK have been waging a low-level insurgency for 30+ years.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 13, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 13, 2014, 03:22:59 PMNot all of the Kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks.
More like "none of the kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks" since the PKK have been waging a low-level insurgency for 30+ years.
Actually, the Iraqi Kurds have been working with Turkey. How do you think the Iraqi Kurds are getting their oil out of the country.
Quote from: OJsDad on August 13, 2014, 03:50:44 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 13, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 13, 2014, 03:22:59 PMNot all of the Kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks.
More like "none of the kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks" since the PKK have been waging a low-level insurgency for 30+ years.
Actually, the Iraqi Kurds have been working with Turkey. How do you think the Iraqi Kurds are getting their oil out of the country.
True.
Turkey has been aiding Iraqi Kurdistan, first quietly, and now openly, to establish a quite lucrative oil export economy. Why do you think Maliki is so pissed at them? Turkey probably sees Iraqi Kurdistan as as amodel of Kurdish ambition alternate to the one espoused by the PKK, since it is
outside of Turkey.
Hopefuly having ISIS on your doorstep or backyard lawn is enough to warrant some cooperation.
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for ISIS to attack Turkey. Than NATO countries would be obligated to get involved...
...or ignore their treaty obligations, fracture the alliance, and hand Russia eastern Europe on a platter. It could go that way too, I guess.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 14, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for ISIS to attack Turkey. Than NATO countries would be obligated to get involved...
...or ignore their treaty obligations, fracture the alliance, and hand Russia eastern Europe on a platter. It could go that way too, I guess.
Best likely scenario for WWIII that I've seen since the collapse of the USSR.
Quote from: Centurion40 on August 15, 2014, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 14, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for ISIS to attack Turkey. Than NATO countries would be obligated to get involved...
...or ignore their treaty obligations, fracture the alliance, and hand Russia eastern Europe on a platter. It could go that way too, I guess.
Best likely scenario for WWIII that I've seen since the collapse of the USSR.
I dunno. Taking down the World Trade Towers didn't embroil us in a full scale WWIII. I doubt invading Turkey would fare any better (worse?).
Those nuts may eventually provoke their extermination, but it will take more than a border skirmish to do so. Personally, I favor neutron bombs. Effective, and they're much more neighbor-friendly.
Yeah I know it's weak, but so is any active conflict going down the road to WWIII.
The WTC was a terrorist attack. If it had been clear that Russia or China sponsored the attack, sure there could have been WWIII.
Meanwhile say ISIS attacks Turkey, Turkey invokes NATO, we all come to Turkey's aid (not that they'd need it, unless they also provoke the Kurds into open rebellion, and neo-Kurdistan makes an alliance of convenience with ISIS) diverting attention from Russian shenanigans in Eastern Europe... assuming Vlad would take advantage, and he might. It could blow-up.
Mom this morning: "Argh! I saw a news crawl last night that said the President said the mountain top wasn't a problem anymore, but I couldn't find anything saying why, and I still can't find anything this morning on the news! What happened, did we send in the Marines to give them a heroic rescue out while beating the fool out of those ISIS guys using our weapons, like Iron Man?" {paraphrased}
Me: "Um, no. The Syrian Kurds went in and rescued them and fought off the ISIS guys, and then let them stay or sent them on their way as they wished. Now the Yadz' are singing the praises of the Syrian Kurds, though to be fair the Iraqi Kurds we were supporting with a few air strikes did try -- they just got beat and ran away."
Mom: "...what." {paraphrased}
Me: "Yeah, it was epic! For the Syrian Kurds I mean. The US military has basically one main job outside the US, to help large numbers of people in desperate trouble, and we couldn't be assed enough to do it. The Yadzis are saying things like 'We are grateful from our heads to the sky and to the end of time!' and how wonderful someone cared enough to save their lives at the risk of their own."
Mom: "....sigh." {paraphrased}
Me: "Well, maybe we were too busy helping save the Iraqi Christians and Shiites from being slaughtered and driven from their homes and just couldn't project enough force to help them, too, in time... oh. Wait."
Mom: "....SIGH!!" {paraphrased}
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 15, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
Mom this morning: "Argh! I saw a news crawl last night that said the President said the mountain top wasn't a problem anymore, but I couldn't find anything saying why, and I still can't find anything this morning on the news!
Last night reports were on Fox that there are now only 2500 people on the mountain - half of whom are shepherds and want to remain there.
The rest? It is not clear if they escaped/were slaughtered/were massively overestimated. Whatever the reason, the numbers are now effectively irrelevant.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 15, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 15, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
Mom this morning: "Argh! I saw a news crawl last night that said the President said the mountain top wasn't a problem anymore, but I couldn't find anything saying why, and I still can't find anything this morning on the news!
Last night reports were on Fox that there are now only 2500 people on the mountain - half of whom are shepherds and want to remain there.
The rest? It is not clear if they escaped/were slaughtered/were massively overestimated. Whatever the reason, the numbers are now effectively irrelevant.
According to interviews on Channel 4 News with Kurds on the ground, there are still many people there, many of whom are unable to get out on their own due to being scattered, disabled, too young, or infirm.. The snake ISIS needs to be stopped now with real force. The US and Europe have the power to do it, but the President's and Prime Minister's need to grow a pair, and do what needs to be done to kill the Islamist cancer before it spreads further. The moral cowardice of doing nothing is not a wise option. Leaving the cancer to spread is stupid. Not only is it in the interest of the people who live in Iraq, but the West and Israel too.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 15, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 15, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
Mom this morning: "Argh! I saw a news crawl last night that said the President said the mountain top wasn't a problem anymore, but I couldn't find anything saying why, and I still can't find anything this morning on the news!
Last night reports were on Fox that there are now only 2500 people on the mountain - half of whom are shepherds and want to remain there.
The rest? It is not clear if they escaped/were slaughtered/were massively overestimated. Whatever the reason, the numbers are now effectively irrelevant.
Read the article I posted on previous page.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 13, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 13, 2014, 03:50:44 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 13, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 13, 2014, 03:22:59 PMNot all of the Kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks.
More like "none of the kurds are buddy-buddy with the Turks" since the PKK have been waging a low-level insurgency for 30+ years.
Actually, the Iraqi Kurds have been working with Turkey. How do you think the Iraqi Kurds are getting their oil out of the country.
True.
Turkey has been aiding Iraqi Kurdistan, first quietly, and now openly, to establish a quite lucrative oil export economy. Why do you think Maliki is so pissed at them? Turkey probably sees Iraqi Kurdistan as as amodel of Kurdish ambition alternate to the one espoused by the PKK, since it is outside of Turkey.
Good thinking there. It would solve a lot of tensions if the Kurds had their own state. The problem is that Turkey is historically unlikely as a nation of land grabbers to give up territory seen by Kurds as traditionally Kurdish. The experience of Northern Cyprus is a good example of Turkey grabbing land, sitting on it and then colonising it.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 14, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for ISIS to attack Turkey. Than NATO countries would be obligated to get involved...
...or ignore their treaty obligations, fracture the alliance, and hand Russia eastern Europe on a platter. It could go that way too, I guess.
ISIL is a common enemy. It is in Russia's interest to side with Turkey too. There is no love lost between the Russian's and the Islamists. Leaving aside the Ukraine/Former Warsaw Pact Russian Empire for a moment, the Russian's don't want ISIL on their doorstep.
Quote from: Boggit on August 15, 2014, 04:57:50 PM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 14, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for ISIS to attack Turkey. Than NATO countries would be obligated to get involved...
...or ignore their treaty obligations, fracture the alliance, and hand Russia eastern Europe on a platter. It could go that way too, I guess.
ISIL is a common enemy. It is in Russia's interest to side with Turkey too. There is no love lost between the Russian's and the Islamists. Leaving aside the Ukraine/Former Warsaw Pact Russian Empire for a moment, the Russian's don't want ISIL on their doorstep.
Oh I agree. Russia has much more to fear from ISIS than the West and they know it. My only point is that the integrity of NATO rests on the confidence that all of the members will defend any of the members if attacked, and if that is undermined, say by our president refusing to get in loved in Iraq to protect Turkey, it could fracture the alliance, particularly with how vulnerable the Baltic states and Poland are feeling these days.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 15, 2014, 08:48:41 PM
Quote from: Boggit on August 15, 2014, 04:57:50 PM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on August 14, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for ISIS to attack Turkey. Than NATO countries would be obligated to get involved...
...or ignore their treaty obligations, fracture the alliance, and hand Russia eastern Europe on a platter. It could go that way too, I guess.
ISIL is a common enemy. It is in Russia's interest to side with Turkey too. There is no love lost between the Russian's and the Islamists. Leaving aside the Ukraine/Former Warsaw Pact Russian Empire for a moment, the Russian's don't want ISIL on their doorstep.
Oh I agree. Russia has much more to fear from ISIS than the West and they know it. My only point is that the integrity of NATO rests on the confidence that all of the members will defend any of the members if attacked, and if that is undermined, say by our president refusing to get in loved in Iraq to protect Turkey, it could fracture the alliance, particularly with how vulnerable the Baltic states and Poland are feeling these days.
But that is a persuasive argument to comply. Does the US want to see any more Russian expansion? Moreover, sometime in the future the US is going to have a very major disagreement with Chinese expansionism in Asia, and neo-colonialism in Africa, all of which have the capacity to damage American prestige and economic interests. The US will be looking for allies when the crunch comes. If they've blown NATO, what is to compel Europe to supporting the US? The whole point behind the treaty is the mutuality. Whilst, the US presently has the largest military in the world that may change over time. If you take the bigger picture, dealing with Iraq/ISIL may be an uncomfortable pill to take, but it's better than the alternatives, which make the world even more unstable.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/08/18/how-much-it-costs-the-u-s-to-blow-up-captured-u-s-military-hardware-in-iraq/ (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/08/18/how-much-it-costs-the-u-s-to-blow-up-captured-u-s-military-hardware-in-iraq/)
You know it's gone to shit when you have to spend a fortune to blow up your own shit.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 19, 2014, 09:31:45 PM
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/08/18/how-much-it-costs-the-u-s-to-blow-up-captured-u-s-military-hardware-in-iraq/ (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/08/18/how-much-it-costs-the-u-s-to-blow-up-captured-u-s-military-hardware-in-iraq/)
You know it's gone to shit when you have to spend a fortune to blow up your own shit.
But what choice do they have? The alternative is less palatable.
At this point none. The point is to not step in it in the first place. Maybe the guiding principle is do not start what you cannot see the end of. Easier said than done I know.
when you get down to it we still havent seen the end results of WW1 or 2.
a nation state of our size and power cant sit back and do nothing. and thats the problem with being a superpower.
ya want to be the Godfather? ok.... but heres all the shit that goes along with the job...
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 10:30:18 PM
when you get down to it we still havent seen the end results of WW1 or 2.
a nation state of our size and power cant sit back and do nothing. and thats the problem with being a superpower.
ya want to be the Godfather? ok.... but heres all the shit that goes along with the job...
That's the truth!
I think it says a lot that, for all we've done we still don't keep what we fight for. it's a principle not a territory.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 19, 2014, 10:02:20 PM
At this point none. The point is to not step in it in the first place. Maybe the guiding principle is do not start what you cannot see the end of. Easier said than done I know.
In fairness the plan wasn't to abandon Iraq in haste. There were supposed to be some troops there to help bolster the Iraqis.
But someone was determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 10:30:18 PM
when you get down to it we still havent seen the end results of WW1 or 2.
Economically either, at least for WW2. We're still basically geared for a wartime economy (minus some more obvious points like aluminum drives), and have been since the 40s.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 07:19:07 AMBut someone was determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
But he promised we could go home when the job was
n't done!
I guess more to the point, the only 'job' that could be feasibly 'done' was proper nation-state building, which would take a few generations of coherent effort. Coherent effort?? -- but that's politically un-possible!
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 19, 2014, 10:02:20 PM
At this point none. The point is to not step in it in the first place. Maybe the guiding principle is do not start what you cannot see the end of. Easier said than done I know.
In fairness the plan wasn't to abandon Iraq in haste. There were supposed to be some troops there to help bolster the Iraqis.
But someone was determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I don't think so. It's easy to hand wave saying all would be well with some troops. It is pretty plain to my eye that it would take decades of real occupation to make some change to the long term culture of the region. How long did the UK control India? They now have a real democracy with many of the bad habits of their old culture. The caste system is still real there. The abuse/ rape of women is still rampant. They have not changed that much.
The only way to make an area like your culture is to have civilians (under protection) make a life there. Kind of like the chinatowns of our cities. You would need to make western towns.
Slightly OT
The more years of battling the extremists go by the more I think the Israeli settlements are the only way to have productive lawful areas in palestine.
The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 20, 2014, 09:20:12 AM
I don't think so. It's easy to hand wave saying all would be well with some troops. It is pretty plain to my eye that it would take decades of real occupation to make some change to the long term culture of the region. How long did the UK control India?
I fully agree. We should have stayed in Iraq for decades.
hmmm that one broke my sarcasm meter.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 20, 2014, 10:20:45 AM
hmmm that one broke my sarcasm meter.
Shouldn't have. I was being serious.
I guess it falls under the you-break-it-you-bought-it school, but really to me it only makes sense. If we really wanted to terraform the Iraqi culture we would need to be there controlling their society (schools, culture, etc) for a generation. Otherwise you just do a quick regime change and leave. There isn't much middle ground.
One generation would not be enough. My guess would be 3 to 5 generations. If 20 years equals one generation, that would mean 60 to 100 years.
Im still good with kinetic strikes from orbit.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 20, 2014, 01:26:30 PM
Im still good with kinetic strikes from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.
The above is part of the huge academic debate on whether America wants to be an empire, like the British before WWII. Yiu don't see Americans joining up n the foreign service, there is no American Commonwealth...we are poor at building overseas empires. And like Kev said, that is what is needed in Iraq and 100 other places. Otherwise these places are doomed to be crapholes. That said, who he hell would want to possess Iraq, even with the oil? It's a dante-esque level of hell on earth.
Is there a debate on that? How does it go?
Just the fact the US never made Puerto Rico or the Phillipines a state seems to show a lack of desire for empire.
The most successful method of the west seems to be the openness of the internet. When people admire something they tend to emulate it.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 20, 2014, 09:43:21 AM
The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.
I know there are mitigating reasons why it won't happen, but "
extermination" was a word that crossed my mind. Am I going down a bad spiral? :o
Quote from: Boggit on August 20, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 20, 2014, 09:43:21 AM
The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.
I know there are mitigating reasons why it won't happen, but "extermination" was a word that crossed my mind. Am I going down a bad spiral? :o
Nope...i think it's very normal reaction when facing such barbarism
Quote from: Labbug on August 20, 2014, 01:06:59 PM
One generation would not be enough. My guess would be 3 to 5 generations. If 20 years equals one generation, that would mean 60 to 100 years.
Could be. Germany was denazified in less than a generation. Difficult to say whether the same could be said of Iraq.
I agree, let the cluster munitions rain down.
I also think of the Christian murders and think those communities need to be re-established as city states. Let their worst nightmare come to pass, defended non-sunni regions.
Quote from: Boggit on August 20, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 20, 2014, 09:43:21 AM
The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.
I know there are mitigating reasons why it won't happen, but "extermination" was a word that crossed my mind. Am I going down a bad spiral? :o
They seem to be begging us to give them that outcome.
We're not there yet. But there will probably come a time when they'll do something to convince us we have no other choice.
I hope not. As a jew I have a distaste towards extermination and I do not want to become like my worst enemies.
Quote from: Gusington on August 20, 2014, 08:56:12 PM
I hope not. As a jew I have a distaste towards extermination and I do not want to become like my worst enemies.
I know. I'm just not sure how to otherwise deter them.
Don't get me wrong - no one is rushing to do anything like this.
But they seem like the kind of people who are not too interested in reason.
and I have no interest in using reason when dealing with them.
If they are militant fighters I see no ethical problem. It's not like targeting civis.
I doubt ISIS has any qualms hiding behind civilians, like Hamas. They will throw every civilian they can find between themselves and us.At the same time we are not animals like them and must hold ourselves to a bigher authority. It's really way past time for moderate Muslims to rise up and say 'enough' and rein in the militants slaughtering everyone in their path in thr name of all Muslims.
Quote from: Gusington on August 21, 2014, 07:01:33 AM
It's really way past time for moderate Muslims to rise up and say 'enough' and rein in the militants slaughtering everyone in their path in the name of all Muslims.
They do but get killed in the process...and then the rest shuts up. It was the same in Nazi Germany...people who fought the regime were killed and the rest prefered to keep quiet and stay alive. It's not that easy.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 05:10:56 PM
Quote from: Labbug on August 20, 2014, 01:06:59 PM
One generation would not be enough. My guess would be 3 to 5 generations. If 20 years equals one generation, that would mean 60 to 100 years.
Could be. Germany was denazified in less than a generation. Difficult to say whether the same could be said of Iraq.
One could argue the "denazification" of Germany took less than a generation because the "Nazification" of Germany also took less than a generation.
Whereas the decapitating lunacy of middle east has been going on for thousands of years.
IMHO, there is no fix that we can impose. They need to sort the shit out themselves. We shouldn't be there. They need an enlightened tyrant who might cultivate a degree of semi-secular sanity whilst ruthlessly crushing the violent radicals.
Or the Starfury Plan
TM could be put into effect.
^It's worked in the past...people like Saladin.
Quote from: Gusington on August 21, 2014, 07:45:48 PM
^It's worked in the past...people like Saladin.
Don't think you can compare then and now.
The other problem is that there's a lot of Europeans who are fighting with IS....the ones who murdered James Foley are british...
If a strongman suddenly appears in the mideast to raise the masses I can see many rallying to him, regardless of the differnces between now and Saladin's time. He would have to strike the right chord of fundamentalsim and moderation with adash of modernity to make him palatable and thus supported by the west.
^^ Which is how we got Saddam, iirc...
Right now Saddam is a poster boy for.the good old days of "law and order Iraq."
I am still hung up on the idea they are doing ethnic cleansing of minority religions. Given these groups existed, there must have been some tolerance on the part of the old regime. Anyway, what is wrong with city states of various ethnicitys?
The other point, to Gus's point of them hiding behind civilians, is that for them to advance from city to city grabbing territory, they must have been out in the open without human shields. So hitting just the fighters can be done.
Let's hope this is legit 'good news' and not a bunch of 'operators' talking smack
http://www.funker530.com/cag-and-sas-form-small-kill-teams-to-vanquish-islamic-state/
QuoteNow, with an enemy so vile and terrifying, the Western Empire is back to take what is ours as the world cheers.
That part sounds like smack. In fact it sounds like satire.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 22, 2014, 11:50:23 AM
I am still hung up on the idea they are doing ethnic cleansing of minority religions.
Call it for what it is - murder, killing, genocide. I truly hate that euphemistic term "ethnic cleansing". (Not you Mr B, not you... :) O0)
You may have a point, is there a distinction? I thought genocide was killing all the people, whereas ethnic cleansing was just removing them (maybe, maybe not some killing).
its like going from shell shock to ptsd.
same bullshit but a new name.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 05:10:56 PM
Quote from: Labbug on August 20, 2014, 01:06:59 PM
One generation would not be enough. My guess would be 3 to 5 generations. If 20 years equals one generation, that would mean 60 to 100 years.
Could be. Germany was denazified in less than a generation. Difficult to say whether the same could be said of Iraq.
That means that whole of the Middle East now needs to be de-islamified.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10636055_10152640702225280_2260525187752077213_n.jpg?oh=e50daba57f858cbf161b5d4673a740c2&oe=545E954E&__gda__=1416738136_721ddb42527ad31e2696f0abbcf8e4c6)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 02, 2014, 08:15:45 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10636055_10152640702225280_2260525187752077213_n.jpg?oh=e50daba57f858cbf161b5d4673a740c2&oe=545E954E&__gda__=1416738136_721ddb42527ad31e2696f0abbcf8e4c6)
O0
http://www.westernjournalism.com/army-colonel-knows-deal-isis-terrorists/ (http://www.westernjournalism.com/army-colonel-knows-deal-isis-terrorists/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bwz8xnTIgAEIWXw.jpg)
I hear Australia and NATO's Afghan War participants are pissed that the US went directly to Iran to coordinate these strikes and left them out of the loop.
...wait, what? Surely not to Iran... ???
Quote from: JasonPratt on September 06, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
...wait, what? Surely not to Iran... ???
This administration is like Star Wars in an alternate universe: the farce is with them.
from my perspective its delicious irony.
http://www.funker530.com/germany-bans-all-isis-support-after-sharia-police-were-found-patrolling-german-streets/
its always cool when its the people you dont like.
time to ruminate.
I've ruminated.
still good with orbital kinetic strikes.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 14, 2014, 12:25:41 AM
from my perspective its delicious irony.
http://www.funker530.com/germany-bans-all-isis-support-after-sharia-police-were-found-patrolling-german-streets/
its always cool when its the people you dont like.
time to ruminate.
In fairness, Germany has never been a bastion of freedom of intellectual thought after WWII. They tend to error on the side of the "greater good." That squishes neo-nazis from rising to power, but doesn't sit well with Americans whose First Amendment is freedom of speech (and thought).
Rumination, irony...it's all there.
and here we go...
Iraq part 3
QuotePARIS, Sept 15 (KUNA) -- French aircraft have begun carrying out reconnaissance flights over Iraq from the Al-Dhafra base in Abu Dhabi in the UAE in agreement with the Emirati authorities, French television reported.
The flights coincide with a major international conference in Paris to seek a response to the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) or Daash radicals who have been carrying out abuses in Syria and northern Iraq for several months and who claim to have set up a "Caliphate" straddling parts of those two countries.
"France's "I-Tele" television station said that Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian had travelled to the UAE to be at the French airbase there from which the flights are taking place.
Defence Ministry sources confirmed that fighter aircraft had taken off from the UAE base but declined to give details.
"I-Tele" speculated that French strikes against ISIL targets could be imminent as President Francois Hollande said that "the fight against (Daash) is also ours" and he said France "would play its part" in military operations to protect Iraq against this "global threat which requires a global response."
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FL22BzeC.jpg&hash=8c705cdf4af68bd891bed9124ecac8aacf98b9c1)
don't see them flying any white flags, either... >:D
Bring the rain.
I wonder where the French have developed these new cajones...maybe its because France itself, particularly the larger cities, now contain 100s of 1000s of Muslims and they are taking their aggression out overseas instead of bombing Marseilles.
Quote from: Gusington on September 15, 2014, 09:05:44 PM
I wonder where the French have developed these new cajones...maybe its because France itself, particularly the larger cities, now contain 100s of 1000s of Muslims and they are taking their aggression out overseas instead of bombing Marseilles.
More likely it's because they were always jealous that they weren't the biggest dog in the park. Now that we've cut ours off and placed them on a mantle they appear more than happy to do some heavy lifting. Weird, but I guess that's geopolitics. Or something.
all bullshit aside, the French have been pretty active for the last 30 years or so. ever wonder why all that African bullshit went by by?
y'know - the French have been kicking a lot of ass for a bunch of years in some pretty thankless places like West Africa, but they got a lot of stick for not wanting to play in the Iraqi sandbox, and I'm not history hasn't at least partially vindicated them...
I still think they are transfering their collective national anger. It is coming in handy, though.
Heard someone mention on CNBC this morning that Turkey seems to be absent in all of this. They also stated that ISIS is getting a lot of recruits from Turkey.
Quote from: OJsDad on September 16, 2014, 08:06:21 AM
Heard someone mention on CNBC this morning that Turkey seems to be absent in all of this. They also stated that ISIS is getting a lot of recruits from Turkey.
This is yet another civil war within Islam. They do this periodically - actually it's probably more often than not. The problem is that now their movement isn't constrained to horses and camels. As a result we have to be involved because they have made it their business to involve us.
The precedent for how this plays out and how to handle it are pretty clear through history. Unfortunately, it's an ugly history.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 16, 2014, 09:52:13 AM
Quote from: OJsDad on September 16, 2014, 08:06:21 AM
Heard someone mention on CNBC this morning that Turkey seems to be absent in all of this. They also stated that ISIS is getting a lot of recruits from Turkey.
This is yet another civil war within Islam. They do this periodically - actually it's probably more often than not. The problem is that now their movement isn't constrained to horses and camels. As a result we have to be involved because they have made it their business to involve us.
The precedent for how this plays out and how to handle it are pretty clear through history. Unfortunately, it's an ugly history.
There is only one proven way to handle extremist like these. Lets just hope we havent grown to soft yet.
Quote from: Gusington on September 15, 2014, 09:05:44 PM
I wonder where the French have developed these new cajones...maybe its because France itself, particularly the larger cities, now contain 100s of 1000s of Muslims and they are taking their aggression out overseas instead of bombing Marseilles.
From what Sauron tells me France is a tinderbox of anti-muslim tension. He's expecting civil war. It's no accident that the Front National got 25% of the vote in the last election. Sauron's said that the government have played down the terrorist planning to attack the Bastille day parade - hes' the one who killed the Jews in Belgium and wanted to be extradited to France in the hope of being exonerated by their Minister of Justice - Mme Taubira, who has got a lot of flak for excusing the attacks on white French women by Maghrebians - as the French call them.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/belgian-police-hunt-gunman-jewish-museum-murders-brussels
http://www.france24.com/en/20140908-brussels-shooter-mehdi-nemmouche-planned-bastille-day-atrocity-paris/#./?&_suid=14110008139400020945105977330625
That's crazy, Boggit. I knew it was bad, but not that bad.
oh it will get worse longblade.
All over Europe people are getting fed up with the mass migration of backwater, uneducated people from the middle East.
Sweden will be one of the first to experience civil war, once the political elite has brought in enough islamic which will probably happen relatively soon.
In a country with 9 mill swedes, they for some reason choose to import 100.000 muslims from Northern africa and middle East a year.
Quote from: Boggit on September 17, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
Quote from: Gusington on September 15, 2014, 09:05:44 PM
I wonder where the French have developed these new cajones...maybe its because France itself, particularly the larger cities, now contain 100s of 1000s of Muslims and they are taking their aggression out overseas instead of bombing Marseilles.
From what Sauron tells me France is a tinderbox of anti-muslim tension. He's expecting civil war. It's no accident that the Front National got 25% of the vote in the last election. Sauron's said that the government have played down the terrorist planning to attack the Bastille day parade - hes' the one who killed the Jews in Belgium and wanted to be extradited to France in the hope of being exonerated by their Minister of Justice - Mme Taubira, who has got a lot of flak for excusing the attacks on white French women by Maghrebians - as the French call them.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/belgian-police-hunt-gunman-jewish-museum-murders-brussels
http://www.france24.com/en/20140908-brussels-shooter-mehdi-nemmouche-planned-bastille-day-atrocity-paris/#./?&_suid=14110008139400020945105977330625
Perhaps France will be the next battleground. That will be ugly.
So what's the end game with ISIS? Are "we" (as in western democracies) content to drive them out of Iraq? Are we ok with a 2-3 state solution for Iraq? Or is the goal to obliterate ISIS and communicate the message that a fundamentalist caliphate will not be tolerated?
Earlier someone mentioned Turkish silence on the recent events. I would suspect that is connected to the Peshmerga. The Turks probably view a vibrant Peshmerga as a threat that is tantamount to ISIS.
I see on Wikipedia that ISIS goes by ISIL, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. THAT really concerns me. Let's take a look at a map of the Levant:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F1d%2FLevant_%2528orthographic_projection%2529.png%2F1024px-Levant_%2528orthographic_projection%2529.png&hash=9441b0e880fbbddb4bffe18ce0fbc34665f5f1e5)
Anyone else see some serious issues with the size and scope of the territory associated with the Levant?
not enough bombs left in inventory?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 18, 2014, 08:32:50 AM
not enough bombs left in inventory?
+1
They won't be tolerated at all.
A co-worker made an interesting observation. That due to frustration over Ukraine, the US will send the Russians a message via Syria. See that ISIS is eradicated and that the other Syrian rebels become dominant and then overthrow the Assad regime- as a "F-you" to Russia.
Could be interesting to see if that theory/scenario plays out.
QuotePENTAGON DEPLOYS 3RD ADVISER DIVISION TO IRAQ
FORT STEWART, Ga. — A force of approximately 25,000 advisers from the U.S. Army's 3rd Adviser Division is heading to Iraq to not participate in direct ground combat of any kind, the Pentagon announced Thursday.
"Make no mistake, we are in full-on advisement against ISIL in the same way we continue to advise countries against al Qaeda and its affiliates," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said at a press conference, using an acronym for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
While noting the division was comprised mostly of combat troops from its former unit name of 3rd Infantry Division, Kirby cautioned that using this re-structured unit would not lead to advisement-creep.
"It's made up of three Brigade Advisor Teams (BAT). Among these are a mixture of various adviser types including Infantry Advisers, Armor Advisers, Artillery Advisers and Attack Aviation Advisers," Kirby said.
Sources confirmed the new unit was formed after Pentagon leaders realized direct ground combat and trying to impose U.S. will on the enemy had negative effects, and it was better to advise them into submission.
"Geneva conventions do not specifically limit any type of advice, allowing the new 3rd Adviser Division to utilize the Vietnam-era M2 Advice-throwers," Kirby said, also noting the deployment of the M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle and the F-16 Fighting Advisory Falcon.
Although the Pentagon officially declined to give much detail as to what types of advice would be used, sources told Duffel Blog the troops will be authorized to engage with 5.56mm and 7.62mm advice whenever necessary. In some instances and with higher authority, the division could use 105mm and 155mm advice, along with 500lb Joint Direct Advice Munitions.
BWAHAHAAHAHAH gimmi a link for that!
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 19, 2014, 08:36:37 PM
BWAHAHAAHAHAH gimmi a link for that!
you had to ask?! :idiot2: :idiot2:
http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/09/pentagon-advisers-iraq-syria/
oh, I knew it was a Duffleblog bit. Im just to lazy to go get it myself.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 19, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
QuotePENTAGON DEPLOYS 3RD ADVISER DIVISION TO IRAQ
FORT STEWART, Ga. — A force of approximately 25,000 advisers from the U.S. Army's 3rd Adviser Division is heading to Iraq to not participate in direct ground combat of any kind, the Pentagon announced Thursday.
"Make no mistake, we are in full-on advisement against ISIL in the same way we continue to advise countries against al Qaeda and its affiliates," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said at a press conference, using an acronym for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
While noting the division was comprised mostly of combat troops from its former unit name of 3rd Infantry Division, Kirby cautioned that using this re-structured unit would not lead to advisement-creep.
"It's made up of three Brigade Advisor Teams (BAT). Among these are a mixture of various adviser types including Infantry Advisers, Armor Advisers, Artillery Advisers and Attack Aviation Advisers," Kirby said.
Sources confirmed the new unit was formed after Pentagon leaders realized direct ground combat and trying to impose U.S. will on the enemy had negative effects, and it was better to advise them into submission.
"Geneva conventions do not specifically limit any type of advice, allowing the new 3rd Adviser Division to utilize the Vietnam-era M2 Advice-throwers," Kirby said, also noting the deployment of the M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle and the F-16 Fighting Advisory Falcon.
Although the Pentagon officially declined to give much detail as to what types of advice would be used, sources told Duffel Blog the troops will be authorized to engage with 5.56mm and 7.62mm advice whenever necessary. In some instances and with higher authority, the division could use 105mm and 155mm advice, along with 500lb Joint Direct Advice Munitions.
25,000 is a good start. I'd rather see 100, 000. Then we march to the Med.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 20, 2014, 12:22:43 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 19, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
QuotePENTAGON DEPLOYS 3RD ADVISER DIVISION TO IRAQ
FORT STEWART, Ga. — A force of approximately 25,000 advisers from the U.S. Army's 3rd Adviser Division is heading to Iraq to not participate in direct ground combat of any kind, the Pentagon announced Thursday.
"Make no mistake, we are in full-on advisement against ISIL in the same way we continue to advise countries against al Qaeda and its affiliates," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said at a press conference, using an acronym for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
While noting the division was comprised mostly of combat troops from its former unit name of 3rd Infantry Division, Kirby cautioned that using this re-structured unit would not lead to advisement-creep.
"It's made up of three Brigade Advisor Teams (BAT). Among these are a mixture of various adviser types including Infantry Advisers, Armor Advisers, Artillery Advisers and Attack Aviation Advisers," Kirby said.
Sources confirmed the new unit was formed after Pentagon leaders realized direct ground combat and trying to impose U.S. will on the enemy had negative effects, and it was better to advise them into submission.
"Geneva conventions do not specifically limit any type of advice, allowing the new 3rd Adviser Division to utilize the Vietnam-era M2 Advice-throwers," Kirby said, also noting the deployment of the M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle and the F-16 Fighting Advisory Falcon.
Although the Pentagon officially declined to give much detail as to what types of advice would be used, sources told Duffel Blog the troops will be authorized to engage with 5.56mm and 7.62mm advice whenever necessary. In some instances and with higher authority, the division could use 105mm and 155mm advice, along with 500lb Joint Direct Advice Munitions.
25,000 is a good start. I'd rather see 100, 000. Then we march to the Med.
And all yell "Thalassa! Thalassa!" when we get there...
We cannot have an advisement gap!
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 19, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
QuotePENTAGON DEPLOYS 3RD ADVISER DIVISION TO IRAQ
FORT STEWART, Ga. — A force of approximately 25,000 advisers from the U.S. Army's 3rd Adviser Division is heading to Iraq to not participate in direct ground combat of any kind, the Pentagon announced Thursday.
"Make no mistake, we are in full-on advisement against ISIL in the same way we continue to advise countries against al Qaeda and its affiliates," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said at a press conference, using an acronym for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
While noting the division was comprised mostly of combat troops from its former unit name of 3rd Infantry Division, Kirby cautioned that using this re-structured unit would not lead to advisement-creep.
"It's made up of three Brigade Advisor Teams (BAT). Among these are a mixture of various adviser types including Infantry Advisers, Armor Advisers, Artillery Advisers and Attack Aviation Advisers," Kirby said.
Sources confirmed the new unit was formed after Pentagon leaders realized direct ground combat and trying to impose U.S. will on the enemy had negative effects, and it was better to advise them into submission.
"Geneva conventions do not specifically limit any type of advice, allowing the new 3rd Adviser Division to utilize the Vietnam-era M2 Advice-throwers," Kirby said, also noting the deployment of the M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle and the F-16 Fighting Advisory Falcon.
Although the Pentagon officially declined to give much detail as to what types of advice would be used, sources told Duffel Blog the troops will be authorized to engage with 5.56mm and 7.62mm advice whenever necessary. In some instances and with higher authority, the division could use 105mm and 155mm advice, along with 500lb Joint Direct Advice Munitions.
ROFLMAO!!!
"M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle" Classic! :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
It IS a kindness to blast their head from their ass.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 19, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
QuotePENTAGON DEPLOYS 3RD ADVISER DIVISION TO IRAQ
FORT STEWART, Ga. — A force of approximately 25,000 advisers from the U.S. Army's 3rd Adviser Division is heading to Iraq to not participate in direct ground combat of any kind, the Pentagon announced Thursday.
"Make no mistake, we are in full-on advisement against ISIL in the same way we continue to advise countries against al Qaeda and its affiliates," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said at a press conference, using an acronym for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
While noting the division was comprised mostly of combat troops from its former unit name of 3rd Infantry Division, Kirby cautioned that using this re-structured unit would not lead to advisement-creep.
"It's made up of three Brigade Advisor Teams (BAT). Among these are a mixture of various adviser types including Infantry Advisers, Armor Advisers, Artillery Advisers and Attack Aviation Advisers," Kirby said.
Sources confirmed the new unit was formed after Pentagon leaders realized direct ground combat and trying to impose U.S. will on the enemy had negative effects, and it was better to advise them into submission.
"Geneva conventions do not specifically limit any type of advice, allowing the new 3rd Adviser Division to utilize the Vietnam-era M2 Advice-throwers," Kirby said, also noting the deployment of the M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle and the F-16 Fighting Advisory Falcon.
Although the Pentagon officially declined to give much detail as to what types of advice would be used, sources told Duffel Blog the troops will be authorized to engage with 5.56mm and 7.62mm advice whenever necessary. In some instances and with higher authority, the division could use 105mm and 155mm advice, along with 500lb Joint Direct Advice Munitions.
I wish they formed a 1st Mounted Advisers Division (from 1st Cavalry Division) to be sent to the Ukraine.
Quote from: Martok on September 21, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
"M1A1 Armored Humanitarian Relief Vehicle" Classic! :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
Putin: "We invent this strategy!"
ahhhh...... its like taking a gulp of your favorite ice cold beer!
it Hawg time bitches!
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/218510-pentagon-to-deploy-12-a-10s-to-middle-east
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F94fOIkV.jpg&hash=ccfaa764b52fb7d8319ede3ee0f0cae30a5da746)
those fuckers took my Tomcat, they can't take my A-10 away!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4yXuxbB.jpg&hash=ebe48e25ee070ca64ec3bfc8371aca520f7b2c77)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 23, 2014, 12:23:02 AM
those fuckers took my Tomcat, they can't take my A-10 away!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4yXuxbB.jpg&hash=ebe48e25ee070ca64ec3bfc8371aca520f7b2c77)
Amen.
Let it rain on our enemies.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 23, 2014, 12:51:44 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 23, 2014, 12:23:02 AM
those fuckers took my Tomcat, they can't take my A-10 away!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4yXuxbB.jpg&hash=ebe48e25ee070ca64ec3bfc8371aca520f7b2c77)
Amen.
Let it rain on our enemies.
It would be nice to see it used on those it was designed to be used on.
What is the deal with the refugees going to Turkey? Why not protect them with troops inside the border of Syria rather than let them vanish into a NATO country? Seems foolish, you dont know how many are secret extremists.
31 December 406 is the often-repeated date of the crossing of the Rhine by a mixed group of barbarians that included Vandals, Alans and Suebi. The Rhine-crossing transgressed one of the Late Empire's most secure limites or boundaries, a climactic moment in the decline of the Roman Empire that initiated a wave of destruction of Roman cities and the collapse of Roman civic order in northern Gaul, and that occasioned the rise of three usurpers in succession in the province of Britannia; hence the crossing of the Rhine is a marker date in the Migrations Period. -wiki
Emphasis mine.
When put that way I get the heebie jeebies.
I'll defer to your or SoM's opinion on the history, it is not my field. It did strike me as similar.
Quote from: Gusington on September 23, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
When put that way I get the heebie jeebies Hebrew Jeebrews.
fixed it for ya.
The victorious confederates pursued their march, and on the last day of the year, in a season when the waters of the Rhine were most probably frozen, they entered, without opposition, the defenceless provinces of Gaul. This memorable passage of the Suevi, the Vandals, the Alani, and the Burgundians, who never afterwards retreated, may be considered as the fall of the Roman empire in the countries beyond the Alps; and the barriers, which had so long separated the savage and the civilized nations of the earth, were from that fatal moment levelled with the ground.
Gibbon, Edward (2009-02-15). HISTORY OF THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE COMPLETE VOLUMES 1 - 6 [Deluxe Annotated & Illustrated Edition] (Kindle Locations 29454-29458). Northpointe Classics. Kindle Edition.
Ha, first time quoting from the kindle app. It has the location in the book!
I really have to get a copy of Gibbon.
Less than two dolla! There is no excuse for not having it.
http://www.amazon.com/HISTORY-DECLINE-EMPIRE-COMPLETE-VOLUMES-ebook/dp/B00BFFY6T0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411526568&sr=8-1&keywords=gibbon
because that will cheer Gus up going into the winter months. ???
Are you readng the whole thing at once Kev? The copy I have in my cart is 1300 pages :/
It is intimidating. I balked from reading it for a long time. There are many pearls of wisdom in it that make it worth reading. What I don't like is the fragmented format with constant large footnotes.
No, I am nibbling at it.
It might be valuable to remake Syria as a kurdish country. Let the kurds from Turkey migrate stabilizing the region.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on September 24, 2014, 09:33:44 AM
It might be valuable to remake Syria as a kurdish country. Let the kurds from Turkey migrate stabilizing the region.
I've pondered the possibility, too.
The problem, I suspect, will be that rather than emigrating to a new home, they'll simply clamor for their existing region to be added to the new state.
Isn't it funny how enough is rarely ever enough?
Quote from: LongBlade on September 24, 2014, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on September 24, 2014, 09:33:44 AM
It might be valuable to remake Syria as a kurdish country. Let the kurds from Turkey migrate stabilizing the region.
I've pondered the possibility, too.
The problem, I suspect, will be that rather than emigrating to a new home, they'll simply clamor for their existing region to be added to the new state.
Isn't it funny how enough is rarely ever enough?
It doesnt mean anything if they do. Syria is a failed state. It cannot protect the population, it cannot govern. So there is a possibility to remake a state as something new. Turkey is not a failed state.
Somalia is a failed state. Syria is still picking up the garbage and pumping clean water.
Maybe in some areas. They have still been rejected by the people, they do not have control of some regions, they cannot defend the people. I think all 3 count as a failed state.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/09/24/beware-of-the-online-caliphate-is-wants-more-than-syria-and-iraq/
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on September 24, 2014, 08:20:13 PM
Maybe in some areas. They have still been rejected by the people, they do not have control of some regions, they cannot defend the people. I think all 3 count as a failed state.
One could argue that most of the states in the Middle East are failed states to some extent. That would include Iran and Pakistan.
They are failed state because they fail to provide for a majority of populations the basics of what a state should be.
It's all in the definition. Get a specific definition of "failed state" and we can discuss which nations meet it and which don't.
If we accept Star's definition of picking up garbage and having running water, there are swaths of poverty all over the planet that would qualify as failed states.
I'm not saying that's a bad definition. I'm saying how we define it matters.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi466.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr26%2Famanitaplaync%2FPicard_Facepalm_lo_zpsa35bf039.jpg&hash=de1f86a61e728cd372d87914fa66469edb7f8e77)
ouch
Interesting line from a novel:
Tai finally continued. "Capturing Saddam didn't stop the insurgency in Iraq. The Israelis have killed many Palestinian leaders and the movement continues. These are people who haven't dedicated themselves to their leaders, but to their causes. And the only way to defeat a terrorist movement is to defeat the cause." Vaughn had spent two rotations in Iraq and one in Afghanistan while he was in Special Forces before going to Delta Force, and he knew she was right. The U.S. military was waging the wrong type of war in both places—as it had done before in Vietnam.
Mayer, Bob (2012-03-22). Section Eight (Shadow Warriors) (p. 138). Cool Gus Publishing. Kindle Edition.
The context in the story is 2 special forces people about to go into a cave in the Phillipines, nothing to do with the middle east. The quote is still worth considering.
The second page of this article was very interesting to me:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/29/world/meast/isis-fighter-and-defector-interviews/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=2 (http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/29/world/meast/isis-fighter-and-defector-interviews/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=2)
QuoteAbu Omar said ISIS relies heavily on foreign -- including Western -- members to carry out its mission.
"The French, they have so much control -- they're even more extreme than we are," the defector said. "They come from France, but it's as if they have been part of the 'Islamic State' for years."
Abu Omar said while he still dreams of a caliphate in the region, he had been contemplating his escape from ISIS for a while.
"I saw a 70-year-old sheik killed in front of me," he said. "The 'Islamic State' can't continue like this. ... There are a lot of youth who are joining -- 14, 15 years old. Maybe my voice can make them think again."
I'm somewhat surprised to hear about the dominance of western fighters in ISIS. There might be an advantage though to the draw of ISIS in that maybe it will draw the radicals out of their communities in the West into the open in Iraq and Syria where they can be killed, leaving everyone better off. It might even be of (cynical) benefit to the west to allow the Islamic state to survive in an embattled state to act as a sponge for these radicals. Not a pleasant thought for the innocents who have to live there or the people on their borders, however.
A little background on the the possible reason preponderance of French nationals among the foreign fighters in ISIL:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4120/islamization-france
It sounds like France is fast approaching a civil tipping point as far as the battle of French law vs Sharia law. No wonder so many radicalized French Muslims are so eager to hone their organizational battle skills. They may be facing the National Gendarmerie in the near future.
One wonders if the French gov't will eventually bring home some units of the Légion étrangère for any heavy 'police work' involving MOUT so as to keep the regular army and National Gendarmerie out of any truly rough action so the latter two can continue to operate with less resulting controversy. Also, the regular army has a large number of Muslim soldiers so the French gov't may worry about some of those soldiers being willing to act against co-religionists.
Quote from: Staggerwing on September 29, 2014, 06:57:01 AM
A little background on the the possible reason preponderance of French nationals among the foreign fighters in ISIL:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4120/islamization-france
It sounds like France is fast approaching a civil tipping point as far as the battle of French law vs Sharia law. No wonder so many radicalized French Muslims are so eager to hone their organizational battle skills. They may be facing the National Gendarmerie in the near future.
One wonders if the French gov't will eventually bring home some units of the Légion étrangère for any heavy 'police work' involving MOUT so as to keep the regular army and National Gendarmerie out of any truly rough action so the latter two can continue to operate with less resulting controversy. Also, the regular army has a large number of Muslim soldiers so the French gov't may worry about some of those soldiers being willing to act against co-religionists.
Yeah, very disturbing. If France implodes, NATO may be pre-occupied enough so that Putin can push into the Baltic without a NATO military response.
(https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/s720x720/1402175_852820411417778_8975973227205619902_o.jpg)
Is that a stealth zamboni or are you just happy to see me?
Don't they all just look like 'tires' to you?
Quote from: Centurion40 on September 30, 2014, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on September 29, 2014, 06:57:01 AM
A little background on the the possible reason preponderance of French nationals among the foreign fighters in ISIL:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4120/islamization-france
It sounds like France is fast approaching a civil tipping point as far as the battle of French law vs Sharia law. No wonder so many radicalized French Muslims are so eager to hone their organizational battle skills. They may be facing the National Gendarmerie in the near future.
One wonders if the French gov't will eventually bring home some units of the Légion étrangère for any heavy 'police work' involving MOUT so as to keep the regular army and National Gendarmerie out of any truly rough action so the latter two can continue to operate with less resulting controversy. Also, the regular army has a large number of Muslim soldiers so the French gov't may worry about some of those soldiers being willing to act against co-religionists.
Yeah, very disturbing. If France implodes, NATO may be pre-occupied enough so that Putin can push into the Baltic without a NATO military response.
France is not going to implode. It has more Muslims than other countries in Europe, so proportionally its not that much of a difference. No need to panic.
theres only so much couscous and hummus French chefs will put up with.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manteresting.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffield%2Fimage%2Fnail%2F2014%2FOct%2F05%2Fmilitary-planes-cost-per-hour.png&hash=434d858a5fe871fced985d58100132fbae869398)
off the top of my head I'll say that those numbers are a bit wrong.
the Hellfire doesnt cost that much these days and an F-22 is more expensive per flight hour then a B-1.
Wow.
F-22 had a mission capable rate of 62% in 2004, 70% in 2009, and was predicted to reach 85% as the fleet reached 100,000 flight hours.[64][192] Early on, the F-22 required more than 30 hours of maintenance per flight hour and a total cost per flight hour of $44,000; by 2008 it was reduced to 18.1, and 10.5 by 2009; lower than the Pentagon's requirement of 12 maintenance hours per flight hour.[193] When introduced, the F-22 had a Mean Time Between Maintenance (MTBM) of 1.7 hours, short of the required 3.0 hours, but the figure was improved to 3.2 hours in 2012.[64] By 2013, the cost per flight hour had grown to $68,362, over three times as much as the F-16.[194]
With upgrades to keep the B-1 viable, the air force may keep the bomber in service until approximately 2038.[128] Despite upgrades, the B-1 has repair and cost issues resulting from its age. For every flight hour it needs 48.4 hours of repair. The fuel, repairs and other needs for a 12-hour mission costs $720,000 as of 2010.[129] The $63,000 cost per flight hour is, however, less than the $72,000 for the B-52 and the $135,000 of the B-2.[130]
-wiki
Holy crap.
you know you fucked up when even Carter calls you out. :2funny:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/carter-obama-waited-too-long-to-fight-isis/ar-BB89WXW
Saw that earlier...I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 08, 2014, 02:16:44 PM
you know you fucked up when even Carter calls you out. :2funny:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/carter-obama-waited-too-long-to-fight-isis/ar-BB89WXW
I dont know why everyone wants to pretend Carter was a wuss, he put his life on the line with no problem in the navy. He can say he did his duty. How many of these other guys, whose main claim to fame was looking good on camera, can claim the same thing?
As POTUS his foreign policy was horrible and thats what I'm commenting about.
Ok. I did not follow it apart from the hostage crisis so no comment. I do think Obama is spiraling down fast from the first couple years. He seems to be resigned to the lame duck phase.
Star is right: Carter's foreign policy was horrible. Obama makes him look awesome by comparison and we've still got two years for things to get worse.
thats 2 threads where you agreed with me.....
what have you done with the real LB you pod person!?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 08, 2014, 05:51:23 PM
thats 2 threads where you agreed with me.....
what have you done with the real LB you pod person!?
Star, you're like a stuck clock. Even that shows the right time once in a while.
Interesting.
QuoteLike many Americans, Jordan Matson is outraged by the brutality of the Islamic State. But unlike virtually every other American, he decided to take on the militants head-on.
Now, the 28-year-old Racine, Wis., man is recovering in a hospital in northeastern Syria from a shrapnel wound in his foot, the result of a mortar attack by Islamic State fighters in Jazaa, along the Iraqi border.
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/08/jordan-matson-isis_n_5952786.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 08, 2014, 02:16:44 PM
you know you fucked up when even Carter calls you out. :2funny:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/carter-obama-waited-too-long-to-fight-isis/ar-BB89WXW
Love that. That should let him know he is doing it wrong.
Quote from: LongBlade on October 08, 2014, 04:43:16 PM
Star is right: Carter's foreign policy was horrible. Obama makes him look awesome by comparison and we've still got two years for things to get worse.
Actually nothing can top letting Iran fall into the Islamist hands. That kind opened the Pandora's box in that region.
US policy should concentrate on un-ringing that bell.
So theres this report of isil traing to fly 3 fighters.... :2funny:
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 17, 2014, 12:14:42 PM
So theres this report of isil traing to fly 3 fighters.... :2funny:
Don't discount the possibility of some of the foreign recruits having an aviation background in some middle eastern air force or even a European one.
This will be 2 weeks of news for a 15 second lost fight for those idiots.
Please please PLEASE let those MiG-21s go tangle with an F-22 >:D
On the other hand, I found this story disturbing:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-delivers-shock-awe-arms-103000525.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-delivers-shock-awe-arms-103000525.html)
QuoteThe New York Times quoted a U.S. official in June as saying that, in all, 28 Iraqi Army Abrams tanks had been damaged in fighting with the militants, including the five that suffered " full armor penetration" when struck by the anti-tank missiles.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 17, 2014, 05:58:16 PM
Please please PLEASE let those MiG-21s go tangle with an F-22 >:D
I doubt that any IS-hole ringers will be zoomin' up to have at it with the Nato air overhead. More likely they would just hug the ground and try to kamakazi something important to the Bagdhadi gov't- something whose flight time distance at full afterburner is shorter than the flight to target time of the AMRAAMs that are giving chase.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 17, 2014, 06:00:28 PM
On the other hand, I found this story disturbing:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-delivers-shock-awe-arms-103000525.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-delivers-shock-awe-arms-103000525.html)
QuoteThe New York Times quoted a U.S. official in June as saying that, in all, 28 Iraqi Army Abrams tanks had been damaged in fighting with the militants, including the five that suffered " full armor penetration" when struck by the anti-tank missiles.
there was that whole blow up when an RPG got super lucky and penned an M-1 during the occupation. my guess is that they suffered rear engine hits.
I remember that. I think I was over there when it happened. Don't think it was luck. The Russians have been fielding some good AT gear like the RPG29 and RPG22 that can get through at least the side armor of modern tanks. ATGMs are even worse. If IS has them in numbers that's bad.
Looks like the Syrians took care of at least two of those ISIS jets: http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29720384 (http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29720384)
QuoteThe jets were bombed as they landed on the runway of the Jarrah air base in the eastern Aleppo countryside, Mr Zoubi told Syrian TV late on Tuesday. The air force was searching for the third jet, he added.
Probably with a whole lot of collateral damage on the same people we are trying to help over there.
Jihadis get a tough day at the office.
http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR4BE1D#a=13
Damn, that's gotta hurt.
Interesting bit of history.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on October 25, 2014, 10:07:00 AM
Interesting bit of history.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/10/24/sykes-picot-drew-lines-in-the-middle-easts-sand-that-blood-is-washing-away/
I was aware of it and the consequences, though not the name(s) of those responsible.
It comes as no surprise that straight, even lines are artificial and are kept as borders under the most orderly of circumstances. The moment order breaks down, natural geography will interact with national and ethnic forces to realign that neat geometry into more realistic (and defensible), if less attractive and bloodier, boundaries.
Life inside Raqqa in Syria
http://www.raqqa-sl.com/?p=2654
QuoteWomen walk past their bodies without acknowledging their impaled heads on fences for fear of being killed themselves. Elsewhere hate preachers urge children to disobey their parents and join the terror group. Raqqa has remained an ISIS stronghold since the group took control of the city last year. Residents have been subjected to an unrelenting torrent of horror, with many too poor to flee across the border to Turkey. Despite American and Arab forces bombing the city, fighters remain jubilant and have taken control of the population's homes and resources. See the horrific photos after the cut...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-64c43UCsNiU%2FVEtXGR57OvI%2FAAAAAAADwZY%2FNGQNWJWhCdY%2Fs1600%2F1414176035723_wps_29_Raqqa_beheading.jpg%3Fzoom%3D1.5%26amp%3Bresize%3D400%252C221&hash=f71620da3587415f411f63dcfe48ae196f5f7aef)
http://www.special-ops.org/british-sas-delta-forces-saved-kobane-jihadists/
QuoteKobane, not only did not fall, but in next few days the fighters from Islamic State were evicted from all city neighbors under their control. In the air was a question – What happened? And answer for that mystery is revealed this weekend.
The British troops called in several air strikes, killing dozens of IS fighters and halting their advance towards Kobane, just inside the Syrian border.
In one attack, SAS guided warplanes into an area where IS fi ghters were massing for an attack The US jets dropped several 500lb bombs into the area, killing and injuring dozens of fighters.
In another strike the SAS pinpointed the location of a large convoy of tanks, armoured personnel carriers and ammo trucks heading towards the area. An SAS team hiding in the surrounding hills directed two US combat planes into the area.
The pilots then swooped on the convoy, destroying the vehicles with missiles and bombs. One source last night said: "The SAS deployed to the area around Kobane a couple of weeks ago and have done themselves proud.
"The US pilots think they are absolutely great. They have manoeuvred themselves into some great positions so they can call in air strikes against IS militants.
"They have done this at no small risk to themselves. If their positions had been identified by IS they would have been lucky to escape with their lives. "The conditions for the British soldiers have been very testing."
"Their role in the battle for Kobane probably saved hundreds of lives"
One source
"It's been extremely hot, they were living on meagre rations and had to be sparing with water.
"But their role in the battle for Kobane probably saved hundreds of lives." The SAS have mainly been active in Iraq over the last two months but some members of the elite unit were sent into Syria when Kobane looked as though it might fall into IS hands.
Sources added that US Delta Force troops and the SAS were able to cut off flanking assaults by IS militants trying to encircle the town.
"Every time the jihadis tried a move, the guys would zap them. It was brilliant," a US source added. Last week footage emerged of a devastating Western air strike on IS thugs who had planted their flag on a hilltop overlooking Kobane.
^ Awesome. Go SAS!
22 Regiment is Da Bomb.
US General writing about Iraq and ISIS
QuoteIn Iraq, US verging on insanity
As a senior commander in Iraq and Afghanistan, I lost 80 soldiers. Despite their sacrifices, and those of thousands more, all we have to show for it are two failed wars. This fact eats at me every day, and Veterans Day is tougher than most.
As veterans, we tell ourselves it was all worth it. The grim butchery of war hovers out of sight and out of mind, an unwelcome guest at the dignified ceremonies. Instead, we talk of devotion to duty and noble sacrifice. We salute the soldiers at Omaha Beach, the sailors at Leyte Gulf, the airmen in the skies over Berlin and the Marines at the Chosin Reservoir, and we're not wrong to do so. The military thrives on tales of valor. In our volunteer armed forces, such stirring examples keep bringing young men and women through the recruiters' door. As we used to say in the First Cavalry Division, they want to "live the legend." In the military, we love our legends.
Here's a legend that's going around these days. In 2003, the United States invaded Iraq and toppled a dictator. We botched the follow-through, and a vicious insurgency erupted. Four years later, we surged in fresh troops, adopted improved counterinsurgency tactics and won the war. And then dithering American politicians squandered the gains. It's a compelling story. But it's just that – a story.
The surge in Iraq did not "win" anything. It bought time. It allowed us to kill some more bad guys and feel better about ourselves. But in the end, shackled to a corrupt, sectarian government in Baghdad and hobbled by our fellow Americans' unwillingness to commit to a fight lasting decades, the surge just forestalled today's stalemate. Like a handful of aspirin gobbled by a fevered patient, the surge cooled the symptoms. But the underlying disease didn't go away. The remnants of al-Qaida in Iraq and the Sunni insurgents we battled for more than eight years simply re-emerged this year as the Islamic State, also known as ISIS.
The surge legend is soothing, especially for military commanders like me. We can convince ourselves that we did our part, and a few more diplomats or civilian leaders should have done theirs. Similar myths no doubt comforted Americans who fought under the command of Robert E. Lee in the Civil War or William C. Westmoreland in Vietnam. But as a three-star general who spent four years trying to win this thing – and failing – I now know better.
We did not understand the enemy, a guerrilla network embedded in a quarrelsome, suspicious civilian population. We didn't understand our own forces, which are built for rapid, decisive conventional operations, not lingering, ill-defined counterinsurgencies. We're made for Desert Storm, not Vietnam. As a general, I got it wrong. Like my peers, I argued to stay the course, to persist and persist, to "clear/hold/build" even as the "hold" stage stretched for months, and then years, with decades beckoning. We backed ourselves season by season into a long-term counterinsurgency in Iraq, then compounded it by doing likewise in Afghanistan. The American people had never signed up for that.
What went wrong in Iraq and in Afghanistan isn't the stuff of legend. It won't bring people into the recruiting office or ever make for good speeches on Veterans Day. Reserve those honors for the brave men and women who bear the burdens of combat.
That said, those who served deserve an accounting from the generals. What happened? How? And, especially, why? It has to be a public assessment, nonpartisan and not left to the military. (We tend to grade ourselves on the curve.) Something along the lines of the 9/11 Commission is in order. We owe that to our veterans and our fellow citizens.
Such an accounting couldn't be more timely. Today we are hearing some, including those in uniform, argue for a robust ground offensive against the Islamic State in Iraq. Air attacks aren't enough, we're told. Our Kurdish and Iraqi Army allies are weak and incompetent. Only another surge can win the fight against this dire threat. Really? If insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I think we're there.
As a veteran, and a general who learned hard lessons in two lost campaigns, I'd like to suggest an alternative. Maybe an incomplete and imperfect effort to contain the Islamic State is as good as it gets. Perhaps the best we can or should do is to keep it busy, "degrade" its forces, harry them or kill them, and seek the long game at the lowest possible cost. It's not a solution that is likely to spawn a legend. But in the real world, it just may well give us something better than another defeat.
The New York Times
Daniel P. Bolger, the author of "Why We Lost," retired from the United States Army last year as a lieutenant general.
I have long believed that we merely got lucky in Iraq when the chiefs decided to go with us.
There were nowhere near enough troops to properly occupy the country. Our military is a first-class door kicker. We can take down any nation's military. Keeping the ground, however, is a different matter. What is needed is an occupational force capable of terraforming the cultural and political landscape of a nation over the course of a couple of decades. Without the ability and will to do that, we might as well not even try.
An American Empire?
Quote from: Gusington on November 12, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
An American Empire?
Not necessary.
While we had troops posted in Germany for decades (and still do in Korea), one can hardly argue we were (are) an imperial power. Once Germany (and Italy and Japan) figured out how to behave in polite society again the training wheels came off.
In fact, it has been quite the opposite of an empire. More the Mouse that Roared than The Raj.
that said, the Doonesbury storyline when Duke was the Viceroy of Al Amok was pretty hilarious
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 12, 2014, 06:47:08 AM
US General writing about Iraq and ISIS
QuoteIn Iraq, US verging on insanity
As a senior commander in Iraq and Afghanistan, I lost 80 soldiers. Despite their sacrifices, and those of thousands more, all we have to show for it are two failed wars. This fact eats at me every day, and Veterans Day is tougher than most.
As veterans, we tell ourselves it was all worth it. The grim butchery of war hovers out of sight and out of mind, an unwelcome guest at the dignified ceremonies. Instead, we talk of devotion to duty and noble sacrifice. We salute the soldiers at Omaha Beach, the sailors at Leyte Gulf, the airmen in the skies over Berlin and the Marines at the Chosin Reservoir, and we're not wrong to do so. The military thrives on tales of valor. In our volunteer armed forces, such stirring examples keep bringing young men and women through the recruiters' door. As we used to say in the First Cavalry Division, they want to "live the legend." In the military, we love our legends.
Here's a legend that's going around these days. In 2003, the United States invaded Iraq and toppled a dictator. We botched the follow-through, and a vicious insurgency erupted. Four years later, we surged in fresh troops, adopted improved counterinsurgency tactics and won the war. And then dithering American politicians squandered the gains. It's a compelling story. But it's just that – a story.
The surge in Iraq did not "win" anything. It bought time. It allowed us to kill some more bad guys and feel better about ourselves. But in the end, shackled to a corrupt, sectarian government in Baghdad and hobbled by our fellow Americans' unwillingness to commit to a fight lasting decades, the surge just forestalled today's stalemate. Like a handful of aspirin gobbled by a fevered patient, the surge cooled the symptoms. But the underlying disease didn't go away. The remnants of al-Qaida in Iraq and the Sunni insurgents we battled for more than eight years simply re-emerged this year as the Islamic State, also known as ISIS.
The surge legend is soothing, especially for military commanders like me. We can convince ourselves that we did our part, and a few more diplomats or civilian leaders should have done theirs. Similar myths no doubt comforted Americans who fought under the command of Robert E. Lee in the Civil War or William C. Westmoreland in Vietnam. But as a three-star general who spent four years trying to win this thing – and failing – I now know better.
We did not understand the enemy, a guerrilla network embedded in a quarrelsome, suspicious civilian population. We didn't understand our own forces, which are built for rapid, decisive conventional operations, not lingering, ill-defined counterinsurgencies. We're made for Desert Storm, not Vietnam. As a general, I got it wrong. Like my peers, I argued to stay the course, to persist and persist, to "clear/hold/build" even as the "hold" stage stretched for months, and then years, with decades beckoning. We backed ourselves season by season into a long-term counterinsurgency in Iraq, then compounded it by doing likewise in Afghanistan. The American people had never signed up for that.
What went wrong in Iraq and in Afghanistan isn't the stuff of legend. It won't bring people into the recruiting office or ever make for good speeches on Veterans Day. Reserve those honors for the brave men and women who bear the burdens of combat.
That said, those who served deserve an accounting from the generals. What happened? How? And, especially, why? It has to be a public assessment, nonpartisan and not left to the military. (We tend to grade ourselves on the curve.) Something along the lines of the 9/11 Commission is in order. We owe that to our veterans and our fellow citizens.
Such an accounting couldn't be more timely. Today we are hearing some, including those in uniform, argue for a robust ground offensive against the Islamic State in Iraq. Air attacks aren't enough, we're told. Our Kurdish and Iraqi Army allies are weak and incompetent. Only another surge can win the fight against this dire threat. Really? If insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I think we're there.
As a veteran, and a general who learned hard lessons in two lost campaigns, I'd like to suggest an alternative. Maybe an incomplete and imperfect effort to contain the Islamic State is as good as it gets. Perhaps the best we can or should do is to keep it busy, "degrade" its forces, harry them or kill them, and seek the long game at the lowest possible cost. It's not a solution that is likely to spawn a legend. But in the real world, it just may well give us something better than another defeat.
The New York Times
Daniel P. Bolger, the author of "Why We Lost," retired from the United States Army last year as a lieutenant general.
Thanks for the post.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p600x600/10384519_10154892471135298_744136483059576417_n.jpg?oh=e6c58b70edb700b0e48afcbf43851bf9&oe=550A3581&__gda__=1423443012_72d17c989979da3b1c182c3813d96485)
:o :o :o
not suprised slaak is among them.
Yeah, it took me a couple of reads of that headline to figure out somebody wasn't punking him.
That's some hard news right there. :o
Meanwhile, I learned today (as an aside while reading on something else) that the Mosul area is historically important for more than being a strategic crossroads.
It was also the local region for Ninevah, capital of one of the Assyrian, or I guess rather the Neo-Assyrian Empire.
So a Syrian militant group would want to take the area for reasons of historical connection and symbolic meaning.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1507087_1543484262562468_2840486274697836718_n.jpg?oh=cd073d78b5a4a9786bc198192eefa6cb&oe=5507CFEB&__gda__=1425665122_d4a20c1e4402e6577e959a1fa998ec4a)
^^ Iron Man couldn't do it much better. :smitten:
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 16, 2014, 02:34:38 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1507087_1543484262562468_2840486274697836718_n.jpg?oh=cd073d78b5a4a9786bc198192eefa6cb&oe=5507CFEB&__gda__=1425665122_d4a20c1e4402e6577e959a1fa998ec4a)
Awesome! I love it!
That is awesome!
awesome until it drags us into another war in a country that hates us. ::)
wheres LeMay when you need him.
^This from the guy who fears no international evil. Inconceivable.
fear it... no. but it would be nice if our society would let us deal with it in a way that it deserves.
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 09, 2014, 12:16:59 PM
Meanwhile, I learned today (as an aside while reading on something else) that the Mosul area is historically important for more than being a strategic crossroads.
It was also the local region for Ninevah, capital of one of the Assyrian, or I guess rather the Neo-Assyrian Empire.
So a Syrian militant group would want to take the area for reasons of historical connection and symbolic meaning.
Depends on what historical connection that might be.
Remember that the Taliban douchebags wrecked a bunch of ancient historically significant statues in Asia because it was an affront to their Islamic beliefs. ::)
^^ Good point. I wouldn't expect them to leave the Ninevah reconstruction ruins alone, across the river.
Still, Baghdad connected thematically to Babylon, downriver, and that didn't seem to be a problem when the Muslims took over long ago.
This plumbers old used truck wound up in ISIS hands, who'd have thunk??
http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.632828 (http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.632828)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.632836.1419073527%21%2Fimage%2F2349077637.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Flandscape_640%2F2349077637.jpg&hash=d79ffeaf8de9b37a4ce3a41a4d844cf9b6c15f12)
Ouch!
This must be the exception to the rule that negative attention is better than no attention.
dunno.... I bet that 23mm unclogs your toilet.!
there's an article about him in USA Today or something. Apparently he's gotten some hate mail from people so stupid as to think he would've donated his truck to them
^HAHA are you kidding me
Quote from: Gusington on December 20, 2014, 04:30:42 PM
^HAHA are you kidding me
Never underestimate the stupidity of people.
http://www.galvestondailynews.com/free/article_5f269ed2-8557-11e4-8588-37eb16686b02.html
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 20, 2014, 04:04:04 PM
there's an article about him in USA Today or something. Apparently he's gotten some hate mail from people so stupid as to think he would've donated his truck to them
Thank goodness someone took the time to blur the faces of the guys in the truck. Otherwise they might have had to cope with a bit of uncouth correspondence as well. ::)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 20, 2014, 03:29:42 PM
dunno.... I bet that 23mm unclogs your toilet.!
... don't give them more ideas ;)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 20, 2014, 03:29:42 PM
dunno.... I bet that 23mm unclogs your toilet.!
With an a-hole operating it?
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 20, 2014, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 20, 2014, 04:04:04 PM
there's an article about him in USA Today or something. Apparently he's gotten some hate mail from people so stupid as to think he would've donated his truck to them
Thank goodness someone took the time to blur the faces of the guys in the truck. Otherwise they might have had to cope with a bit of uncouth correspondence as well. ::)
Looks like it was originally some ISIS propaganda photo so they probabably did it.
Yeah, I figured that and I know why. It just makes them look so lame: 'bad-ass holy warriors' afraid mommy might find out what they're up to now.
Was there ever an explanation as to how that guy's truck ended up all the way over there?
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 21, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Yeah, I figured that and I know why. It just makes them look so lame: 'bad-ass holy warriors' afraid mommy might find out what they're up to.
It's actual more sinister than that. A lot of the ISIS fighters have come from Western Europe and want to go back eventually, and the Europeans are putting a lot of effort into finding out who they are. Lots of people in Europe are very concerned about all these young radicals going to the Middle East to get their training and then coming back to sow violence at home. Given that, it makes sense that a guy who wants to return to the UK or France or wherever would try to keep his face unknown.
Right, that's what I was referring to- for example the FBI's work trying to use facial recog to ID the English accented IS-hole who beheaded the first hostage. Still, it must send some kind of message to potential recruits that eventually the 'Caliphate' will end up losing so better not let anyone know you were ever a part of it.
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 21, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Was there ever an explanation as to how that guy's truck ended up all the way over there?
Brant has a link to a USAToday story a few posts up.
The news article I read said the guy sold his truck to an outfit that was supposed to remove the logo. Clearly that never happened. After that the chain of custody isn't so clear, though I have a sneaky suspicion it's a lot clearer now to some folks whose job is to take an interest in such things.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 20, 2014, 04:39:27 PM
Quote from: Gusington on December 20, 2014, 04:30:42 PM
^HAHA are you kidding me
Never underestimate the stupidity of people.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.
One of the most recent topics in this thread was about wondering what ISIL (or ISIS, whichever) would do to the remains of Ninevah now that they've taken Mosul.
Blow it up. (http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/isis-detonates-large-parts-nineveh-historical-wall/)
Of course. (http://www.english.shafaaq.com/index.php/security/13060-isis-resumes-bombing-historical-effects-and-destroys-the-historic-wall-of-nineveh)
What the hell is a "Crime against human culture"? And can we get Justin Bieber charged, too?
(Getting back to the main thread from how the Jordanians got into the anti-ISIS war (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=12602.0)...)
ISIS today (or possibly yesterday) sent a private message to the family of one of their surviving captives, 26-year-old aid worker Kayla Jean Mueller, that they don't have to worry about anyone paying her ransom (or whatever) anymore because she's dead now.
Executed? No, they're saying she died in a Jordanian air strike. ::)
Oh those Jordanians, it's all their fault, see, blame them for it. (If that's even what happened. State Dept confirms she's dead but no word released yet on how exactly.)
"No matter how long it takes, the United States will find and bring to justice the terrorists who are responsible for Kayla's captivity and death," the president said.
(I'd post links to the AP, but I'm getting this through AOL/Compuserve which doesn't provide links except to their own site.)
I think that I'd rather be killed in an air strike, than being decapitated on Youtube.
I also think that I'd like my government to start funnelling arms and ammo to the Pershmerga.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2d%2FPershmega_near_Syria_-_June_23%252C_2014.jpg%2F800px-Pershmega_near_Syria_-_June_23%252C_2014.jpg&hash=a352b035f13a2bbf6ef9f9704c6d83f2511cabcd)
And not just leave it up to the Germans, Italians and French.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshmerga
I don't want to mock, but is there any good reason why that guy around the middle of the front line has his kneepads on backwards? And not even entirely backwards? :o
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2Fce%2Fcec6e5946ca6c67dab9a127dd74afd200eda8f503142575630de9c301b800d1b.jpg&hash=5a56f24050c3eb51f6e30b9966cf0a74d788fe8b)
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 11, 2015, 09:00:15 AM
I don't want to mock, but is there any good reason why that guy around the middle of the front line has his kneepads on backwards? And not even entirely backwards? :o
Well look at him!! They didn't even give him a rifle!
Perhaps he's the "special" nephew of Masoud Barzani....
I would guess (from personal experience) that because the straps on those kneepads are very uncomfortable, that he made the decision to alter his uniform for comfort.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10675671_385301091617338_3980599612106936044_n.jpg?oh=cc462e125a4d9497f917ba6c4fdb7a1b&oe=55828D85&__gda__=1434953947_ab366afcf05905ef040723dabd49e962)
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/08/europe/french-tv-network-cyberattack/index.html
Anti ISIS vigilantes.
http://rt.com/usa/262961-anti-isis-volunteers-florida/
Iraq losing equipment to Islamic State at staggering rate
"the conclusion is simple: The United States is effectively supplying Islamic State with tools of war the militant group cannot otherwise hope to acquire from its patrons."
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/06/02/dude-wheres-my-humvee-iraqi-equipment-losses-to-islamic-state-are-out-of-control/ (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/06/02/dude-wheres-my-humvee-iraqi-equipment-losses-to-islamic-state-are-out-of-control/)
[sarcasm] Weapons suppliers: "Hot damn, we can't ship product fast enough. Iraq is gold! We arm all sides!" [/sarcasm]
New strategy:
1.) Continue arming Iraq at an even faster rate;
2.) Attach small explosives with a receiver to all weapons and larger ones to vehicles.
3.) Iraq loses some more battles by throwing down their weapons and running away.
4.) Profit.
Or treat all the weapons with an inert designer virus that causes extreme and painful elephantiasis after being activated by aerial spraying of a trigger agent. We can then spray where and when we want, just like crop dusting.
It's hard to cause much mischief when you have to carry your ball sack around in a wheelbarrow, trying to avoid every bump.
The article had me at "Dude, where's my Humvee?" but the quote:
QuoteIt's a surreal state of affairs in which American weaponry is being sent into Iraq to destroy American weaponry previously sent into Iraq. If a new sequel to Catch-22 were to be written, this would be the plot line.
made me squeal.
Quote from: Uberhaus on June 02, 2015, 08:55:19 PM
The article had me at "Dude, where's my Humvee?" but the quote: QuoteIt's a surreal state of affairs in which American weaponry is being sent into Iraq to destroy American weaponry previously sent into Iraq. If a new sequel to Catch-22 were to be written, this would be the plot line.
made me squeal.
Yeah, i was going to quote that. It was too depressing, i decided to let people read it without me bringing it up. :buck2:
Starting a war is like deciding to ride a crocodile. You better have a damn good plan for getting off.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 02, 2015, 06:39:30 PM
Or treat all the weapons with an inert designer virus that causes extreme and painful elephantiasis after being activated by aerial spraying of a trigger agent. We can then spray where and when we want, just like crop dusting.
It's hard to cause much mischief when you have to carry your ball sack around in a wheelbarrow, trying to avoid every bump.
Brilliant! >:D
Tell your kids. Apparently selfies can kill, especially if you're ISIS. Post a friendly shot of yourself in front of your terrorist headquarters, and you may receive a few JDAMs within 24 hours:
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html)
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 05, 2015, 08:55:10 AM
Tell your kids. Apparently selfies can kill, especially if you're ISIS. Post a friendly shot of yourself in front of your terrorist headquarters, and you may receive a few JDAMs within 24 hours:
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html)
The pic in question, and a video of the aftermath, would have pushed that story over the top.
Must be a dream job for teen-aged intel Airmen so comb social media for a living.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 05, 2015, 08:55:10 AM
Tell your kids. Apparently selfies can kill, especially if you're ISIS. Post a friendly shot of yourself in front of your terrorist headquarters, and you may receive a few JDAMs within 24 hours:
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html)
That's beautiful. Its like Van Gogh work for DoD.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 05, 2015, 08:55:10 AM
Tell your kids. Apparently selfies can kill, especially if you're ISIS. Post a friendly shot of yourself in front of your terrorist headquarters, and you may receive a few JDAMs within 24 hours:
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/moron-terrorist-takes-selfie-front-isis-headquarters-air-104558006.html)
Ha! That's both hilarious and awesome. O0
You gotta love the author's sense of humor too:
QuoteIn a very real story that we assure you did not originate from The Onion...
QuoteAccording to Air Force General Hawk Carlisle (which is a perfect name for an Air Force General we must say)
;D
According to the President
Quote"We don't yet have a complete strategy."
. Is, however, the Pentagons fault for not giving him a plan yet. All of this is in relation to training and equipping the Iraqi military, not with the US strategy to combat ISIS.
You can train and equip ask you want, but unless you can transplant some cajones and a "give a shit" attitude into the Iraqis, it won't matter.
Meanwhile Erdogan and his homies got spanked in the Turkish elections while the pro-Kurdish party won enough votes to have a say in things for the first time in like, forever. I wonder how them apples will affect things in the region.
Um...'not well' for $100.00, please. Because nothing good happens in the Mideast. You can drop cotton candy and teddy bears over Mosul and they'll become weaponized.
THEY ARE PAGAN ARTIFACTS FROM THE DECADENT WEST AND INSULT OUR HONOR WARRRGARRRBLE!!
Quote from: Gusington on June 09, 2015, 07:51:05 PM
Um...'not well' for $100.00, please. Because nothing good happens in the Mideast. You can drop cotton candy and teddy bears over Mosul and they'll become weaponized.
Ah, yes. The infamous Mark 27 "Fairy Floss." Everyone worries about the pink ones, but it's that rarely seen green one that is the worst.
Fairy floss is different.
Quote from: Gusington on June 10, 2015, 12:51:22 PM
Fairy floss is different.
IIRC "fairy floss" is Bri'ish for "cotton candy" or Bob's your moustachioed uncle.
I thought fairy floss was Star's undies.
I figured Star as the type to go commando.
There are chafing concerns.
That's what the aveeno is for.
Secondarily, yes.
Your right Gus, this is here would help with the chaffing
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqvhZU0IcAAEHpk.jpg)
^It certainly helps me. I like the green bottle. Minty feeling.