Hello.
I'm visiting relatives and on my phone so must be very brief, but I wanted it to be known as soon as possible that I no longer rate Rock Paper Shotgun as a gaming website with any integrity in light of recent events.
I'm not trying to be a drama queen or anything, but I have argued quite vehemently, here, in defense of RPS several times in the past and I just want to demonstrate that I have more integrity than those I've spoken in favour of.
That will have to be all for now.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 23, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
Hello.
I'm visiting relatives and on my phone so must be very brief, but I wanted it to be known as soon as possible that I no longer rate Rock Paper Shotgun as a gaming website with any integrity in light of recent events.
I'm not trying to be a drama queen or anything, but I have argued quite vehemently, here, in defense of RPS several times in the past and I just want to demonstrate that I have more integrity than those I've spoken in favour of.
That will have to be all for now.
Apology accepted. O:-)
Seriously though...look forward to hearing what happened. Hope its nothing too major.
WTF you just can't come into a bar and yell "I hate that mofo!" and then leave...we need answers!
im sure Huw will elaborate when he has a proper net connection but heres the main thread
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?13695-The-Growing-and-Highly-Abusive-Marriage-of-Gaming-and-Media/page2
seems all par for the course until page 2 when some old thread gets dug up - long story short - one of the RPS writers slept with a game developer and now has his integrity called into question, from what i can gather
apparently shes a deeply unpleasant person but is been defended elsewhere on the net, namely twitter by senior RPS writers because, well, it would make their own writer look like a twat
theres a bit of this
Quinn shouldn't really be any exception based on that. She seems like a pretty horrible person - not so much for the 'cheating on her boyfriend' thing (although that does affect my personal opinion of her) but for the allegations that she manipulated and destroyed a project designed to get women interested in games simply so that she could run her own similar project. Also threatening TotalBiscuit with DMCA takedown notices if he dared to review her game is blatant abuse the DMCA system and threatens whatever is left of 'games journalism'.
some of this
Again, might I remind you that this very forum has engaged in the exact same behaviour of condemnation back when it suited their interests. Do most of these people really give a shit about 'games journalism'? Christ no, games journalism has been shit for ages. No doubt plenty of people are out for character assassination. And yet we're more than happy to indulge in the same goddamn hatred if, for example, that person was a misogynist or something like that. Again I refer you to the Josh Mattingly case, where a man who was depressed and suffering alcohol abuse sent inappropriate comments to a female game dev through a private message. He was attacked even on this very forum for that, and when I pointed out that he was depressed and an alcoholic, which might explain some of his behaviour (but not excuse it), I was shouted down that it was irrelevant. Therefore, why should it matter if Quinn was depressed?
and a bit of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwD8HR-8Dow&app=desktop
oooo and this
ZOMG, more Zoe Quinn? Why is it that saying Zoe Quinn did some unethical things for publicity and self-promotion makes you a misogynist. On the other hand how is calling all the trolls involved in this debacle misogynists helping anything.
The fact of the matter is there is a legitimate group of people concerned that professional/ethical standards have been breached.
Evidence is piling up that Zoe Quinn lied about being doxxed, slept with a member of the video game press, ruined a game jam (that was designed promote women in the industry no less) because it competed with her own game jam, and lied about being harassed by internet trolls/misogynists to get publicity.
If people still think this is entirely a plot by internet trolls to discredit Zoe Quinn and promote misogyny well you're no better than the people saying that the video game media is entirely corrupted by the agendas of SJW's and the like.
I am a feminist and I am upset because this is a setback.
RPS of all places should be a place where a reasonable discussion about this can take place and not just writing everything off as misogynistic bullshit.
Whoa. A lot more than I bargained for, there.
I just want to write and read about games. I really don't understand all this feminist crap and bickering.
MYSO...MISOGE.....MYZZ........(that's hard to spell)
WOMAN HATER!!!!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 04:30:06 PM
I just want to write and read about games. I really don't understand all this feminist crap and bickering.
poetry that is sir
That is a lot of drama on those RPS pages that I am too lazy to sift through. I don't quite understand all the drama either. Good to see that Huw is still here though :)
Thanks Gus! This is an oasis of calm. :)
Geek thanks for providing the summary. The drama has spread to - and, indeed, involves - a large range of gaming websites. It's insane on reddit right now, not to mention 4chan (surprisingly a voice of reason in this).
TotalBiscuit posted a very reasonable piece about it and was immediately flamed by the social justice fuckwits.
I wish I was at home while this is going on!
If 4chan is a voice of reason, the argument is a waste of time. :)
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 23, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
Thanks Gus! This is an oasis of calm. :)
Geek thanks for providing the summary. The drama has spread to - and, indeed, involves - a large range of gaming websites. It's insane on reddit right now, not to mention 4chan (surprisingly a voice of reason in this).
TotalBiscuit posted a very reasonable piece about it and was immediately flamed by the social justice fuckwits.
I wish I was at home while this is going on!
One of the benefits of being irrelevant. Grogheads avoids all of the fuss and high drama. I can see it now...Housewives of Grogheads.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 04:30:06 PM
I just want to write and read about games. I really don't understand all this feminist crap and bickering.
Quoted for truth!!! 8)
Heh. I don't spend much time on the internet, but 90% of it is here or at BMS's forums.
Therefore, I'm completely oblivious to everything you guys are talking about. I do like a good ole fashioned forum purse fight from time to time. But I find the SimHQ DCS forum is pretty good for getting that fix.
One would think it would be almost impossible to interject drama, or even to have a good solid purse fight, over computer gaming of all things. :idiot2:
Ok, so I tried to read through the first two pages of the linked thread, and it is like it isn't even written in English to me. I'm not even trying to be funny. I have no idea what they are talking about.
Sorry, you guys lost me on this one.
And WTF is a "game jam"?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 23, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
Thanks Gus! This is an oasis of calm. :)
Geek thanks for providing the summary. The drama has spread to - and, indeed, involves - a large range of gaming websites. It's insane on reddit right now, not to mention 4chan (surprisingly a voice of reason in this).
TotalBiscuit posted a very reasonable piece about it and was immediately flamed by the social justice fuckwits.
I wish I was at home while this is going on!
One of the benefits of being irrelevant. Grogheads avoids all of the fuss and high drama. I can see it now...Housewives of Grogheads.
I disagree. Grogheads is not irrelevant. More likely the reason is that the average game site caters to immature teens, probably due to their buying power.
Waitasec. RPS, 4chan, feminists? Sounds like a mighty train wreck! I tried going through that thread, but I also couldn't get what winding everyone up.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fduty_calls.png&hash=893fedb0fa7c66e1a71ea9063375e464d6519cdb)
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 23, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 23, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
Thanks Gus! This is an oasis of calm. :)
Geek thanks for providing the summary. The drama has spread to - and, indeed, involves - a large range of gaming websites. It's insane on reddit right now, not to mention 4chan (surprisingly a voice of reason in this).
TotalBiscuit posted a very reasonable piece about it and was immediately flamed by the social justice fuckwits.
I wish I was at home while this is going on!
One of the benefits of being irrelevant. Grogheads avoids all of the fuss and high drama. I can see it now...Housewives of Grogheads.
I disagree. Grogheads is not irrelevant. More likely the reason is that the average game site caters to immature teens, probably due to their buying power.
im thinking JH has the buying power of most average game sites
Quote from: Toonces on August 23, 2014, 06:42:42 PM
And WTF is a "game jam"?
Its where game developers, almost always indie devs, get together and and try and create a game in a set amount of time. From the ones I've seen on twitch, somewhere between 24-72 hours.
^ That actually sounds pretty cool.
Ok, so were they making a reality TV show about game jams or something? Funny, I might actually watch something like that.
Quote from: endfire79 on August 23, 2014, 06:58:19 PM
Waitasec. RPS, 4chan, feminists? Sounds like a mighty train wreck! I tried going through that thread, but I also couldn't get what winding everyone up.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fduty_calls.png&hash=893fedb0fa7c66e1a71ea9063375e464d6519cdb)
Immediate party foul assessed for using a cartoon, that while funny, is forever linked with Hairog dodging questions over and over after making ridiculous political pronouncements.
I've checked carefully and nothing in those threads has left me smarter.
Moving on.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
meh. not really relevant news for me.
This was blowing up on reddit earlier in the week. A friend a work sent me the link, and like Toonces, I have no effing clue what it's all about.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 23, 2014, 07:50:19 PM
Quote from: endfire79 on August 23, 2014, 06:58:19 PM
Waitasec. RPS, 4chan, feminists? Sounds like a mighty train wreck! I tried going through that thread, but I also couldn't get what winding everyone up.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fduty_calls.png&hash=893fedb0fa7c66e1a71ea9063375e464d6519cdb)
Immediate party foul assessed for using a cartoon, that while funny, is forever linked with Hairog dodging questions over and over after making ridiculous political pronouncements.
Oops, my bad. It wasn't my original intention.
I just found it summed up RPS (some of it), 4chan (all of it) in one image. There's some irrelevant, hostile threads out there that people just eat up non stop.
;)
WTH is that all about? Isn't it easier just to let the games be the news? :o
From the tone of things at those other sites you'd think someone was trying to drive a convoy of freshly-white-painted trucks through someone else's game studio back entrance.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 23, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 23, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
Thanks Gus! This is an oasis of calm. :)
Geek thanks for providing the summary. The drama has spread to - and, indeed, involves - a large range of gaming websites. It's insane on reddit right now, not to mention 4chan (surprisingly a voice of reason in this).
TotalBiscuit posted a very reasonable piece about it and was immediately flamed by the social justice fuckwits.
I wish I was at home while this is going on!
One of the benefits of being irrelevant. Grogheads avoids all of the fuss and high drama. I can see it now...Housewives of Grogheads.
I disagree. Grogheads is not irrelevant. More likely the reason is that the average game site caters to immature teens, probably due to their buying power.
sar·casm
noun \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
E's a regular Doug Pirana, e' is!
Or were it Dinsdale... ?
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 23, 2014, 09:30:21 PM
From the tone of things at those other sites you'd think someone was trying to drive a convoy of freshly-white-painted trucks through someone else's game studio back entrance.
I see what you did there!!! It's a Russki convoy reference!!! WOOT! :knuppel2:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on August 23, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 23, 2014, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 23, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
Thanks Gus! This is an oasis of calm. :)
Geek thanks for providing the summary. The drama has spread to - and, indeed, involves - a large range of gaming websites. It's insane on reddit right now, not to mention 4chan (surprisingly a voice of reason in this).
TotalBiscuit posted a very reasonable piece about it and was immediately flamed by the social justice fuckwits.
I wish I was at home while this is going on!
One of the benefits of being irrelevant. Grogheads avoids all of the fuss and high drama. I can see it now...Housewives of Grogheads.
I disagree. Grogheads is not irrelevant. More likely the reason is that the average game site caters to immature teens, probably due to their buying power.
sar·casm
noun \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
My mistake, I thought it was modesty to the hallowed halls here. Or maybe you were trying British style understatement.
[/quote]
One of the benefits of being irrelevant. Grogheads avoids all of the fuss and high drama. I can see it now...Housewives of Grogheads.
[/quote]
LOL possible quote of the year
The entire discussion there is just another example of how the Internet has allowed people to automate and share their inability to distinguish opinion from information.
As a technologist, this pains me greatly.
People are rarely reasoned out of positions they weren't reasoned into.
Have we gotten to boobs and puns yet?
I have.
I removed my RPS bookmark after that boycott stuff last year. I just like reading about games. If some website or media source forgets that, they deserve it when people tune out. This latest episode sounds juicy, but ultimately as gamers we have one priority. I just bought Elite Dangerous, so I have things related to gaming to do. Latest RPS BS fading away...
Quote from: Swatter on August 24, 2014, 12:54:59 PM
I removed my RPS bookmark after that boycott stuff last year.
done this afternoon, not out of protest at this latest storm in teacup but like weve all alluded to, i want to learn how to trade in Elite, how to improve at Rome II, not discuss whether armoured bikinis in RPGs mean im a mysoginist for christs sake
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 24, 2014, 12:20:35 PM
Have we gotten to boobs and puns yet?
Apparently someone in the press was sleeping with a developer. :-X Definitely boobs are in there somewhere. ^-^
everything referenced so far is so gentle and mild,
i googled Zoe Quinn to post a pic of her here and lo and behold there are naked pics of her very own boobs (and more) posted by the bitter ex boyfriend
so yeah, boobs
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 24, 2014, 12:20:35 PM
Have we gotten to boobs and puns yet?
Or better still, boob puns ;)
...just trying to keep abreast of the issue....
Bob, I'm disappointed that you would lower the quality of the discussion so readily in this little tit for tat!
Quote from: Boggit on August 24, 2014, 01:13:19 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 24, 2014, 12:20:35 PM
Have we gotten to boobs and puns yet?
Apparently someone in the press was sleeping with a developer. :-X Definitely boobs are in there somewhere. ^-^
Unfortunately it's all manboobs.
Quote from: panzerde on August 24, 2014, 02:36:40 PMBob, I'm disappointed that you would lower the quality of the discussion so readily in this little tit for tat!
If you didn't remember what quality Bawb's puns are, you've got a dreadful mammary
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 24, 2014, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: panzerde on August 24, 2014, 02:36:40 PMBob, I'm disappointed that you would lower the quality of the discussion so readily in this little tit for tat!
If you didn't remember what quality Bawb's puns are, you've got a dreadful mammary
I'd forgotten, and now I feel a right tit! ;)
Too bad the whole thing couldn't have been nipped in the bud.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 24, 2014, 03:39:36 PM
Too bad the whole thing couldn't have been nipped in the bud.
No way that's happening now. The extremists have taken over the conversation. You have the social justice uberwarriors bashing heads with the loser douchebags who are apparently terrified of vaginas. Any chance for reasonable discussion is dead. I recommend staying far away for anyone who wants to maintain a semblance of sanity.
Arctic is pun proof!
Quote from: Arctic Blast on August 24, 2014, 03:55:05 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 24, 2014, 03:39:36 PM
Too bad the whole thing couldn't have been nipped in the bud.
No way that's happening now. The extremists have taken over the conversation. You have the social justice uberwarriors bashing heads with the loser douchebags who are apparently terrified of vaginas. Any chance for reasonable discussion is dead. I recommend staying far away for anyone who wants to maintain a semblance of sanity.
Sounds like the thread is off to R&P before war breaks out, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... :knuppel2:
Man, you guys will milk these stories for all their worth...
???
8)
My patience for this type of thing is really starting to sag.
These things are just so much padding intended to fill the soft gaps.
You have to implant some substance into the story. Maybe some silicone will help it stick.
someone may have to go undercover to expose the truth. Or at least release the catch to show the story is padded.
youre ruining the awesomeness of boobs
Not even this crew could have that kind of effect- Boobs are Man's breast friend!!
What we need now is a game called "Battle Bewbs" ;D How cool is that? 8)
Quote from: Boggit on August 24, 2014, 06:49:20 PMWhat we need now is a game called "Battle Bewbs" ;D How cool is that? 8)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6749/busen-memo
I never even noticed RPS had forums.
For my part, I think RPS (at least the front page, which is the only thing I look at) is fine. I read what I like and think might be interesting, and I skip what I don't like or find boring/stupid.
The real crime of all of this is Zoe Quinn isn't even hot. Does that put me on the right or wrong side of this issue?
Quote from: Boggit on August 24, 2014, 06:49:20 PM
What we need now is a game called "Battle Bewbs" ;D How cool is that? 8)
almost as cool as Battle Bawbs.
I mostly echo Panzerde's sentiments. The Internet can indeed be the definitive crap printing machine.
Of all this very confusing business I only find really interesting the quite clearly stated point of view of TotalBiscuit, here
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s4nmr1
and particularly this:
Quote
2) Games journalism as a whole has a massive nepotism problem, encouraged by the publishers and developers and actively partaken in by many outlets. There are plenty who don't, whether they be independent Youtube channels or important websites like Giantbomb, who made the decision not to review Bastion due to their connections with Greg Kasavin. Maintaining your independence or at the very least being completely honest about your relationship with the developer is paramount to maintaining the trust of your audience. So much shit goes on behind the scenes, more than you could ever possibly know about. I personally find things like industry parties thrown by devs and attended by the media, enthusiast press or otherwise to be a waste of money and time but more importantly an element that horribly muddies the waters in our line of work. It's one thing to be more willing to provide coverage because you happen to know a developer, it's quite another to not disclose that and then create a favorable review of a product, whether it be the final product or repeated pushes to the greenlight page. Transparency in all things is important. People are going to have friends in the industry, that's natural. They are also going to try and help them when they can, they just need to be straight up about it and be very careful about keeping their bias in check.
Which brings me to a recent topic on RPS which has made me to raise my eyebrows
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/08/24/dirty-dozen-sale/
This totally looks to me as Positech - Jim Rossignol - jockeying for the same position that Valve has - becoming a middleman - raising the "Death to Middlemen" battle cry. I have engaged him on the basis of this comment of his on the Comments section
Quote
Well from my point of view it's more just a litmus test to see what a direct-sales sale will do. Direct sales are so limited now that I had no idea what to expect from this, so a standard sort of discount seemed like a good way to see what it would do.
with the following questions
Quote
A few honest questions, Jim. Of course, feel free to ignore them.
1) These prices are really crazy. To me only make sense under one (or both) of the following conditions:
a) The game has already covered development expenses. Further sales are just icing on the cake.
b) The game is about to receive some form of DLC expansion – which isn't discounted. It makes sense to lower the entry price so to increase the reach of the expansions.
2) Don't you think that we're seeing a price war? Aren't you worried by the economics of these deep discounts? I mean, undercutting "publishers" royalty cuts (between a 20% to a 40%, depending on the publisher) can make sense. But here I'm seeing discounts of over a 50%. This looks a bit like dumping. Which I think it is something that a major retailer like Tesco can afford to do. But I reckon that as a producer, a totally out of control race to the bottom can't be good (but it is true that Valve was perhaps the first one starting the race). The bottom line is that expenses need to be covered (salaries, promotion, art), so as an indie developer, I am at a loss at seeing what's the sense of doing such deep cuts, unless I can break it even. I am aware of the strategy where ones tries to increase volume decreasing the entry price, but I think that the odds of sales volume to soar to sufficient levels may be quite long for some titles. Especially "niche" stuff like Democracy 3, which at least on Steam
http://steamcharts.com/app/245470
looks like having an audience numbering on the thousands at best.
While I do generally appreciate RPS content - I skip what I find to be bullshit, very much as I do when I get bullshit on commercial TV, and I suspect they do enjoy 'trolling' people doing this thing of 'publishing a gushing First Impressions' piece and then an 'scathing' Wot I Think - I can't help the feeling that RPS seems to be angling for a very particular position in the gaming press (and the industry). As a music fan I used to enjoy a lot Pitchfork, and its slashing reviews that would reduce musicians into tears, until they became what they're now. A retailer of opinion, as "corrupt" as commercial music radio can be.
I do see RPS following a similar path.
...conclusion: so a week a month RPS Forum changes its brandname and topics to R PMS now or what? :2funny:
I had stopped reading/consuming casual 'gaming' media's so called previews 'n stuff about mainstream hyped games at all.
Its dead Jim!
...last time i tried to get some meaningfull! info about what games (that fell into my interrests niche) may get presented at the Gamescon 14 in Cologne ... All i found was all sort of videos instead of texts, where two or three young bearded hipsters males of some dime a dozens 'games media company' mag start-up (who somehow all looked like somewhere between Sheldon and Lennart actors who went to the BBT casting and didn't made into recall) joint up with some unknown (to me) even younger German letsplay-"celebrity"-Buberle ...were talking shit and joking, or tried to be to dead serious about a 'revolutionary' game feature, while the 0815-official game trailer was running on a big screen behind the sofa they all sit on... Its like Wayne's World-cellar show transported from 1992 to 2014 and about games instead of rockmusic now ...without the babes of course.
Thank the Gods of war for Grogheads
Quote from: MikeGER on August 25, 2014, 02:53:23 AM
Its like Wayne's World-cellar show transported from 1992 to 2014 and about games instead of rockmusic now ...without the babes of course.
That's a good analogy, Mike. Just like that, but not being fun nor fresh. And it also looks to me that far too many people take Beavis or Butthead as role models in the Internet.
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on August 24, 2014, 09:53:58 PM
Quote
2) Games journalism as a whole has a massive nepotism problem, encouraged by the publishers and developers and actively partaken in by many outlets. There are plenty who don't, whether they be independent Youtube channels or important websites like Giantbomb, who made the decision not to review Bastion due to their connections with Greg Kasavin. Maintaining your independence or at the very least being completely honest about your relationship with the developer is paramount to maintaining the trust of your audience. So much shit goes on behind the scenes, more than you could ever possibly know about. I personally find things like industry parties thrown by devs and attended by the media, enthusiast press or otherwise to be a waste of money and time but more importantly an element that horribly muddies the waters in our line of work. It's one thing to be more willing to provide coverage because you happen to know a developer, it's quite another to not disclose that and then create a favorable review of a product, whether it be the final product or repeated pushes to the greenlight page. Transparency in all things is important. People are going to have friends in the industry, that's natural. They are also going to try and help them when they can, they just need to be straight up about it and be very careful about keeping their bias in check.
Industry parties? They throw industry parties? What was that I was saying about irrelevance?
in the interest of maintaining our ongoing irrelevance, we threw our own party at Origins
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 25, 2014, 06:34:26 AM
in the interest of maintaining our ongoing irrelevance, we threw our own party at Origins
I know. I saw the pictures...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2359/2445275634_ba9b595664.jpg)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 25, 2014, 06:49:48 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 25, 2014, 06:34:26 AM
in the interest of maintaining our ongoing irrelevance, we threw our own party at Origins
I know. I saw the pictures...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2359/2445275634_ba9b595664.jpg)
It's like you were there! :2funny:
ROFL! ^^ ;D
Quote from: Gusington on August 24, 2014, 09:32:02 PM
The real crime of all of this is Zoe Quinn isn't even hot. Does that put me on the right or wrong side of this issue?
You weren't attracted to the blue hair, and the stud in the lip then? :2funny:
Didnt Bob Dylan even wrote a song about her in precognition ;) (i prefer the Manfred Mans EB version so)
Come on without
Come on within
You'll not see nothing like the Mighty Quinn
Come on without
Come on within
You'll not see nothing like the Mighty Quinn
Everybody's building
Ships and boats
Some are building monuments
Others dummy pound notes
Everybody's in dispair
Every girl and bo]y
But when Quinn the eskimo gets here
Everybody's gonna jump for joy
... :2funny:
Quote from: Boggit on August 24, 2014, 06:49:20 PM
What we need now is a game called "Battle Bewbs" ;D How cool is that? 8)
With 2 on each side presumably.
Quote from: bob48 on August 25, 2014, 08:34:39 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 24, 2014, 06:49:20 PM
What we need now is a game called "Battle Bewbs" ;D How cool is that? 8)
With 2 on each side presumably.
Nah! Inspired by this thread it should be at least a 6 player game! ;D
That could be a bit of a handful........I hope ;)
Quote from: Boggit on August 23, 2014, 09:26:12 PM
WTH is that all about? Isn't it easier just to let the games be the news? :o
It's news that games are not a cultural backwater anymore, I guess. I have to say I mostly read RPS to feel smug and self-satisfied that I have no idea what they are talking about and happy that I rarely have any interest in the games they cover.
Still I do read it and someday I hope to see some games on RPS that I might consider playing.
Quote from: bob48 on August 25, 2014, 09:07:51 AM
That could be a bit of a handful........I hope ;)
I see you find the idea of that game has titillating... Up for a pre-order then?;)
Quote from: MengJiao on August 25, 2014, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 23, 2014, 09:26:12 PM
WTH is that all about? Isn't it easier just to let the games be the news? :o
It's news that games are not a cultural backwater anymore, I guess. I have to say I mostly read RPS to feel smug and self-satisfied that I have no idea what they are talking about and happy that I rarely have any interest in the games they cover.
Still I do read it and someday I hope to see some games on RPS that I might consider playing.
I suppose in fairness, they are trying to appeal to a wider audience. We are fairly hardcore with our wargames, strategy games, flight sims, RPGs etc - a different audience perhaps?
I tried to read a few posts here and there. There's clearly a lot of backstory involved and an assumption of knoweldge of characters from other communities. Kind of like season 5 of Lost. Or half the jokes we make here.
Quote from: Boggit on August 25, 2014, 09:54:24 AM
Quote from: bob48 on August 25, 2014, 09:07:51 AM
That could be a bit of a handful........I hope ;)
I see you find the idea of that game has titillating... Up for a pre-order then?;)
Outstanding - I like thrust of your argument.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 25, 2014, 09:58:59 AM
Or half the jokes we make here.
this half - boobs
that half - puns
which half were you referring to?
Quote from: Boggit on August 25, 2014, 09:58:23 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on August 25, 2014, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 23, 2014, 09:26:12 PM
WTH is that all about? Isn't it easier just to let the games be the news? :o
It's news that games are not a cultural backwater anymore, I guess. I have to say I mostly read RPS to feel smug and self-satisfied that I have no idea what they are talking about and happy that I rarely have any interest in the games they cover.
Still I do read it and someday I hope to see some games on RPS that I might consider playing.
I suppose in fairness, they are trying to appeal to a wider audience. We are fairly hardcore with our wargames, strategy games, flight sims, RPGs etc - a different audience perhaps?
I'm not sure how different the audience is. I rarely read the comments and I had no idea they had a forum. One difference could be what we think of as "cutting-edge" versus what they think of as "cutting-edge"...to me the cutting edge (ie the developments that are inherently interesting even if not my cup of tea) is better simulation accuracy -- better boats, ships and planes, better methods for simulating armed conflicts and so on. For them -- I'd say they really are not sure, the cutting edge could be anything that suddenly has a big audience. Which means they spend a lot of time looking at stuff that has tiny audiences or no audience but which might be the "next big thing".
Off hand I'd say that means 99% of the stuff they look at is a pure waste of time since clearly not every little thing can be the next big thing. But I am happy to at least hear about it.
Quote from: MengJiao on August 25, 2014, 10:37:50 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 25, 2014, 09:58:23 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on August 25, 2014, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 23, 2014, 09:26:12 PM
WTH is that all about? Isn't it easier just to let the games be the news? :o
It's news that games are not a cultural backwater anymore, I guess. I have to say I mostly read RPS to feel smug and self-satisfied that I have no idea what they are talking about and happy that I rarely have any interest in the games they cover.
Still I do read it and someday I hope to see some games on RPS that I might consider playing.
I suppose in fairness, they are trying to appeal to a wider audience. We are fairly hardcore with our wargames, strategy games, flight sims, RPGs etc - a different audience perhaps?
I'm not sure how different the audience is. I rarely read the comments and I had no idea they had a forum. One difference could be what we think of as "cutting-edge" versus what they think of as "cutting-edge"...to me the cutting edge (ie the developments that are inherently interesting even if not my cup of tea) is better simulation accuracy -- better boats, ships and planes, better methods for simulating armed conflicts and so on. For them -- I'd say they really are not sure, the cutting edge could be anything that suddenly has a big audience. Which means they spend a lot of time looking at stuff that has tiny audiences or no audience but which might be the "next big thing".
Off hand I'd say that means 99% of the stuff they look at is a pure waste of time since clearly not every little thing can be the next big thing. But I am happy to at least hear about it.
You could be right, but in all honesty I can't answer for them. I agree with your definition of "cutting edge" - but then, like you - we're both Grogs! 8)
Quote from: Barthheart on August 25, 2014, 07:17:46 AM
It's like you were there! :2funny:
C'mon Vance, be fair: those guys are way cooler than us.
OTOH, we did have Canadians....
That's me in the back left of that pic, btw. It's a while back tbough, at least fwo weeks :)
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 25, 2014, 10:33:23 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 25, 2014, 09:58:59 AM
Or half the jokes we make here.
this half - boobs
that half - puns
which half were you referring to?
We can always branch out. You are never too old to teach dawgs tricks, as the old saying goes.
Hey diddle diddle, there's a pun in the middle
those heaving chests all look so nice
lets roll those cups
until snake eyes come up
the contents are worth grabbing twice.
Quote from: Boggit on August 25, 2014, 07:22:25 AM
Quote from: Gusington on August 24, 2014, 09:32:02 PM
The real crime of all of this is Zoe Quinn isn't even hot. Does that put me on the right or wrong side of this issue?
You weren't attracted to the blue hair, and the stud in the lip then? :2funny:
Whatchutalkin' about Willis? Zoe Quinn is HOT!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos.modelmayhem.com%2Favatars%2F1%2F0%2F6%2F4%2F9%2F1%2F7%2F1064917912_m.jpg&hash=8c89d6ec07c0e924ac5483363506f8964d30c5e0)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg.nordstromimage.com%2Fimagegallery%2Fstore%2Fproduct%2FLarge%2F13%2F_8693973.jpg&hash=fefd8e8414eed46c08dd854ca18288d97df21d18)
:D
Anyway, hopefully this fight doesn't cleave a rift in the gaming community.
:o
Quote from: Toonces on August 26, 2014, 12:47:26 AM
Whatchutalkin' about Willis? Zoe Quinn is HOT!
img . . . img
well dolled up for a shooting
(that could be done with almost all
'slim' 27y old ...see Hollywood movie vs without make up or mugshots of actress)
but that's what you would get in RL / on Skye or something atm ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.kpopstarz.com%2Fdata%2Fimages%2Ffull%2F194398%2Fzoe-quinn.jpg%3Fw%3D600&hash=a9f3fa3002a617daa831728939588ab2eb082488)
and thats when you take her out for dinner... or The Lord help us!, the Navy ball ;D
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgame4v.com%2Fg4v-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F08%2Fzoechair.jpg&hash=c84a34df7bd94fe3c50a726b492b42d863c39cb5)
This sort of reminds me of the whole Shannon Faulkner episode. This young woman fought so hard for the right to attend an all male military school, the Citadel, even taking the school to court in litigation lasting for years, and finally won. She matriculated to great fanfare and unceremoniously quit after about a week.
THe point is, there are so few women in gaming and there seems to be such a push over at RPS for universal woman's suffrage in gaming, that this episode should be so embarrassing to all the parties involved. What I find even more amusing is that it wouldn't even be an issue if RPS hadn't jumped on the culture wasting wagon called political correctness.
Moral of the story, if you do not want to encourage misoginism...don't be a whore.
Yeah I don't usually say things like this about women, but considering Zoe has used her looks to get where she is, I don't think it's unfair for me to agree that she is in fact a total minger. The whole affair would be a lot more understandable if she didn't look like a man.
Anyway.
Jarhead, I agree with you. I hate forced equality. In the business news there's occasionally some "story" about how few females there are in the boardroom. Well, so what? Maybe that's because - SHOCK - there are more men than women capable of doing the job? That isn't misogyny, that's an honest question/observation. Businesses are ruthlessly driven by nothing but the pursuit of profit; if a business thought it could make more money by promoting Janet instead of John, it would promote Janet. End of story.
You just can't force these things. Men and women are different, have different abilities/desires/needs, and feminists need to learn this basic fact.
I'd just add that I'm delighted that women enjoy gaming, and I'd encourage more to do so because it's interesting and fun. O0 It's just a pity seeing incidents like this one give a bad press to them. (@Bob - no pun was intended there..., but I'm going to regret that aren't I ;))
I think the issue is really less about her and more about the web-wide reaction to her. She may not be a great person, but to get hammered thru social media over a game she made for a nonprofit to help people struggle with depression was nuts. And then some dude tweeted her a note that he thought it was a good and useful game, and *he* was attacked by the internet troll brigade.
She might be a twit, and RPS might be inviting scrutiny or scorn for letting personal relationships cloud their coverage. But some of the attacks on her have been waaaay over the top, no matter the context.
I think there's a world of difference between criticizing a website for losing their objectivity, criticizing a game maker for using personal relationships to get ahead, and being threatened with rape just b/c you're a vocal woman game designer
there you go, a reasonable, sensible discussion about women in gaming and game development
why this cant happen anywhere else on the net is beyond me
as i said to Huw on Steam chat - the biggest problem (apart from the white knighting) i have at RPS is the comments section on the articles - its like a pack of wolves, the first comment is always someone deconstructing and pissing on the opinions of the piece and then its someone elses turn:
'I like this game',
'pffft then youre an idiot'
'it doesnt have women'
is on almost every game review
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 26, 2014, 05:04:23 AM
I think the issue is really less about her and more about the web-wide reaction to her. She may not be a great person, but to get hammered thru social media over a game she made for a nonprofit to help people struggle with depression was nuts. And then some dude tweeted her a note that he thought it was a good and useful game, and *he* was attacked by the internet troll brigade.
She might be a twit, and RPS might be inviting scrutiny or scorn for letting personal relationships cloud their coverage. But some of the attacks on her have been waaaay over the top, no matter the context.
I think there's a world of difference between criticizing a website for losing their objectivity, criticizing a game maker for using personal relationships to get ahead, and being threatened with rape just b/c you're a vocal woman game designer
In case it wasn't totally clear, when I said "whore", I was referring to the political correctness Gestapo, not to the young lady.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 26, 2014, 05:04:23 AM
I think there's a world of difference between criticizing a website for losing their objectivity, criticizing a game maker for using personal relationships to get ahead, and being threatened with rape just b/c you're a vocal woman game designer
I couldn't agree more. O0 That's a disgusting thing to do. >:(
Brant, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Zoe is strongly suspected (some would say completely proved although I haven't looked at the evidence much) of being behind some pretty nasty pieces of work such as deliberately sabotaging a game jam and then getting proceeds and donations funneled into her own bank account. There are other allegations of her fleecing money out of unsuspecting people.
Like I said, I don't know enough about it to comment, but the issue is much more than just Zoe being attacked by the anti-SJW brigade. A bunch of people telling her that her game is shit happened ages ago - this latest episode was precipitated by her ex boyfriend posting a load of stuff online to show that she cheated on him with game industry types and is generally a shitty person.
(There are plenty of other ramifications to all of this too - Zoe has been a touchstone for it, but the pitchforks are currently pointed at the gaming journalism business as a whole for various reasons)
I plan to write some more on this later.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 08:11:03 AMBrant, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Zoe is strongly suspected (some would say completely proved although I haven't looked at the evidence much) of being behind some pretty nasty pieces of work such as deliberately sabotaging a game jam and then getting proceeds and donations funneled into her own bank account. There are other allegations of her fleecing money out of unsuspecting people.
Oh yeah - I read into part of it, but not that far. Honestly, I got bored trying to parse thru it. While the infamous Penny Arcade "Dickwolves" saga was equally convoluted, tracking it never bored me. This one did.
But ask yourself, if it was a guy that had done all the horible things he'd done, would there be the same level of sexually-charged invective aimed his way? Would there be the same allegations of sleeping his way to the top if it was "Zeke" and not "Zoe"? Would the internet troll brigade overload a guy's twitter feed with rape threats and comments about his looks?
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 08:11:03 AMLike I said, I don't know enough about it to comment, but the issue is much more than just Zoe being attacked by the anti-SJW brigade. A bunch of people telling her that her game is shit happened ages ago - this latest episode was precipitated by her ex boyfriend posting a load of stuff online to show that she cheated on him with game industry types and is generally a shitty person.
Again, being a shitty person is a perfectly good reason for someone to dislike you, but the questions from above still stand - would this level of abuse be leveled at a guy in the same circumstances? I'm not saying she's a saint - clearly far from it. Moreover, RPS seems to be caught in a corssfire of their own making by letting personal relationships - sexual or otherwise - cloud what they've said about it.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 08:11:03 AM(There are plenty of other ramifications to all of this too - Zoe has been a touchstone for it, but the pitchforks are currently pointed at the gaming journalism business as a whole for various reasons)
I plan to write some more on this later.
I look forward to reading your thoughts on it!
RPS have deleted everything about it
theres one thread left where a guy is asking why they refuse to discuss or allow discussions about it when a male designer got his ass handed to him at RPS when he was accused of rape
jon walkers own twitter feed says if it is discussed any further on RPS you will be banned
its pretty messy
Brant, just to be clear, I absolutely agree that no game dev should be piled on, regardless of gender. What bothers me in this latest episode is that people who are asking reasonable questions regarding Zoe's behaviour and that of gaming industry people are being shouted down as "misogynists", i.e. debate is being completely stifled. Matt Lees - someone I used to respect - wrote a large blog entry yesterday essentially saying "la la la not listening to you, can't be arsed to argue". As shameful as his stance is, he's actually extraordinary amongst gaming journalists for even making a stance.
Someone on one of the (presumably now deleted) RPS threads summed the situation up excellently, saying that basically all the SJWs (including journos) were quick to flock to Zoe's defense as soon as she was attacked, but it's transpiring that the attacks were justified as more evidence is found of her reprehensible actions and now they don't want to back down because they don't want their SJW movement to take damage, i.e. when they justifiably want to defend the next victim.
To add to this, the whole thing is hypocritical in the extreme, as RPS and several other websites were very quick to spread gossip about Max Temkin being accused of rape despite the fact that it's nothing more than gossip with no charges even being filed, yet none of them will touch this story with a ten foot pole. So to answer your question (if it was a guy), yes, they would and yes they did, but they won't even acknowledge that they were wrong about Zoe, let alone apologise for any of it.
The wall of silence that the gaming journalism industry is putting up is disturbing, irritating and hypocritical. Yes, some of the pitchfork mob are being bellends (as are some of the SJW mob) but the people asking reasonable questions are being treated with equal disdain. That RPS won't even allow discussion of it is just disgusting in my opinion.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 09:42:04 AM
bellends
the end of your, well, you know
for the 'Mericans
(Typing on phone... Pls forgive brevity/typos)
I agree that RPS stifling the debate is a bad thing
I also agree that you should at least be able to have a discussion about the merits of the case without attacking someone, and without being called names for just trying to have the discussion
it sounds a lot like the extremists on both sides or just shouting at each other, and no one is bothering to listen in the middle anywhere
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 26, 2014, 09:50:16 AM
(Typing on phone... Pls forgive brevity/typos)
it sounds a lot like the extremists on both sides or just shouting at each other, and no one is bothering to listen in the middle anywhere
I know a website like that... if I could just remember the name of it. :buck2:
OK, next part!!!
One part of the fuel for the fire was a video by some feminist called Anita Sarkeesian "explaining" how women are objectified in games and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.
and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.
and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.
I'm sure I don't have to explain to any of you fine fellows what utter bollocks this is. But let's think a little bit more about that pernicious phrase. If anyone seriously thinks that the objectification of women in games can cause a corresponding increase in the objectification of women in real life, shouldn't we also be agreeing with the time-worn and demonstrably false notion that violence in games can cause an increase in violence in real life?
I think I've just won the argument for us all! Go back to bed everyone, Huw the Poo has figured it out! All I need to do now is spread the word across the sea of reason that is the gaming community...
...and I'll surely be called a sexist for daring to have my own fucking opinion. Which is precisely what's been happening everywhere in the last couple of weeks. Christ, it's happening to one prominent gaming Youtuber as I type! (https://twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/504329064807931905)
There is no hope for the future of Mankind.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
...and I'll surely be called a sexist for daring to have my own fucking opinion. Which is precisely what's been happening everywhere in the last couple of weeks. Christ, it's happening to one prominent gaming Youtuber as I type! (https://twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/504329064807931905)
There is no hope for the future of Mankind.
You left out Wimminkind. Sexist pig.
Honestly this is too convoluted and basically exhausting for me too care about. I am glad that people have this passion about arguing for games but to me it sounds too much like the political intrigues/backstabbing/harassment and bullying found in any large corporate organization. Just with a million monkeys typing about it on the internet.
Con
Quote from: Con on August 26, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Honestly this is too convoluted and basically exhausting for me too care about. I am glad that people have this passion about arguing for games but to me it sounds too much like the political intrigues/backstabbing/harassment and bullying found in any large corporate organization. Just with a million monkeys typing about it on the internet.
Con
The harassment and bullying is precisely what I'm opposed to. I get that feminists and SJW will always be annoyed with certain games and that's fine, if that's all it was. But lately
anyone who dares have
any kind of opposing viewpoint is being hounded, and that's what's making me so angry. I don't care that other people have different opinions to my own, I just want them to keep them to themselves and not try to coerce other people into parroting the same stuff.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 26, 2014, 04:41:54 PM
You left out Wimminkind. Sexist pig.
OK that genuinely made me LOL! Thanks mate!
Your post raises some interesting issues about censorship on forums that IanC was talking about - that any dissenting opinion can get you hounded, or even banned from a forum just for being honest in your view. :-X Scary thought if that really was all there was to it. :o
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=11017.0
Wow, that's quite the story! I'm amazed I wasn't banned, then, when EU3 was out and I questioned why I should buy the DLC just to make the game playable. :)
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
One part of the fuel for the fire was a video by some feminist called Anita Sarkeesian "explaining" how women are objectified in games and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.
In general I'll just point at Brant's posts and say "what he said" pretty much sums up what I think on the topic.
I will say stacking Anita Sarkeesian versus the average gaming troll cretin in a discussion is liable to create such a potent singularity of stupid that, well, it's likely to tear the ass-end out of the universe. It's just a bad idea.
Quote from: panzerde on August 26, 2014, 06:45:51 PM
I will say stacking Anita Sarkeesian versus the average gaming troll cretin in a discussion is liable to create such a potent singularity of stupid that, well, it's likely to tear the ass-end out of the universe. It's just a bad idea.
Oh she formed a cogent argument, absolutely, and one would at least
hope that she frowns on the actions of her legion of followers. I just happen to think that she's entirely wrong. I also have more to say about her later, but it's 01:00 here and I'm off to bed for now.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 26, 2014, 04:31:27 PMIf anyone seriously thinks that the objectification of women in games can cause a corresponding increase in the objectification of women in real life, shouldn't we also be agreeing with the time-worn and demonstrably false notion that violence in games can cause an increase in violence in real life?
So if there's no ability to learn from video games then the Marines are wasting a shitload of time and money on Smuck to manage their DVTE suite?
The "learning from video games" crowd has to come to grips with the fact that if there are actual learning effects from games, that some of those effects can be negative. It's the structure around the learning that reinforces the positive effects while maintaining a control on the negative effects. But there's no way that you can argue that video games don't have an informal learning effect while trying to simultaneously arguing for the positive effects of video games in a formal learning context.
My view on this topic is that the difficulty I have with all these sort of discussions is that both "sides" expect to be allowed to promote their arguments, yet get annoyed at the other "side" being allowed to promote its argument. My opinion of someone might be that they're a total f*cking c*nt - do I have an inalienable right to express that opinion? If I post that opinion and it's deleted, am I the victim of censorship?
Rest assured I'm posting this in the spirit of a Devil's Advocate, to promote discussion, not start a row.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 26, 2014, 09:50:16 AM
it sounds a lot like the extremists on both sides or just shouting at each other, and no one is bothering to listen in the middle anywhere
That is as perfect a summation of politics as I have
EVER seen!
It's probably breast if both sides of the hill just stop juggling these issues and drop it.
Quote from: Father Ted on August 26, 2014, 07:27:38 PM
My view on this topic is that the difficulty I have with all these sort of discussions is that both "sides" expect to be allowed to promote their arguments, yet get annoyed at the other "side" being allowed to promote its argument. My opinion of someone might be that they're a total f*cking c*nt - do I have an inalienable right to express that opinion? If I post that opinion and it's deleted, am I the victim of censorship?
Rest assured I'm posting this in the spirit of a Devil's Advocate, to promote discussion, not start a row.
Fair enough then - here's an alternate position to discuss -
I suppose it depends how it is done, and also the nature of the audience you address. It's one thing discussing the matter privately with a few mates over a few beers, it's another altogether with a general audience whom you are unlikely to know in entirety. Firstly the language used is inappropriate to factually describe your opinion of the the person. All it does is convey an insult, and reflect on your inability to clearly articulate why you feel that way about them - They are not literally as described.
I think it is a basic line of civility you will have crossed at that point - as much towards the wider audience, as to the subject in question. On that basis censorship is more to do with the nature of the language used for the offense it is likely to convey to the audience, rather than an injunction on your capacity to express an opinion on a person.
Conversely, you could cite evidence as to the behaviour of said person, and say on that basis you question their character
res ipso loquitur - that the facts speak for themselves. It's then quite hard for your detractors to rationally argue your opinion other than on the facts. If at that point you are censored for making an argument on the facts then I think you have every right to be upset at censorship - it does depend to some extent on your target audience - but I don't think is a general unalienable right to express any opinion any way you like without drawing, perhaps warranted criticism at the way it's done rather than for the substance of the criticism.
My $0.02, again playing Devil's Advocate in the interest of promoting the discussion. :)
its actually the kinda chick I see Mirth banging. >:D ^-^ :2funny: :buck2: :idiot2: :smitten: :uglystupid2: :tickedoff: O0
oh, those smileys aren't my commentary. thats how the date goes.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 27, 2014, 12:05:33 AM
its actually the kinda chick I see Mirth banging. >:D ^-^ :2funny: :buck2: :idiot2: :smitten: :uglystupid2: :tickedoff: O0
Now you're being mean... ::) ;) :2funny:
I've walked more miles in those shoes then he has.
Back to one of Huw's key points - there's no reason to completely shut down the debate on this, if people can manage to keep it civil. As long as you're not insulting each other or giving out personal info (aka "doxxing") or otherwise trolling with the sole point of fanning the flames, there's no reason not to just talk about both sides, or all the different sides in this case.
Aside from a few flare-ups in the Combat Mission threads, we've been able to keep things pretty civil around here, and that's one of the things I like most about this place. I imagine that'll get tougher as we grow, but so far, I'm happy with the level of discussion we tend to have.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 27, 2014, 05:12:12 AM
Back to one of Huw's key points - there's no reason to completely shut down the debate on this, if people can manage to keep it civil.
I want this so desperately. It's what the situation needs. It's true that some of the SJW crowd have been taking some hateful flak (although far less than they've been giving out in my opinion (doxxing a 10-year-old boy and threatening to kill him, anyone?)), but look what happens when people like TotalBiscuit and JonTron actually say calm, reasonable things online.
Torrents of abuse and yet more accusations of "misogyny" for daring to question Zoe Quinn's motives.
I'm getting really weary of the whole thing now.
Seems like some gaming websites still have some hairs left on their balls (http://gamesnosh.com/notoriously-foul-website-4chan-funds-female-inclusive-gamejam-response-to-zoe-quinn-scandal/)
See? This is proper reporting. This is how it should be done. They aren't getting their hands dirty or anything, but at least they're reporting the facts and daring to show that not everyone has fallen for Zoe Quinn's bullshit. I don't know how sites like RPS can refuse to even mention it and still call themselves gaming news outlets.
Quote from: MetalDog on August 26, 2014, 10:56:04 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 26, 2014, 09:50:16 AM
it sounds a lot like the extremists on both sides or just shouting at each other, and no one is bothering to listen in the middle anywhere
That is as perfect a summation of politics as I have EVER seen!
Wow, do you ever have that right. A huge +1.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 27, 2014, 05:12:12 AM
Back to one of Huw's key points - there's no reason to completely shut down the debate on this, if people can manage to keep it civil. As long as you're not insulting each other or giving out personal info (aka "doxxing") or otherwise trolling with the sole point of fanning the flames, there's no reason not to just talk about both sides, or all the different sides in this case.
Well, there you go. A bunch of warmongering grogs are apparently the only ones capable of having a reasonable discussion about this. It's too perfect. ;D
Not that I'm surprised, really. This group is actually capable of a mature conversation that doesn't turn into dribbling nonsense from extremes.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on August 27, 2014, 12:47:08 PM
This group is actually capable of a mature conversation that doesn't turn into dribbling nonsense from extremes.
It is?! Where's the special part of the forums we've been keeping those kind of discussions? :P
we are VERY serious about bewbays!
Two thoughts this morning:
Regardless of what you may think of her opinions about video games, this is simply beyond the pale: http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/27/6075179/anita-sarkeesian-says-she-was-driven-out-of-house-by-threats
There is nothing in what this person says that is justification for more than a statement of "I disagree with that." Anyone who feels compelled to wage these sorts of harassment and threat campaigns against another person online is mentally ill.
Second: This environment is why in most places it's simply impossible to have any sort of discussion online. There are a lot of people with Internet access with a very tenuous grasp of reality.
Edit: And to illustrate that this is a human problem and not just a problem women face: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/chef-pledges-better-police-open-source-community-engineer-resigns-following-death-threats/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+geekwire+%28GeekWire%29
Quote from: panzerde on August 28, 2014, 07:39:22 AM
Regardless of what you may think of her opinions about video games, this is simply beyond the pale: http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/27/6075179/anita-sarkeesian-says-she-was-driven-out-of-house-by-threats
Yep, absolutely - assuming the threats were real, of course - and before you roll your eyes, her ally Zoe Quinn fabricated
at least two attacks on herself. But I agree with the general point, that extreme response on either side solves nothing, and it's one of my larger bugbears with this whole situation.
QuoteSecond: This environment is why in most places it's simply impossible to have any sort of discussion online. There are a lot of people with Internet access with a very tenuous grasp of reality.
Agreed also. I've been participating in the argument in more public spheres than this one using pseudonyms for this very reason. Nobody should have to do that.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on August 27, 2014, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 27, 2014, 05:12:12 AM
Back to one of Huw's key points - there's no reason to completely shut down the debate on this, if people can manage to keep it civil. As long as you're not insulting each other or giving out personal info (aka "doxxing") or otherwise trolling with the sole point of fanning the flames, there's no reason not to just talk about both sides, or all the different sides in this case.
Well, there you go. A bunch of warmongering grogs are apparently the only ones capable of having a reasonable discussion about this. It's too perfect. ;D
I was thinking about how warmongering forces you to have some sense of proportion and to recognize how far (luckily) fantasies are from reality. Moreover, if somebody asks you to sort of "explain your interest" in blowing things up -- the very first thing you recognize is that it is kind of infantile and irrational -- and yet in the real world real things get blown up (perhaps in infantile and irrational ways even there).
^^ +1. That's irony for you. :) ::)
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 28, 2014, 08:29:36 AM
I've been participating in the argument in more public spheres than this one using pseudonyms for this very reason. Nobody should have to do that.
Not a personal thing Huw, but isn't the ability to use pseudonyms one of the accelerants of these out-of-control spite-fests?
Quote from: Father Ted on August 28, 2014, 06:07:52 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 28, 2014, 08:29:36 AM
I've been participating in the argument in more public spheres than this one using pseudonyms for this very reason. Nobody should have to do that.
Not a personal thing Huw, but isn't the ability to use pseudonyms one of the accelerants of these out-of-control spite-fests?
It can be. You could also argue that it's an equaliser. Take 4chan; that's a community far more inclusive than people would have you believe. They actually oppose usernames because
what you say is more important than
who you are, thus everyone is treated equally.
Anyway, in this particular case, people are having nasty things happen to them when their identities - real life identities - are revealed, so in this case, I think it would be insane not to use a pseudonym.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 27, 2014, 07:40:21 AM
Seems like some gaming websites still have some hairs left on their balls (http://gamesnosh.com/notoriously-foul-website-4chan-funds-female-inclusive-gamejam-response-to-zoe-quinn-scandal/)
See? This is proper reporting. This is how it should be done. They aren't getting their hands dirty or anything, but at least they're reporting the facts and daring to show that not everyone has fallen for Zoe Quinn's bullshit. I don't know how sites like RPS can refuse to even mention it and still call themselves gaming news outlets.
I hope 4Chan lampoons the nonsense in the usual vulgar ways. I'm rooting for the 3rd party malcontents. ;)
Quote from: Nefaro on August 28, 2014, 07:01:53 PM
I hope 4Chan lampoons the nonsense in the usual vulgar ways. I'm rooting for the 3rd party malcontents. ;)
They're actually trying to take the moral high ground on this one, but yeah, plans are underway. ;)
I've been spending a lot of time on 4chan lately and I have to admit I really like it there. It's an insanely huge community; you can't tar them all with the same brush because they're far too diverse. Hell, even a lot of the individual boards there don't get on with each other. 4chan definitely does not speak with one voice, but activist groups do spring up there from time to time.
As I said in my response to Father Ted, everyone is treated equally there and all that counts is what you say. It's a much better community than it's given credit for.
Someone has posted an absolutely fantastic open letter to gaming journalists (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s7627m). If you're even remotely interested in the current saga, or care at all about games journalism, it's a must read. It's long but every word is a gem. The author explains exactly why gamers are pissed off with gaming journalists right now and calls them out on various shitty things they've done, not just now but over the last few years.
He also explains, better than I did up-thread, why it's hypocritical that they refuse to be critical of Anita Sarkeesian, i.e. they fought Jack Thompson (remember him?) for saying violence in games leads to violence in real life but refuse to criticise Sarkeesian for saying the exact same thing about sexism.
WOW..talk about washing your laundry in public places..
I don't bother with the RPS forums..just read Flare Path and any articles on games I'm interested in..
Quote from: TacticalWargames on September 04, 2014, 02:40:14 PM
WOW..talk about washing your laundry in public places..
Wait, what? ???
please continue.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mmaplayground.com%2Fforums%2Fi%2Fpi%2F667125_1.gif&hash=5560f360b031791c482cdb1cb1477eceedb1c8ed)
Talking about this Zoe business cheating etc etc..seems all abit odd.
Ah, yes. Of course.
Quote from: TacticalWargames on September 04, 2014, 02:40:14 PMWOW..talk about washing your laundry in public places..
I don't bother with the RPS forums..just read Flare Path and any articles on games I'm interested in..
O0
This has nothing to do with whoever this broad is that you're all talking about and whatever it is she did with her vagina. I don't know and don't care about that, but this is an epic freaking rant against the stupidity and hypocrisy of the PC and feminist agitators in the media. Just watch. Trust me.
Quote from: Bison on September 06, 2014, 03:18:07 AM
This has nothing to do with whoever this broad is that you're all talking about and whatever it is she did with her vagina. I don't know and don't care about that, but this is an epic freaking rant against the stupidity and hypocrisy of the PC and feminist agitators in the media. Just watch. Trust me.
perfect
ive never seen anyone vibrating with the need to shout 'fk you you idiots' so much
Quote from: Bison on September 06, 2014, 03:18:07 AM
This has nothing to do with whoever this broad is that you're all talking about and whatever it is she did with her vagina. I don't know and don't care about that, but this is an epic freaking rant against the stupidity and hypocrisy of the PC and feminist agitators in the media. Just watch. Trust me.
So perfect! O0 :2funny:
Hahaha, that was ace! No wonder it's good - that's Maddox, who made The Best Page in the Universe (http://maddox.xmission.com/), a constant source of merriment when he used to update it regularly.
Edit: Oh, looks like he's updating it regularly again. Cool!
Greg Costikyan's take
Quote"As a male voice in the game industry," writes my daughter Vicky, "you should speak out about this."
Ouch.
I wanted to hold my tongue. Because when I let loose, it usually does me no favors. But she's right.
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
What do you think you're defending? An industry in which greed-head executives make brain-dead games on a yearly basis that show little to no innovation from one title to the next? You fucking -want- Madden? And the next Call of Duty game, same as the last but with new content from hundreds of exploited drones working hours that destroy relationships because the suits think that's what they want?
For decades, we had a market that catered to Maxim-reading horny boy-men who bought games by developers who spent man-years on developing better physics to make tits bounce in the next beach volleyball title. For decades, we had shameless manager jackasses who thought the best way to market their titles was to hire high-breasted bimbos to pose and giggle at their booths at E3.
For decades, we had the best creative minds of our industry SHUT DOWN whenever they proposed the slightest design innovation, because increasing budgets meant all design risk must be minimized.
For decades, we had no way for people who wanted to do anything creative be able to find any path to market.
Finally, finally, and thank god, we have a viable path of market for indies, and a way for people who want to express themselves through games that will never sell in the millions to find a market. And you find that a PROBLEM?
What kind of blinkered idiots you are?
And of course, indies do whatever the fuck they can to get noticed, because they don't have MILLIONS OF MARKETING DOLLARS TO SPEND. What the fuck would you expect?
Let me explain something do you. Bobby Kotick, CEO of Activision: Mutimillionare. Anna Anthrophy? Stroppy indie developer who probably has problems paying her rent. Who has the power here? What the fuck are you talking about?
There's some kind of conspiracy by the in-group to promote indie games at the expense of "real" games? What the fuck are you talking about? Who cares who Zoe Quinn fucked, or didn't fuck? It's none of your fucking business, unless you were one of the people involved, and most of you would give your left kidney to fuck her, if you had any brains. You are unlikely ever to touch anyone with an iota of her talent or intelligence.
And what does that even mean? Have you suddenly noticed that the game industry is undergoing weird changes as a result of this supposed conspiracy? The next Call of Duty being cancelled in favor of triple-A treatment of the next Anna Anthropy design?
Do people who actually care about whether games can be more than degraded violence porn for young men sometimes get together and talk about games that actually matter? And do they sometimes write about such games?
You're fucking right they do! And you should be fucking grateful that someday a more mature and interesting landscape of videogames may emerge from that! That's not what we call "conspiracy;" that's what we call "gamers who care about games."
And what is it with this mysoginistic bullshit?
I want to tell you some stories.
1. The studio head who invited me -and a female employee- to join them at a strip club at a conference, expecting we would all enjoy this as a 'fun time.'
2. The party given by an industry marketing firm where I and Dan Scherlis were approached by a scantily clad woman who was evidently hired to show their clients a good time (not necessarily including actual fornication) and had to explain that we were both involved with people we cared about, and actually were having a perfectly enjoyable time talking to each other.
3. The -very- gay friend of mine who was hired by another firm and started sweating when I approached their booth at a conference, in fear that I would reveal his sexual orientation to his new boss.
4. My friend, Dan Bunten, a seminal figure in early PC gaming, who decided he was a woman, and after extensive surgery, became Danielle Bunten Berry. "Shabbily treated" wouldn't even begin to describe it.
I have no idea why gender and such is even an issue in this conversation. Women have always been a minority in the games industry, to its loss; but they have never been entirely missing. Roberta Williams created the Sierra adventures. Brenda Garno, later Brathwaite, later Romero, was one of the key talents behind the Wizardry series.
If you look at recent IGDA surveys, 80+% of all jobs in the industry are held by men. This is a problem, particularly as industry surveys say that a majority of gamers are women. To be sure, they're playing Candy Crush and not Call of Duty, and maybe that doesn't qualify as a "real game" to you, but if so, fuck off. Games are games, games are good, and it's great that more people are playing them. Stop masturbating with your console controller and get a life.
Anita Sirkeesian has told some pretty obvious truths about the treatment of women in games; controversial ones, and others are free to debate them, but "debate" doesn't normally involve threats to rape or kill.
You can like, or not like, Zoe Quinn's work; tastes vary. But her sex life is not, and never has been, any of your fucking business.
Leigh Alexander is one of the most interesting journalists working in games.
This is bullshit, you are assholes, and shut the fuck up.
Deal with the fact that not all games are, or will be in the future, the same corporate crap that you apparently love so much. And understand that the money-grubbing entities who dole out this crap will continue to feed your fix, because it's a far larger market than is reached by the indie people, whom you despise and spit on, can possibly ever hope to reach.
You're attacking people who have problems making their rent, apparently in defense of people who make millions off your fanboy lusts; and somehow feel threatened by people who love games -- as I supposed you do -- but love games that are a little different.
You are assholes.
Worse, you are poor examples of men. Men, good men, defend women. They do not attack them.
To which end: To defend the honor of Anita Sirkeesian, Zoe Quinn, Leigh Alexander, or yes, Anna Anthropy, I will be willing to meet any of you, on horse or afoot, with sword or pistol, at a time and place of your choosing.
It is time this stopped.
Gamasutra had it on their front page, then pulled it down, supposedly b/c of profanity; but it's still cached
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fgamasutra.com%2Fblogs%2FGregCostikyan%2F20140907%2F225017%2FGamersgate_STFU.php
Not involved in any of this, however, I've read the thread from its start. I gotta say, I don't know the particulars, but that rant is pretty spot on.
Well I have several major problems with that rant, but I'm about to go to work and don't have much time. I'll just summarise my main problems briefly:
1. Extremely blinkered. He thinks that everyone who opposes the SJW agenda has been sending threats to Sarkeesian. There are so many things wrong with this supposition it's hard to know where to begin, but I can elaborate later for anyone who really needs it.
2. Games will not magically become "better" (itself a very subjective term) if more women work on them.
3. Many women already working in the games industry are disgusted with the SJWs.
4. The writer uses exactly the same flawed logic as Matt Lees had, which is to say that the gaming market has only just become vibrant, recently, thanks to indie. As point 1...so many things wrong with this it's hard to know where to begin. Quick hint though: games have always been awesome, but now there's more of them. Christ, a couple of months ago plenty of people were complaining about the amount of indie shovelware they have to plough through on Steam. You can't have it both ways! Quantity does not equal quality. And we aren't suddenly awash in great games because more women make them for us.
5. Like nearly everyone in this debate, he misuses the word misogyny.
6. Triple A games sell well because it's what people want to play - that's their choice, leave them the fuck alone.
7. The writer clearly holds people like Sarkeesian and Quinn on a pedestal despite the many vile things they've done. They cannot be touched apparently, and if you dare criticise, to this guy you're a "misogynist" (sic). That's the biggest problem this debate has had. He doesn't want to listen to counterarguments and won't let a little thing like fact knock him from his high horse.
I think this guy should go back to shaving his vagina and leave writing to people who know how to do it.
That's just off the top of my head as I get ready to go to work. Happy to write more later.
This is all screwed up and that vid above puts it in perspective. All this is, is mob mentality. It's a vent for dissatisfied people to have a bitch at something. But there are more important issues for people to invest their anger in.
How about innocent people getting their heads cut off or people starving in their own countries because of poverty. They should put their frustrations there, where actual people could benefit from it. Not in this crap that sows discontent between people. We are truly living in Bizarro world.
Quote from: Ian C on September 09, 2014, 04:55:30 AM
We are truly living in Bizarro world.
without digging very deep, because i literally dont care, there is now a massive storm over the use of the term 'gamer'
such was the tide of vitriol against the ladies in the media from those individuals who cant express themselves without having to resort to mutilation threats or death threats, the backlash from the pro group was 'gamers' are such a bunch of assholes, sites such as RPS mentioned they wanted nothing to do with 'gamers'
and that upset the people who play games, who arent gamers because they dont give a fk if youre a woman, an under represented gay dungeon crawler, or a white knight - they just play games
and theyre rapidly trying to retreat from the gamer people whilst still saying but we play games and boo hooing to RPS because RPS basically said all our readership are c**ts
i have never seen anything like it in my life - its hilarious, its hard to convey here in a world of 'normal' (using the term very loosely!) that out there are vast numbers of people tearing their hair out at the mention of the term gamer, that a gaming website has said we dont like gamers, and theyre still arguing over who slept with who and how that has tarnished news feeds and reviews of games
While I don't necessarily agree with everything Costikyan is saying, I've got no problem at all admitting that he knows a shit-ton more about the games industry than I do, since he's been in it for nearly 40 years.
Quote from: Bison on September 06, 2014, 03:18:07 AM
This has nothing to do with whoever this broad is that you're all talking about and whatever it is she did with her vagina. I don't know and don't care about that, but this is an epic freaking rant against the stupidity and hypocrisy of the PC and feminist agitators in the media. Just watch. Trust me.
LOL. QFT.
I didn't realize Maddox was still doing rants on the 'net. Seemed like he slowed down or quit years ago, and I lost track. He had some hilarious stuff on similar stupidity about seven or eight years ago.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 06, 2014, 10:24:32 AM
Hahaha, that was ace! No wonder it's good - that's Maddox, who made The Best Page in the Universe (http://maddox.xmission.com/), a constant source of merriment when he used to update it regularly.
Edit: Oh, looks like he's updating it regularly again. Cool!
It's about time!
This one is another good example:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=inspirational_blowhards
Quote from: Nefaro on September 09, 2014, 07:22:46 AM
This one is another good example:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=inspirational_blowhards
Really refreshing to see someone tell it like it is.
Ooh, I forgot this juicy bit from Costikyan's drivel:
QuoteHave you suddenly noticed that the game industry is undergoing weird changes as a result of this supposed conspiracy? The next Call of Duty being cancelled in favor of triple-A treatment of the next Anna Anthropy design?
Actually, yes. One of the top guys at the Far Cry developer said something like "if you don't agree with the SJWs you're going to hate Far Cry 4" (words to that effect). They might be the first, they certainly won't be the last. So yes, it is a real concern, and yes, gaming will change to some degree. I wonder how many other games are going to have nonsense shoehorned into them just so that the developers can show how fucking "inclusive" they are.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 09, 2014, 05:12:30 PM
So yes, it is a real concern, and yes, gaming will change to some degree. I wonder how many other games are going to have nonsense shoehorned into them just so that the developers can show how fucking "inclusive" they are.
...so sooner or later we get the ultimate Political Correct MMO Shooter ;) ... where the avatars are only open gay couple -both male and female of intermixed color, age and religion!, and some handicapped strewn in for good intention too - are out on a mission to save seals (not SEALs, Seals are no-go. they had hurt the feelings of people on the planet who once adored BinLaden) from getting clubbed using non lethal weapons with environmental friendly ammo and finally win the mission by exchanging the right arguments with one grumpy evil hunter in an open mike discussion in a town hall somewhere on the Canadian east oast... the planed DLCs will be about wales, then about donkeys getting molested in the Middle East (oh wait, that had to be pulled in preproduction, its was not
cultural sensitive to the dessert tribal donkey-f*#%ers... said former ISIS-terrorist Ibn Hump Himara, the cultural-adviser to the developer team)
Here's your politically correct shooter
http://store.steampowered.com/app/298600/
Quote from: jomni on September 10, 2014, 02:45:05 AM
Here's your politically correct shooter
http://store.steampowered.com/app/298600/
no its racist! and full of sustained violence against unarmed avatars
some of the figures to shoot down look clearly like Vietcong heads - probably only farmers - with their yellow Chinese hats ...
also the use of firearms (here called 'your trusty semi automatic') even abstracted is not good,
the game is probably a secret viral-add launched by the National Rifle Association
;)
ive never read their proposed solution, i dont even know if there is one
- is it to never write a game again where women are sexualised
- write a game where men are sexualised
- or just bitch and moan
surely their new games will be too niche, yes we can all complain about how mysogonistic games are, but for those that want to play 'Handbag shopping Sim 2015', 'Organise your shoe wardrobe 2' and 'sewing with windows 8' - whos going to buy them when AAA stuff hits the shelf?
i maybe wrong but i dont think its going to impact my gaming for a very very long time
Quote from: MikeGER on September 10, 2014, 02:30:56 AM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 09, 2014, 05:12:30 PM
So yes, it is a real concern, and yes, gaming will change to some degree. I wonder how many other games are going to have nonsense shoehorned into them just so that the developers can show how fucking "inclusive" they are.
...so sooner or later we get the ultimate Political Correct MMO Shooter ;) ... where the avatars are only open gay couple -both male and female of intermixed color, age and religion!, and some handicapped strewn in for good intention too - are out on a mission to save seals (not SEALs, Seals are no-go. they had hurt the feelings of people on the planet who once adored BinLaden) from getting clubbed using non lethal weapons with environmental friendly ammo and finally win the mission by exchanging the right arguments with one grumpy evil hunter in an open mike discussion in a town hall somewhere on the Canadian east oast... the planed DLCs will be about wales, then about donkeys getting molested in the Middle East (oh wait, that had to be pulled in preproduction, its was not cultural sensitive to the dessert tribal donkey-f*#%ers... said former ISIS-terrorist Ibn Hump Himara, the cultural-adviser to the developer team)
ROFL!
O0
'Safe targets' in games have been identified as white, middle-aged, straight, working-class males. Simply, because they are not in any demographic groups that you could possibly offend.
Also, they really don't give a shit.
Quote from: Ian C on September 10, 2014, 08:51:20 AM
Also, they really don't give a shit.
this
for those who want to recreate the last five minutes of my life, chew up a custard cream but dont swallow, take in some tea so that the whole custardy biscuity goodness can get swirled around and then try and push it down your nose before it comes out of your eyes as you try and stifle what can only be described as a Guffaw
I haven't read all 11 pages, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out.
The scandal has expanded to an insider list of writers and editors as to what they should cover:
QuoteA second tranche of leaked emails from the secret GameJournoPros mailing list, dated September 2014 and published today by Breitbart London, reveals video game journalists insulting popular YouTubers and laughing off the prospect of readers challenging them about ethical violations.
This new leak follows an earlier release of emails dated August, which showed games journalists joking about having sex with public relations executives and game developers.
Here is a fantastic video by Christine Sommers of the American Enterprise Institute deconstructing the arguments of people like Sarkeesian:
Brad Wardell has a good post here:
http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/457868/Gamergate_Escalates
QuoteI'm not going to do a moral equivalence here. In my mind, the balance of wrongdoing is heavily weighted on the opponents of #gamergate. Mainly, because its opponents have had a long head start of character assassination and harassment. I know some of my friends in the media will be appalled by that but that's mainly because they haven't seen the shit storm directed at anyone who dares not support the "social justice" narrative for the past few years.
Quote from: RooksBailey on September 22, 2014, 04:10:49 PM
Brad Wardell has a good post here:
http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/457868/Gamergate_Escalates
QuoteI'm not going to do a moral equivalence here. In my mind, the balance of wrongdoing is heavily weighted on the opponents of #gamergate. Mainly, because its opponents have had a long head start of character assassination and harassment. I know some of my friends in the media will be appalled by that but that's mainly because they haven't seen the shit storm directed at anyone who dares not support the "social justice" narrative for the past few years.
"Social Justice Warriors". ;D
I'll remember to use SJW in the future. It will save some typing when complaining about them constantly attempting to invent boogeymen.
Brad shouldn't really talk too much. People jumped on those sexual harassment allegations - which he sort of admitted on the Qt3 forums, let's remember - in droves in the wake of the World of Magic disaster, especially after failure to comply with his Gamer's Bill of Rights
Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
More
That was Point 1, FWIW.
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on September 23, 2014, 05:36:04 AM
which he sort of admitted on the Qt3 forums, let's remember
Unless I missed something, he did nothing of the sort; he admitted having a certain attitude in the office, meaning he didn't pander to the "I take offense at everything" crowd, and he offered no apology for it.
QuoteGamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
More
That was Point 1, FWIW.
They did offer refunds. Not only that, but those of us who preordered WoM got FE and LH free.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 23, 2014, 02:34:56 PM
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on September 23, 2014, 05:36:04 AM
which he sort of admitted on the Qt3 forums, let's remember
Unless I missed something, he did nothing of the sort; he admitted having a certain attitude in the office, meaning he didn't pander to the "I take offense at everything" crowd, and he offered no apology for it.
QuoteGamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
More
That was Point 1, FWIW.
They did offer refunds. Not only that, but those of us who preordered WoM got FE and LH free.
In some countries, that would have been a confession of sorts. But indeed standards can be quite different across the globe, or between states in the Union.
And the refunds weren't for everyone, you needed to have bought the game before a certain date. I got a 20% discount for instance.
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on September 23, 2014, 04:24:59 PM
In some countries, that would have been a confession of sorts.
I'm glad I don't live in one! He didn't admit to any
wrongdoing.
QuoteAnd the refunds weren't for everyone, you needed to have bought the game before a certain date. I got a 20% discount for instance.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that if you actually followed their support, tried all their suggestions, and could still show it wouldn't run, you got the refund.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 23, 2014, 04:47:21 PM
I'm glad I don't live in one! He didn't admit to any wrongdoing.
The facts are that both lawsuits - employee vs. Wardell, and Stardock vs. employee - were thrown out with
prejudice by Federal courts. My law-fu isn't great, but the "with prejudice" bit I reckon means that both cases were found to be entirely devoid of merit for being considered any further by the Court. This usually happens when both parties fail to produce any evidence before the court. Such concerted action by both parties in both lawsuits is rational when there has been some sort of dealing going behind the scenes. And a weirdly worded apology letter surface signed by the employee, which to me, totally looked like having written by Wardell's lawyer. Probably the only "public" bit of the deal.
My personal opinion - note here
personal - is that a drunken night out got out of hand, escalating quickly into a situation which seriously damaged Wardell's reputation. This would probably have received little - or any - attention, if World of Magic would have been the product it had been advertised and/or Wardell's hadn't been so vocal in supporting "Gamer's rights" on the Internet. Let's say it was a perfect PR SNAFU.
This #Gamergate thing got started with much little less 'facts' than Wardell's vilification on the Internet. And Wardell's "character assassination" and vilification was nothing compared with the tsunami of drivel which the Internet tubes are struggling to drain.
Quote from: Huw the Poo
QuoteAnd the refunds weren't for everyone, you needed to have bought the game before a certain date. I got a 20% discount for instance.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that if you actually followed their support, tried all their suggestions, and could still show it wouldn't run, you got the refund.
It's been four years now, and I can't find the thread, but I remember only people who pre-ordered WoM were able to get refunds with no questions made. I didn't pre-order, and then what is described in the thread below applied
http://forums.elementalgame.com/392846
Which is a bit like turning around on the grandiose Gamers' Bill Of Rights.
A bit. I took a leap of faith in Indiana Jones style, and hoped for the best rather than pressing the issue as that Danish person in the link above did. I also wanted to support Stardock, which didn't quite struck me as sporting an EA-like attitude. This seemed as a wise course of action when Wardell's himself stepped down into the development trenches to try to make World of Magic less of a disaster. He deserves credit for that, even if quickly became apparent that was a bit like one of Hercules' Tasks.
The next thing I ever heard from Stardock on this particular topic was this link
http://www.stardock.com/media/Mailers/fallen_enchantress/elemental_fe_release_upgrade/index.html
appearing on my e-mail.
Can anyone recommend a Steam Curator that is thorough, unbiased and avoids the SJW crud that RPS has been peddling? Given that criteria, who would you recommend I stay away from?
TIA
and then this happened:-
http://battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=116804&highlight=women
'why are there no females represented in Red Thunder, we know women fought for Russia in WW2'
this could be the tiny snowball start of a massive avalanche of mindless c**ts that now go around established non-female representing games trying to cause trouble
Aye, Geek. It's pitiful, it really is.
Quote from: Moreb on September 23, 2014, 11:28:51 PM
Can anyone recommend a Steam Curator that is thorough, unbiased and avoids the SJW crud that RPS has been peddling? Given that criteria, who would you recommend I stay away from?
TIA
I don't know whether Totalbiscuit is a curator (I suspect he is) but he is taking an extremely reasonable stance in the whole thing and has earned loads of respect from me. I'll see what else I can find later.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 22, 2014, 01:19:49 PM
I haven't read all 11 pages, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out.
The scandal has expanded to an insider list of writers and editors as to what they should cover:
QuoteA second tranche of leaked emails from the secret GameJournoPros mailing list, dated September 2014 and published today by Breitbart London, reveals video game journalists insulting popular YouTubers and laughing off the prospect of readers challenging them about ethical violations.
This new leak follows an earlier release of emails dated August, which showed games journalists joking about having sex with public relations executives and game developers.
I know it's a little TMZ of me, but I'd love to see that archive...
Brant, the whole archive hasn't been released (yet) but the reporting began here (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite) on Breitbart. They've done a few more stories since.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 24, 2014, 01:48:11 PM
Aye, Geek. It's pitiful, it really is.
Quote from: Moreb on September 23, 2014, 11:28:51 PM
Can anyone recommend a Steam Curator that is thorough, unbiased and avoids the SJW crud that RPS has been peddling? Given that criteria, who would you recommend I stay away from?
TIA
I don't know whether Totalbiscuit is a curator (I suspect he is) but he is taking an extremely reasonable stance in the whole thing and has earned loads of respect from me. I'll see what else I can find later.
Totalbiscuit is a curator.
Turns out he's the top-rated curator!
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 24, 2014, 03:40:49 AM
and then this happened:-
http://battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=116804&highlight=women
'why are there no females represented in Red Thunder, we know women fought for Russia in WW2'
this could be the tiny snowball start of a massive avalanche of mindless c**ts that now go around established non-female representing games trying to cause trouble
It's true that the Imagined Victimhood Coalition goes to ridiculous levels on a regular basis.
But this is one historical example where I'd support a suggestion. For some specific unit types in small doses, perhaps. Not for any social warrior standpoint, as implied, but for a little extra historical detail.
I did turn my nose up at the female pilots on Sid Meier's Ace Patrol. (Female scout pilots in WW1?! WTF is this?! Candyland?!) There's no problem making that some kind of fantasy option that can be disabled, as they did with the sequel. But forcefully imposing modern social standards, culture, and other niceties on humanity's largely difficult and brutish history is an injustice to the study and understanding of such history. I feel like it's an attempt at re-writing history which just ruins the reason for knowing history in the first place. Even if that medium is just a video game based on it. Much more so with broadcast media such as news, documentaries, etc which increasingly get this treatment.
Like you, I think the overzealous drama queens (Brad's "Social Justice Warriors") are the annoying factor in the whole situation.
Ron Swansons unite!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toptenz.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F02%2Ffart-in-car-570x321.jpg&hash=05d446b1c9478c39dd39d99eededcce2e4a39d31)
Thank you Huw and Bletchely. Ive joined their ranks.
I have been dissatisfied with RPS for some time.
Quote from: Moreb on September 24, 2014, 06:09:02 PMI have been dissatisfied with RPS for some time.
Hang out here! ;D
Quote from: Moreb on September 24, 2014, 06:09:02 PM
I have been dissatisfied with RPS for some time.
I feel almost betrayed by RPS. For a long time I really thought they were the good guys. Slowly, John Walker's bullshit became harder to ignore (his self-imposed three month exile was bliss) and then GamerGate happened, and now they've been revealed as the lunatics they really are. The worst part is that everything I've read by them is now suspect. Some of the games on my wishlist are there because of RPS recommendations, and now I'm inclined to just remove them. Gone Home, for example, which I now know to be nothing like the game I expected it to be and - as some would have it - championed by the SJW brigade due to its content. The GamerGaters point out that sites like Polygon gave it 10/10 whereas - again, as they would have it - it's rather poor and only got where it did because of its themes.
I don't know. I haven't played it and now I almost certainly won't, but as I said, it's made me suspicious of every game I've ever heard about in the gaming media, and that's what pisses me off.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 24, 2014, 06:59:58 PM
Quote from: Moreb on September 24, 2014, 06:09:02 PM
I have been dissatisfied with RPS for some time.
I feel almost betrayed by RPS. For a long time I really thought they were the good guys. Slowly, John Walker's bullshit became harder to ignore (his self-imposed three month exile was bliss) and then GamerGate happened, and now they've been revealed as the lunatics they really are. The worst part is that everything I've read by them is now suspect. Some of the games on my wishlist are there because of RPS recommendations, and now I'm inclined to just remove them. Gone Home, for example, which I now know to be nothing like the game I expected it to be and - as some would have it - championed by the SJW brigade due to its content. The GamerGaters point out that sites like Polygon gave it 10/10 whereas - again, as they would have it - it's rather poor and only got where it did because of its themes.
I don't know. I haven't played it and now I almost certainly won't, but as I said, it's made me suspicious of every game I've ever heard about in the gaming media, and that's what pisses me off.
I certainly can't recommend it. It was praised by the "storytelling" but it was as linear as a movie or a book can be. Which kind of defeats the point of being a video game. And I can't say the story itself was fresh. Not really.
Critics and reviews are by definition "subjective" - that is, every reviewer will choose to talk about certain aspects over others, and what one person will find interesting/realistic/engaging/etc. another person can find boring/arbitrary/alienating/etc. Taking a bunch of subjective reviews usually gives me a better sense of what's the game (or the movie, or the book) about. There's no aspect in a game that can be measured objectively other than stability, and that nowadays changes quickly.
I use the critics basically as an "alert" to check things out (usually I take a look at the devs' webpage to get a sense of who they actually are). Then I go into Steam and check the user reviews. And this isn't just about checking what's the proportion of thumbs up/down. I actually read a good portion of the reviews - there are a couple games I have bought because of the "negative" reviews they got :)
Of course, the degree of effort I put in doing homework is proportional to the price of the game. A 10$ game which is an stinker isn't a big deal. A 80$ game which turns out to be shite IS a big deal.
by way of PM, someone let me know that some articles are been put behind a paygate now at RPS - you went the best most current content? you have to pay for it
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 25, 2014, 02:56:16 AM
by way of PM, someone let me know that some articles are been put behind a paygate now at RPS - you went the best most current content? you have to pay for it
And yet, if I go to their site, I see a ton of content free of charge. I'm really not sure what this even means. They have additional subscriber content...and? A lot of sites do the same.
i dont know - it was just a 'hey, guess what mesage', i havent looked into it - apparently theres a multi page thread in the site feedback section with non happy people asking why and what the implications are
an interesting summation of where GG is now:
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/09/09/gamergate-reveals-silencing-women/
Of note, follow the links where Quinn has been lurking in some of the 4chan rooms and posted screenshots of their 'planning' - it's pretty nuts
there are some crazy people out there.
for me it boils very basically down to this
Man reviews game X - it does this, you do that, stuff blows up, explosions, guns, bank jobs, raids, soldiers, war, graphics, helicopters, rocket launchers - awesomeness
Woman reviews game X - it does this, you do that, stuff blows up, explosions, guns, bank jobs, raids, soldiers, war, graphics, helicopters, rocket launchers - awesomeness, but why do the women have to wear torn tops, and hot pants, and the male character is clearly attracted to her
just leave it be - the vast majority just want this - 'it does this, you do that, stuff blows up, explosions, guns, bank jobs, raids, soldiers, war, graphics, helicopters, rocket launchers - awesomeness' and if its women who consistently add this 'but why do the women have to wear torn tops, and hot pants, and the male character is clearly attracted to her' then youre undermining your stance
if you want to write 'but why do the women have to wear torn tops, and hot pants, and the male character is clearly attracted to her' then take it away from games journalism
Except that few besides the crazies are saying that. What they're saying is "Why does it ALWAYS have to be exactly like this?"
What's been interesting has been the responses from some developers, where they talk about falling into lazy habits without even realizing it. Then they read some of this and come back with "Huh...why are we using the exact same trope every single time?" Anything that leads to more creativity and less 'same thing in a slightly different shade of brown' is good, in my opinion.
This is a different individual, but the issue has now made national headlines. I wonder how many members of the press she has slept with?
http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/us/2014/10/14/pkg-burke-female-game-developer-death-threats.cnn&hpt=hp_t2&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F (http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/us/2014/10/14/pkg-burke-female-game-developer-death-threats.cnn&hpt=hp_t2&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 15, 2014, 06:44:18 AM
This is a different individual, but the issue has now made national headlines. I wonder how many members of the press she has slept with?
She's married, and while that's not a bar to philandering, my guess is none.
The real headline is that there are miscreants out there making threats about this.
I cannot believe this. I hope the cops find whoever is behind it fast and lock them up for a good long time. Hopefully in a women's prison.
Quote from: LongBlade on October 15, 2014, 07:24:46 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 15, 2014, 06:44:18 AM
This is a different individual, but the issue has now made national headlines. I wonder how many members of the press she has slept with?
She's married, and while that's not a bar to philandering, my guess is none.
The real headline is that there are miscreants out there making threats about this.
I cannot believe this. I hope the cops find whoever is behind it fast and lock them up for a good long time. Hopefully in a women's prison.
dude...while I agree with your sentiment, lighten the fuck up.
this is what happens when internet fuckwits go too far.
you don't have to agree with Sarkeesian
but you don't threaten a massacre if she speaks
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/15/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-games-critic-cancels-talk
QuoteThe feminist pop culture critic Anita Sarkeesian has been forced to cancel a talk at Utah State University, after a threat of a "Montreal Massacre-style attack".
Sarkeesian, who is best known for her YouTube series "Tropes v Women in Video Games", assessing various anti-feminist trends in gaming, was scheduled to talk at the university on Wednesday, when the unsigned email was sent.
The author of the email threatened that if the talk was not cancelled, they would carry out an attack in the style of the 1989 Montreal massacre, when Marc Lépine murdered 14 women, claiming he was "fighting feminism".
"I have at my disposal a semi-automatic rifle, multiple pistols, and a collection of pipe bombs," the letter said. "This will be the deadliest school shooting in American history and I'm giving you a chance to stop it."
"You have 24 hours to cancel Sarkeesian's talk ... Anita Sarkeesian is everything wrong with the feminist woman, and she is going to die screaming like the craven little whore that she is if you let her come to USU. I will write my manifesto in her spilled blood, and you will all bear witness to what feminist lies and poison have done to the men of America."
Initially, Sarkeesian stated her intention to hold the talk despite the threat, but was forced to back down after the discovering that it was impossible to prevent guns being taken to the event.
"Forced to cancel my talk at USU after receiving death threats because police wouldn't take steps to prevent concealed firearms at the event," she tweeted. "Requested pat downs or metal detectors after mass shooting threat but because of Utah's open carry laws police wouldn't do firearm searches."
The school confirmed Sarkeesian's explanation in a statement. "During the discussion, Sarkeesian asked if weapons will be permitted at the speaking venue. Sarkeesian was informed that, in accordance with the State of Utah law regarding the carrying of firearms, if a person has a valid concealed firearm permit and is carrying a weapon, they are permitted to have it at the venue."
Sarkeesian was the subject of a hate campaign before she began the Tropes v Women in Video Games series. A fundraiser on Kickstarter two years ago led to vandalism of her Wikipedia page, a DDoS attack on her website, and the creation of a game called "Beat Up Anita Sarkessian".
Quote
Initially, Sarkeesian stated her intention to hold the talk despite the threat, but was forced to back down after the discovering that it was impossible to prevent guns being taken to the event.
"Forced to cancel my talk at USU after receiving death threats because police wouldn't take steps to prevent concealed firearms at the event," she tweeted. "Requested pat downs or metal detectors after mass shooting threat but because of Utah's open carry laws police wouldn't do firearm searches."
The school confirmed Sarkeesian's explanation in a statement. "During the discussion, Sarkeesian asked if weapons will be permitted at the speaking venue. Sarkeesian was informed that, in accordance with the State of Utah law regarding the carrying of firearms, if a person has a valid concealed firearm permit and is carrying a weapon, they are permitted to have it at the venue."
Good for them! Finally, an official takes the stand in favor of the 2nd Amendment. One crazy makes a violent threat so we should trample on the Constitution? I think law enforcement needs to do everything within its power to catch the individual or individuals responsible for making this kind of a threat, but to strip others of their Constitutional rights would have been criminal and, especially in this instance, would have only made the venue more dangerous. Bravo to USU.
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on September 24, 2014, 07:50:18 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 24, 2014, 06:59:58 PM
Quote from: Moreb on September 24, 2014, 06:09:02 PM
I have been dissatisfied with RPS for some time.
I feel almost betrayed by RPS. For a long time I really thought they were the good guys. Slowly, John Walker's bullshit became harder to ignore (his self-imposed three month exile was bliss) and then GamerGate happened, and now they've been revealed as the lunatics they really are. The worst part is that everything I've read by them is now suspect. Some of the games on my wishlist are there because of RPS recommendations, and now I'm inclined to just remove them. Gone Home, for example, which I now know to be nothing like the game I expected it to be and - as some would have it - championed by the SJW brigade due to its content. The GamerGaters point out that sites like Polygon gave it 10/10 whereas - again, as they would have it - it's rather poor and only got where it did because of its themes.
I don't know. I haven't played it and now I almost certainly won't, but as I said, it's made me suspicious of every game I've ever heard about in the gaming media, and that's what pisses me off.
I certainly can't recommend it. It was praised by the "storytelling" but it was as linear as a movie or a book can be. Which kind of defeats the point of being a video game. And I can't say the story itself was fresh. Not really.
Critics and reviews are by definition "subjective" - that is, every reviewer will choose to talk about certain aspects over others, and what one person will find interesting/realistic/engaging/etc. another person can find boring/arbitrary/alienating/etc. Taking a bunch of subjective reviews usually gives me a better sense of what's the game (or the movie, or the book) about. There's no aspect in a game that can be measured objectively other than stability, and that nowadays changes quickly.
I use the critics basically as an "alert" to check things out (usually I take a look at the devs' webpage to get a sense of who they actually are). Then I go into Steam and check the user reviews. And this isn't just about checking what's the proportion of thumbs up/down. I actually read a good portion of the reviews - there are a couple games I have bought because of the "negative" reviews they got :)
Of course, the degree of effort I put in doing homework is proportional to the price of the game. A 10$ game which is an stinker isn't a big deal. A 80$ game which turns out to be shite IS a big deal.
My original impressions of Gone Home from a post in January
Im not exactly sure what the hell is going on here. All these reviews have gushed over games such as The Stanley Parable., Dear Ester, and Gone Home. Dear Ester I found to be boring and not all that thought provoking. The Stanley Parable I found to be less boring, and slightly more thought provoking. Which brings us to Gone Home. Best game of 2013 on quite a few lists. So I think, lets give it a shot.
When it was done I was like "are you fuckin kidding me". It, like the other games mentioned, is not a game in any way. Its a narrative tale, told through you walking around a computer generated environment. Zero gameplay elements. The designers just wanted to tell you a story, not make your own, or feel like your contributing. Now I can understand some slight entertainment value in these titles, but when people are calling Gone Home game of the year, I have to wonder what the hell is going through these peoples heads. Gone Home is literally a love story that could have been easily found in any teen book section at Barnes and Noble. None of these games have left me with the memories or stimulated my mind as say the story in Red Dead Redemption, Dishonored, or Sleeping Dogs.
Anyways, am I the only asshat playing these "games", and wondering what the hell is all the hoopla about?
I am not sure what to think of all of this. It just seems like so much pointless drama. I think games (especially by large developers) are often extremely derivative, sexist, and boring. I think many in gaming journalism (regardless of gender) have serious conflicts of interest. All of this was predictable when game development studios began creating products rather than games.
I am all for people who object to the sexual objectification of women in games. Yet, you can't make a stand on the internet today on anything without subjecting yourself to the crazies. Period. I am still shocked when I hear people complain about Twitter (especially people who claim this as a justification for leaving the industry). Twitter is a cesspool of hate. For some reason, some people completely lose any sense of decency or manners when they take to Twitter. Its a fact of life, not a reason to leave your job. If you can't handle hate on Twitter, don't use it.
Its a shame when death threats are made over any topic. Its a fact of life on the internet these days, which is why I try and keep a low profile. This whole GamersGate thing is way too much drama to me. To me this is an extension of the harassment game developers used to complain about when people say their games are derivative and suck. How dare someone take to Twitter to tell them they suck. How dare mere gamers interrupt their "private" conversations on Twitter. Game developers, male and female alike, have claimed persecution for a long time.
There is so much hate on the internet, it is hard for me to get emotional about a particular flavor of it.
Quote from: bboyer66 on October 15, 2014, 09:19:56 AM
Anyways, am I the only asshat playing these "games", and wondering what the hell is all the hoopla about?
Better you than me. :P
Those really did just look like simple stories, at a digital store glance. I suppose pseudo-gamers would be the ones putting them on their 'Best Of' lists.
Longblade, part of the problem is that while professional victims like Sarkeesian are being threatened with whatever, people on the other side are too, but you don't hear about it because the "media" is hostile to those people. Did you know, for example, that shortly after this exploded, allies of Sarkeesian managed to dox a 10-year-old boy (who was making much more cogent arguments than they were, I should add) and threaten violence to him? I bet you didn't see that reported on Rock Paper Shotgun, huh?
Quote from: bboyer66 on October 15, 2014, 09:19:56 AMNone of these games have left me with the memories or stimulated my mind as say the story in Red Dead Redemption, Dishonored, or Sleeping Dogs.
Great post, bboyer66, and that's a really good point. I've played games like Proteus and Dear Esther and got almost nothing out of them. Conversely, I remember playing one of the Call of Duty games for the first time; one of the first things to happen in that game was, as a Russian soldier defending my home village, I repelled the invading force with blood pounding in my ears, I crawled through a trench watching my comrades being killed around me, and then, looking up at the sky, I saw a crapload of tanks flying over my head as they crossed the trench! I can remember to this day how I trembled with excitement.
That, right there, is gaming. That's why I play games. None of this SJW-friendly shit has ever made me feel like that.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 15, 2014, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on October 15, 2014, 07:24:46 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 15, 2014, 06:44:18 AM
This is a different individual, but the issue has now made national headlines. I wonder how many members of the press she has slept with?
She's married, and while that's not a bar to philandering, my guess is none.
The real headline is that there are miscreants out there making threats about this.
I cannot believe this. I hope the cops find whoever is behind it fast and lock them up for a good long time. Hopefully in a women's prison.
dude...while I agree with your sentiment, lighten the fuck up.
Hey, I can't buy the sex tape yet. I'm just a little tense.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/15/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-games-critic-cancels-talk
Apparently, some people want to commit mass murder?
Quote from: jomni on October 17, 2014, 01:28:02 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/15/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-games-critic-cancels-talk
Apparently, some people want to commit mass murder?
Dude - I posted that
exact same link about 6 posts up ;)
Maddox speaks out about "Sexism In Games".. back in June.
:2funny:
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames
*Read the article, don't just watch the short intro vid*
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 17, 2014, 04:58:05 AM
Quote from: jomni on October 17, 2014, 01:28:02 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/15/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-games-critic-cancels-talk
Apparently, some people want to commit mass murder?
Dude - I posted that exact same link about 6 posts up ;)
Sorry. I don't really follow this thread but thought of it when I read the article.
Quote from: jomni on October 17, 2014, 07:19:37 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 17, 2014, 04:58:05 AM
Quote from: jomni on October 17, 2014, 01:28:02 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/15/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-games-critic-cancels-talk
Apparently, some people want to commit mass murder?
Dude - I posted that exact same link about 6 posts up ;)
Sorry. I don't really follow this thread but thought of it when I read the article.
no harm, no foul :)
I'm married; I'm used to people ignoring me
gamers:-
please god dont ever let people think im one of these
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 17, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
please god dont ever let people think im one of these
I've heard you say worse playing Endless Space. :P
The point of the video, though, was that these people had a lot riding on the game they were playing, and it pointed out that most other sports are the same in this regard. I did have to check the date on the video though, seeing as it was Eurogamer...yep, early 2013. Something tells me they wouldn't have had such a sympathetic editorial line had they done it today.
I'd rather be "bloke who swears at a game" than one of those "emancipated white knighting take-offense-on-behalf-of-all-oppressed-women self-appointed moral police
why must there be so many big boobies in our games?!!!!" dickheads though. Personally. :)
there's some funny stuff here
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/columnists/a-guide-to-the-ideas-and-words-of-gamergate/article21146512/
no, I don't agree with it all, but I can still appreciate the tongue-in-cheek humor with which it is written
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 17, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
gamers:-
please god dont ever let people think im one of these
Holy Crap! Those kids should be ashamed of themselves. They give every gamer a bad name.
Felicia Day puts in her two cents...and gets doxxed!
http://time.com/3535619/felicia-day-writes-about-gamergate-gets-information-hacked/
There should be some serious law enforcement attention on this digital hooliganism. Releasing private information and threats of rape and mass murder might seem like mean but harmless fun to the perpetrators but there need to be some lines that bring consequences when crossed. >:(
Quote from: Staggerwing on October 25, 2014, 10:31:31 AM
There should be some serious law enforcement attention on this digital hooliganism. Releasing private information and threats of rape and mass murder might seem like mean but harmless fun to the perpetrators but there need to be some lines that bring consequences when crossed. >:(
Agreed. I haven't seen the direct quotes, but from what I've read there has been some serious crossing-of-the-line that ought to bring legal repercussions.
It happens to prominent Gamergaters too. You don't see those reported in mainstream media, of course.
if Gus was ever unwilling we would all be in a bit of trouble.
Quote from: Staggerwing on October 25, 2014, 10:31:31 AM
There should be some serious law enforcement attention on this digital hooliganism. Releasing private information and threats of rape and mass murder might seem like mean but harmless fun to the perpetrators but there need to be some lines that bring consequences when crossed. >:(
I see these punk kids on most large game chat systems (check out the main chat in free games like WT or WOT on a regular basis). There is often one or a few hanging around spouting foul-mouthed comments (usually racist ones) and slinging threats at people. The vast majority are full of shit and of no consequence.
They're just stupid man-children with tantrum & attention issues who just want to piss in other people's fun. Probably the same type of shitheads who turn into school shooters at the most extreme end of the sprectrum.
It's a draw back of the internet. People will often say things that they'd lack the courage to say to someone in person. Hence the reason I turn off general chat chants 99% of the time when I play an MMO.
I don't accept "It's just the internet" as an excuse. If someone baselessly calls someone else a thief in print or on TV there are legal consequences. Why should someone get a pass if they threaten mass murder instead?
Quote from: Huw the Poo on October 25, 2014, 11:22:16 AM
It happens to prominent Gamergaters too. You don't see those reported in mainstream media, of course.
to be honest, I haven't seen it reported anywhere. & I have been monitoring a lot of message traffic on this issue.I have seen accusations a personal information being released, but I have not seen or seen any reports of rats against personal property by anyone on the anti gamergate side.
if it is happening, it is incredibly well buried. And certainly has not risen to the point where law enforcement is getting involved because of mortal threats against public speakers
even more telling, it is virtually impossible to find any public statement on the pro gamergate side from anyone willing to use their real name. It is almost as if they are afraid of the scrutiny that might come with it. they realize that there is no way to publicly defend rats that have been made against women on the Internet. So there is no chance that they will try to go and attempt to defend the behavior.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 25, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
I have not seen or seen any reports of rats against personal property by anyone on the anti gamergate side.
if it is happening, it is incredibly well buried.
Just monitor #gamergate on Twitter, or /r/Kotakuinaction. Mainstream media won't report on it because it doesn't suit their agenda, but it's happening all the same. As I said upthread, anti-Gamergaters even threatened a 10-year-old boy.
Quoteeven more telling, it is virtually impossible to find any public statement on the pro gamergate side from anyone willing to use their real name. It is almost as if they are afraid of the scrutiny that might come with it. they realize that there is no way to publicly defend rats that have been made against women on the Internet. So there is no chance that they will try to go and attempt to defend the behavior.
And therein lies the problem. If you speak in favour of Gamergate you're immediately (mis)labeled a misogynist (I don't think many people in the debate understand what that word actually means). It's easy to publically deride Gamergate because that makes you look - to the ignorant - like someone who "just wants equality" or whatever, whereas if you publically laud Gamergate you must be a woman-hating troll. This is
precisely the root of the problem, as I have been saying in this very thread for months now.
Again, you need only to watch #gamergate, /r/kotakuinaction or indeed 8chan. In fact, some developers and other interested parties - including women, black people and others who the anti-Gamergaters are purportedly "defending" -
have publically criticised anti-Gamergaters. That's how the #notyourshield hashtag was born.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on October 25, 2014, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 25, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
I have not seen or seen any reports of rats against personal property by anyone on the anti gamergate side.
if it is happening, it is incredibly well buried.
Just monitor #gamergate on Twitter, or /r/Kotakuinaction. Mainstream media won't report on it because it doesn't suit their agenda, but it's happening all the same. As I said upthread, anti-Gamergaters even threatened a 10-year-old boy.
Quoteeven more telling, it is virtually impossible to find any public statement on the pro gamergate side from anyone willing to use their real name. It is almost as if they are afraid of the scrutiny that might come with it. they realize that there is no way to publicly defend rats that have been made against women on the Internet. So there is no chance that they will try to go and attempt to defend the behavior.
And therein lies the problem. If you speak in favour of Gamergate you're immediately (mis)labeled a misogynist (I don't think many people in the debate understand what that word actually means). It's easy to publically deride Gamergate because that makes you look - to the ignorant - like someone who "just wants equality" or whatever, whereas if you publically laud Gamergate you must be a woman-hating troll. This is precisely the root of the problem, as I have been saying in this very thread for months now.
Again, you need only to watch #gamergate, /r/kotakuinaction or indeed 8chan. In fact, some developers and other interested parties - including women, black people and others who the anti-Gamergaters are purportedly "defending" - have publically criticised anti-Gamergaters. That's how the #notyourshield hashtag was born.
'Mainstream Media' doesn't really report on it, PERIOD (I'm talking games press) because the vast majority of people are barely aware of what really is a tempest in a teapot. There is no vast conspiracy. Rather, there is a complete lack of interest, in part because there is no coherent, cohesive call for anything from the GG side. Instead, it's just a mass of hundreds of voices asking for dozens of things. There is nothing unified for most people to latch a narrative to.
As for fringe people tossing out labels, that exists across the board, and those people are best left ignored as in any other discussion. And for the most part, they are.
Well, by mainstream media I meant mainstream games media. But as someone pointed out earlier, there's a horribly-written Time piece about some of it.
So here is a game advertised on Steam called the TesserAct. The quick description of the game is:
QuoteIndie, Puzzle, Female Protagonist
I mean, REALLY? This is what passes for a description now?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2014, 06:46:41 PM
So here is a game advertised on Steam called the TesserAct. The quick description of the game is:
QuoteIndie, Puzzle, Female Protagonist
I mean, REALLY? This is what passes for a description now?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. They'll release a DLC where you can play her fully-clothed and asexual.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2014, 06:46:41 PM
I mean, REALLY? This is what passes for a description now?
Welcome to the Brave New World of tagging. Those aren't "descriptions" meant for people, but for the benefit of search engines (which are keyword based). In particular, you get to see by default the tags the most people has attached to that game. I find it can hardly get more factual than that, and sometimes the combinations have a bit of a haiku like quality. Some other examples
IL-2: Battle Of StalingradSimulation, Flight, World War II, Historical, Action
Civilization VTurn-Based Strategy, Strategy, Turn-Based, Multiplayer, Historical, 4X, Singleplayer, Hex Grid, Grand Strategy, Co-op, Replay Value, Moddable, Tactical, Great Soundtrack, Touch-Friendly, Simulation, Diplomacy, Economy, Classic, Education
Alien: IsolationHorror, Survival Horror, Atmospheric, Sci-fi, Aliens, First-Person, Survival, Stealth, Space, Female Protagonist, Singleplayer, Action, Adventure, Movie, FPS, Great Soundtrack, Difficult, Funny, Gore, Shooter
If you search for "rubbish" you get far less results than it was common a couple months back (tags eventually got "moderated")
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_7_7_151_12&term=rubbish
Gotta love the "discovery component" of keyword-based searches. Otherwise I'd have never learnt of the existence of this
http://store.steampowered.com/app/294830/
even funnier is to see Arma III to be in the list of "Related Products" ;D
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on October 27, 2014, 08:11:42 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2014, 06:46:41 PM
I mean, REALLY? This is what passes for a description now?
Welcome to the Brave New World of tagging. Those aren't "descriptions" meant for people, but for the benefit of search engines (which are keyword based). In particular, you get to see by default the tags the most people has attached to that game. I find it can hardly get more factual than that, and sometimes the combinations have a bit of a haiku like quality. Some other examples
IL-2: Battle Of Stalingrad
Simulation, Flight, World War II, Historical, Action
Civilization V
Turn-Based Strategy, Strategy, Turn-Based, Multiplayer, Historical, 4X, Singleplayer, Hex Grid, Grand Strategy, Co-op, Replay Value, Moddable, Tactical, Great Soundtrack, Touch-Friendly, Simulation, Diplomacy, Economy, Classic, Education
Alien: Isolation
Horror, Survival Horror, Atmospheric, Sci-fi, Aliens, First-Person, Survival, Stealth, Space, Female Protagonist, Singleplayer, Action, Adventure, Movie, FPS, Great Soundtrack, Difficult, Funny, Gore, Shooter
If you search for "rubbish" you get far less results than it was common a couple months back (tags eventually got "moderated")
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_7_7_151_12&term=rubbish
Gotta love the "discovery component" of keyword-based searches. Otherwise I'd have never learnt of the existence of this
http://store.steampowered.com/app/294830/
even funnier is to see Arma III to be in the list of "Related Products" ;D
That makes it even more pathetic. There are people out there actually searching for games with a "female protagonist"?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2014, 09:19:25 PM
That makes it even more pathetic. There are people out there actually searching for games with a "female protagonist"?
There's also people out there search out for "nudity"
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_7_7_151_12&term=nudity
and of course "family friendly"
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_7_7_151_12&term=family+friendly
If coprophagia was socially accepted, probably there would be people searching out that on Steam :)
DO NOT google nude Gus!
I just ran every antivirus/malware program I have.
Gus.... you dirty dirty man!
Quote from: Bletchley_Geek on October 27, 2014, 09:32:09 PM
There's also people out there search out for "nudity"
Yeah!There are some good games on that list too. :)
Wil Wheaton weighs in
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/11/anonymous-trolls-are-destroying-online-games-heres-how-to-stop-them/
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 12, 2014, 11:04:58 PM
Wil Wheaton weighs in
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/11/anonymous-trolls-are-destroying-online-games-heres-how-to-stop-them/
And he managed to plug season 3 of Table Top :/
Too much bullshit in that piece for me to criticise while I'm on my phone. I just don't understand what the motivation is, other than drumming up publicity for themselves.
I dont see anything wrong with the article but more frankly I dont really give a crap about all the nerd rage that is happening around this. Let the market sort it out. As the demographics of the gaming industry change so will the games because in the end those game programmers/developers who want to be successful will make games that appeals to their markets.
If some gamers dont like that they can go and split off and make their own brands of games and talk about them in any terms they want (including juvenile, misogynistic, and racist). I dont think I need to point out that Grogheads was split off from Wargamer because people didnt like the atmosphere there and both sites are in their own way successful.
So let the haters hate and the gamers game the internet is big enough for both of them. But I do agree with the article that a lot of this venom and vitriol would disappear if those who are brave enough to type the words had to say them face to face. Let them put their big boy pants on then and see if they can say what they feel under those circumstances....If not then I guess that answers how important this really is.
Con
^^Exactly!
Don't like something in a game? Don't buy it. The number one control on what's in a game is still how much money it makes. Period.
Want to boycott something? That's fine, too. Just don't be a dick about it, and leave the ridiculous conspiracy theories behind. (Actually, don't. They're hilarious.)
Quote from: Con on November 13, 2014, 08:35:22 AM
So let the haters hate and the gamers game the internet is big enough for both of them. But I do agree with the article that a lot of this venom and vitriol would disappear if those who are brave enough to type the words had to say them face to face. Let them put their big boy pants on then and see if they can say what they feel under those circumstances....If not then I guess that answers how important this really is.
Con
Completely agree, 110%
here's an interesting tactic
http://metro.co.uk/2014/11/28/when-boys-send-this-woman-rape-threats-on-facebook-she-tells-mum-on-them-4966287/?ito=facebook
Even with the FBI having confessions on video, they've declined to prosecute men who confessed to sending threats over Gamergate
http://www.businessinsider.com/gamergate-fbi-file-2017-2
At a guess, FBI has some resources for cyber crime that were used but they don't want to go public with at a trial with something as "trivial" as this.
They probably went J edgar on these guys and told them to knock the shit off.
And no, I'm not trying to trivialize what they did, being a father to 3 girls I would go ape shit if stuff like this happened to them. But in the grand world of cyber the FBI is not going to disclose methods for something this low level.