Greece voted the Syriza Party into power on Sunday. The party has lots of Marxists and neo-Marxists.
Their key platform elements are:
a] Greece keeps the Euro
b] but..... Greece does not have to pay back its debt
c] or........ abide by the terms of creditors in the EU for additional loans.
d] and....... Greece ends its austerity programs
Lots of governments and individuals bought lots of Greek bonds after it went to the Euro. In previous bailouts, all of the privately held Greek bonds were effectively defaulted. The only Greek public debt that had to be repaid before was that held by banks & other governments. Now the Greeks don't want to pay back that debt either.
In the past when people stupidly bought Greek government bonds, Greece inevitably defaulted or debased their currency (which are close to the same thing). But with Greece on the Euro it is not possible to simply print more Drachmas as had been done in the past.
I'm guessing that Greece will at minimum be forced to leave the Euro within the next 12 months - unless the Germans and Scandinavia are dumb enough to give the Greeks a bunch more money.
There is speculation that if Greece defaults and leaves the EU that Spain will not be far behind. France and Italy are a bit further back in the line of potential defaulting nations - but who knows.
Shaking at head at the whole mess. I haven't had time to talk to family over there, but I know ours is like most families - completely split politically down the middle, left & right. One of my uncles was in the PASOK (left-wing) parties at the municipal level. The others were more ND (Nea Demokratia, center-right). I cringe at having to wade into the debates. I hope my wife & I can travel there and visit family later one when our baby is a few months old, without ending up in a political firestorm at the dinner table (babies usually make everyone happy!)
I never invested money (other than spending as a tourist) there after how I saw business was done years ago, it's too ridiculous. Having that insight, I know not to invest, but most probably don't and they got burned.
Syriza is a coalition of the the far-left, radical left parties. The actual Communist party in Greece is Kappa Kappa Epsilon (KKE), and those guys are just fruits. I think the younger people who could not find jobs, but had some education and means were able to immigrate and work elsewhere, but there are a lot that like it there, and stay.
The people there can vote for whoever they want, but Germany can decide to stop paying for Greece's mess (I think Merkel knows that).
If Greece, Italy and Spain leave the Euro in the next few years that sounds a lot like a deepening of the North/South European divide, of haves and have nots.
It's the beginning of the end of the EU.
The wealth axis of the EU can be drawn by a line from Paris to Berlin. (Excepting the UK and Switzerland) you can pretty much draw a series of concentric ovals around that line and get a reasonably accurate reduction in wealth the further from that line you go. When they unified currencies they pretty much guaranteed the poorer members would struggle economically.
A bunch of Greek bonds come due in the next 90 days if I'm remembering what I read in the Wall St. Journal correctly. The Greek government does not have the cash to pay the interest due and roll over the current debt.
So one of three things is going to happen. Germany and Northern Europe cave and give big concessions to Greece and effectively continue to finance their spending. Two, Germany and Northern Europe refuse to budge and Greece goes bankrupt and leaves the Euro (if not the EU) or Three - some compromise between the first two options is reached.
This is further complicated that if Greece withdraws from the Euro and repays in Drachma, then the capitalization of some big EU banks may fail.
Germany, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are the deciders - especially Germany. The only thing Greece can do is refuse to pay. Its not like Greece has the financial ability to repay their loans or the financial strength to renegotiate their terms.
I will say this. A clearly established axiom in finance is if something cannot continue forever - then eventually it will fail. Greece has improved their financial standing nationally at a very high cost over the last couple of years. But if Greece is unwilling to accept the continued pain - either Germany et al will further bail them out or Greece is off the Euro. Greece cannot print Euros and they don't have the cash to repay the debt that is due if they break their current lending agreements. After all, Greece has already defaulted on something like 48% of their original debt load (all private holders of Greek government debt) and now they want even more debt forgiveness.
What is the chance of Germany cutting Greece off?
they should but I hope they dont.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on January 26, 2015, 10:51:34 PM
they should but I hope they dont.
Why ?
Fuck greece. And EU too btw.
Quote from: airboy on January 26, 2015, 01:58:19 PM
Greece voted the Syriza Party into power on Sunday. The party has lots of Marxists and neo-Marxists.
Their key platform elements are:
a] Greece keeps the Euro
b] but..... Greece does not have to pay back its debt
c] or........ abide by the terms of creditors in the EU for additional loans.
d] and....... Greece ends its austerity programs
Lots of governments and individuals bought lots of Greek bonds after it went to the Euro. In previous bailouts, all of the privately held Greek bonds were effectively defaulted. The only Greek public debt that had to be repaid before was that held by banks & other governments. Now the Greeks don't want to pay back that debt either.
In the past when people stupidly bought Greek government bonds, Greece inevitably defaulted or debased their currency (which are close to the same thing). But with Greece on the Euro it is not possible to simply print more Drachmas as had been done in the past.
I'm guessing that Greece will at minimum be forced to leave the Euro within the next 12 months - unless the Germans and Scandinavia are dumb enough to give the Greeks a bunch more money.
There is speculation that if Greece defaults and leaves the EU that Spain will not be far behind. France and Italy are a bit further back in the line of potential defaulting nations - but who knows.
It actually goes further then that.
In their program it states amongst other Things:
Public Buildings, banks and churches are to be used to shelter homeless.
Banks must be nationalised
Nationalise all sectors of strategic importance, ie airports, mail, Water etc
Nationalise private hospitals
Close all foreign bases and withdrawel from NATO
And the list goes on, though these thing on the list somehow was pushed in the background the closer to the election you got :)
Quote from: jejo68 on January 27, 2015, 06:21:21 AM
Close all foreign bases and withdrawel from NATO
"Man, our financial situation sux."
"I know! Let's vote for the people saying our nation just doesn't have to pay back any debts now or later, and also shut down one of the biggest income-generating systems!"
"Eureka!"
The new Greek gov't really wants out of NATO?
Quote from: Gusington on January 27, 2015, 07:50:01 PM
The new Greek gov't really wants out of NATO?
These are Commie fruit loops. They probably have lingering sympathies with their fading memories of the USSR.
SYRIZA web page describing what they are:
http://www.syriza.gr/page/who-we-are.html#.VMg9gGjF98F (http://www.syriza.gr/page/who-we-are.html#.VMg9gGjF98F)
I'd like to read the whole thing in Greek with my dad this weekend if I get a chance. There's more at the link, but I got the idea after the first few paragraphs.
From the SYRIZA web page.
1st congress of SYRIZA, July 2013. Note this is about a year and a half ago.
http://www.syriza.gr/article/id/53894/The-political-resolution-of-the-1st-congress-of-SYRIZA.html#.VMg8Q2jF98E (http://www.syriza.gr/article/id/53894/The-political-resolution-of-the-1st-congress-of-SYRIZA.html#.VMg8Q2jF98E)
13.28. We promote integration into the international scene through an independent, multidimensional, and peaceful foreign policy founded on equal cooperation, national independence, and protection of our country's national-territorial integrity. Greece is not only a European country but also a Balkan and a Mediterranean country, in close vicinity to sources of permanent tension in the Middle East. This complex reality spells danger but also offers opportunities. Bonds of friendship and good-neighborly relations with all countries on the basis of respect for the borders and sovereign rights, and cordial relations with progressive movements and progressive governments all over the world can be a protective shield against the extremely precarious international situation, but also an opportunity for peaceful active intervention in cases of international tension and conflict. The guidelines of our foreign policy are: support on the Republic of Cyprus for the settlement of the Cypriot problem, respect for international conventions and relevant UN resolutions, withdrawal from NATO, closure of all foreign military bases, termination of military cooperation with Israel, which may breed danger of military involvement of Greece in the Middle East conflicts, and the application of the principle "no Greek soldier at war fronts outside Greece's border". The struggle for peace and nuclear disarmament is of top priority for SYRIZA and it is closely related to the struggle for democracy.
The introductory speech of their leader back in 2013. It's funny but a lot of people here would mix up my family name with his.
http://www.syriza.gr/article/id/54588/Introductory-speech-of-the-President-of-the-Parliamentary-Group-of-SYRIZA-Alexis-Tsipras-at-the-1st-Congress-of-SYRIZA.html#.VMg952jF98E (http://www.syriza.gr/article/id/54588/Introductory-speech-of-the-President-of-the-Parliamentary-Group-of-SYRIZA-Alexis-Tsipras-at-the-1st-Congress-of-SYRIZA.html#.VMg952jF98E)
^I didn't know you were Greek...
Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if they did leave NATO. They would be a good doorstop against an increasingly ornery Turkey. But I wonder if Greece left NATO, would that push Turkey closer to the West again instead of the drifting they have been doing the last few years...
^ Yes, from my dad's side. He came here in 1956. His side of the family is still mostly over there.
How about that - the new finance minister was previously working at Valve overseeing the Steam Market.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/greeces-new-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-valves-former-steam-market-economist-1485336 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/greeces-new-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-valves-former-steam-market-economist-1485336)
I did NOT see that coming. Steam: destroyer of nations.
Amusing graphic I found on FB today
(https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10942736_10152550031736356_9059215794856545855_n.png?oh=cdeeb62ce347edcc0d7c8949ccae8d90&oe=5552AF4D)
Greeks see themselves as most hardworking and trustworthy. The rest of Europe disagrees.
Amusingly, Italians see themselves as least trustworthy...
Looks like the Poles are still keeping an eye on Germany as well.
Two things strike me in all of this:
1. I truly believe that classical, 19th century "communism" will make a resurgence as the middle class continues to evaporate.
2. This could be identified as of a pratical example of Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". Or least the way that I interpreted an aspect of the thesis, that people who live in colder climates work harder than people who live in warmer climates. Historically they've had to work harder in order to survive the winter months.
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 28, 2015, 09:40:55 AM
Two things strike me in all of this:
1. I truly believe that classical, 19th century "communism" will make a resurgence as the middle class continues to evaporate.
2. This could be identified as of a pratical example of Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". Or least the way that I interpreted an aspect of the thesis, that people who live in colder climates work harder than people who live in warmer climates. Historically they've had to work harder in order to survive the winter months.
Not really, Greeks are just lazy bastards WHO has been used to live off other peoples Money for too long.
Quote from: Staggerwing on January 28, 2015, 06:49:20 AM
Looks like the Poles are still keeping an eye on Germany as well.
they voted them both most and least trustworthy
Quote from: bayonetbrant on January 28, 2015, 11:06:53 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on January 28, 2015, 06:49:20 AM
Looks like the Poles are still keeping an eye on Germany as well.
they voted them both most and least trustworthy
Perhaps the definition of "trustworthy" is what's in question here.
The Italians see each other as least trustworthy because they're all so busy cheating on each others' spouses with one another.
The Greeks see the Germans as untrustworthy because they (rightfully) fear the endless supply of loans will be choked off.
The Poles see the Germans as least trustworthy because the Germans are so efficient at invading other countries (when they so choose).
The Germans are tied between Italy and Greece for least trustworthy because the Italians, while great lovers and makers of excellent food, make such unreliable autos. The Greeks OTOH are most likely to default on debt, and so the Germans are torn between their hearts and their wallets.
It's the same old story over decades. The truth is, there is just not enough economic value in the country to support the living standards they had before the mess. My dad went back to vist in '64, '71, '85, and then 2007, and on most occasions, he could never figure out how the country could support the changes he saw. I think the last government made a lot of efforts to cut back and get back on track, however I think the groups that saw their jobs slashed (i.e. public servants etc) did not like that.
It is hard to get anything done in the country sometimes due to bickering or waffling. I find the biggest enemy to Greeks are themselves.
To quote Churchill (actually the rest of this quote from his book The Second World War is quite flattering to both peoples, but I chose this segment specifically):
"The Greeks rival the Jews in being the most politically minded race in the world. No matter how forlorn their circumstances or how grave the peril to their country, they are always divided into many parties, with many leaders who fight among themselves with desperate vigour"
Emphasis on 'many parties'. It's not uncommon to find 50 political parties on the ballot there. I really wonder how things ever get done in the country. You cannot see it through the prism of a North American perspective.
SYRIZA is a coalition. At the moment, they do not have the required amount of seats (151) to form a goverment on their own, so they may have to cooperate with others.
It's always been like this. They've survived a lot worse, they'll hopefully get through the mess. I just hope they do not mess everything else for everyone around them. The scenario I fear the most is if there is a major backlash against all this, and if some nut case party like Golden Dawn came to power. In that case, I would really fear for my family and I would not welcome returning to such an environment.
Haven't heard back from all my cousins yet, but the one who runs a nightclub says business is still good (definitely looking good on the facebook page).
Quote from: LongBlade on January 27, 2015, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: Gusington on January 27, 2015, 07:50:01 PM
The new Greek gov't really wants out of NATO?
These are Commie fruit loops. They probably have lingering sympathies with their fading memories of the USSR.
Seems to be a popular thing with Grecian 'Millennials'.
The one I've seen speak candidly, currently attending school in the US, is pretty much a Commie who thought Chavez was doing a great job in Venezuela. ::) Oh.. and the western capitalists being the ones at fault for their devolving situation. ::)
Judging by the way the Greek youth have reportedly been acting, I'm guessing he's the norm.
Quote from: endfire79 on January 28, 2015, 12:39:06 PM
To quote Churchill (actually the rest of this quote from his book The Second World War is quite flattering to both peoples, but I chose this segment specifically):
"The Greeks rival the Jews in being the most politically minded race in the world. No matter how forlorn their circumstances or how grave the peril to their country, they are always divided into many parties, with many leaders who fight among themselves with desperate vigour"
Reminds me of Mark Twain's description of the Polish Parliament in the late 1800s.
Incidentally, is Syriza an acronym or what? I know a little Greek but only enough to be dangerous in bits and pieces. ;) I can't figure out what the meaning is supposed to be.
It's an acronym.
Συνασπισμός Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστερά
Synaspismós Rizospastikís Aristerás (Coalition of the Radical Left)
Spent only two year in Greece in the early 70s. At that time, the Greeks were run by a junta of army colonels, and we thought that was the reason for the divisiveness within the country.
Then you had the Cyprus problem that went out of control when Greek extremists started being provocative. This ultimately lead the Turks to invade Cyprus.
The military base had a cultural liason with the Greeks and his belief was that the centuries of Ottoman control and heavy handed rule permanently warped the Greek culture.
The devshorme' was the child tax. To staff the Janissaries, christian boys raised as Muslims and brainwashed into adoring the sultan (think Sultan Jugend), the govenors coudl take any boy at any time. Whole villages were left with no boy children.
As a result, Greek culture coddled and entitles the boys to an extreme degree.
In her book, A Distant Mirror, Barbara Tuchman notes how Medieval lords often acted like spoiled brats, because they were spoiled brats. Young kids who inherited great titles and lands, and treated as royalty from the moment of birth.
Many Greeks acted and felt thiis way.
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 28, 2015, 04:19:54 PM
Incidentally, is Syriza an acronym or what? I know a little Greek but only enough to be dangerous in bits and pieces. ;) I can't figure out what the meaning is supposed to be.
Quote from: wikipediaThe Coalition of the Radical Left[15] (Greek: Συνασπισμός Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς, Synaspismós Rizospastikís Aristerás), known colloquially by its acronym SYRIZA (Greek: ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, pronounced [ˈsiɾiza]), is a left-wing political party in Greece, originally founded as a coalition of left-wing and radical left parties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Radical_Left
Quote from: besilarius on January 28, 2015, 07:57:31 PM
Spent only two year in Greece in the early 70s. At that time, the Greeks were run by a junta of army colonels, and we thought that was the reason for the divisiveness within the country.
Then you had the Cyprus problem that went out of control when Greek extremists started being provocative. This ultimately lead the Turks to invade Cyprus.
The military base had a cultural liason with the Greeks and his belief was that the centuries of Ottoman control and heavy handed rule permanently warped the Greek culture.
The devshorme' was the child tax. To staff the Janissaries, christian boys raised as Muslims and brainwashed into adoring the sultan (think Sultan Jugend), the govenors coudl take any boy at any time. Whole villages were left with no boy children.
As a result, Greek culture coddled and entitles the boys to an extreme degree.
In her book, A Distant Mirror, Barbara Tuchman notes how Medieval lords often acted like spoiled brats, because they were spoiled brats. Young kids who inherited great titles and lands, and treated as royalty from the moment of birth.
Many Greeks acted and felt thiis way.
There is some truth to that. The legacy of Ottoman rule took effect throughout the Balkans. I think the coddling is there ( but European kids in France get about the same thing from what I've seen). The political division between left & right started before the Junta (Greek Civil War after WW2).
Be careful with calling a Cypriot Greek, they can be pretty 'fierce' about that. I am of the opinion Greece should never have got involved in Cyprus, and it was indeed a big mess.
On a side note, one of my coworkers used to be stationed at the British air base there in the 70's. Rule #1 - don't mess with the women. Rule #2 - see Rule #1. :) Beautiful place though.
I used to do service for a man who, while in the Army, was stationed in Greece for several years. He enjoyed his time there and often said he would go back. He was an intelligent and interesting person and I would like to have his thoughts on this. Alas, he sold his house and I no longer do his service, so, I am unable to solicit his opinion on this new development.
There is a significant Greek community here in Halifax, and it has grown a bit recently, thanks to a new mini-wave of immigrants seeking to escape economic hardships in Greece.
I have noticed that the Greeks are very proud of their heritage. Most send their kids to Greek school after regular school to learn how to read & write Greek; and socially they attend the Greek Orthodox Church (which is beautiful, btw). Many vacation in Greece, at least once every couple of years, and they still maintain contacts with relatives still living in Greece. But not one Greek Canadian living here, who I have asked, wants to live in Greece. Even the old retirees don't want to winter there! A three-week visit every couple of years is as much as they will consider.
This floors me. They all talk about the food and the weather in Greece, which sounds idyllic. I could never understand why anyone would want to spend their winter here:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthechronicleherald.ca%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fu63629%2F2ffa11504c6e4bd7a183f7481cb2ef26.JPG&hash=01fd3be166bf182230646cb5254f774b2839ee5a)
when they could spend their winter here:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuchmanbeachesguide.com%2Fimages%2Fgreece-lindos.jpg&hash=bf94eb7cca2e00baaf77572b518077f2111364ee)
But thanks to this thread, I am starting to better understand....
Tsipras (the Prime Minister) formed a government with a coalition partner the right-wing Independent Greeks who are known for their anti-German rhetoric and views (according to the Wall St. Journal of 1/29/15). The guy has repeatedly called on Germany to make "reparations" payments for WW2.
Actions this week include:
a] Pledging to rehire thousands of public sector workers
b] Reopen the state broadcaster
c] insisting that restrictions on the Greek government by its creditors be revoked
d] boosting the minimum wage 30% and boost public pensions
The plan would supposedly be funded by "reallocating budget funds" and "cracking down on illegal gasoline sales"
Greek bonds are yielding 17% on fears of a default. Greek bank stocks are down 25% this week (Monday - Wednesday). Greek bank deposits are rapidly shrinking as people fear currency controls or nationalization of bank deposits.
The Greek loans come due over the next several weeks. There have been no reported talks between the EU debt holders and the Greek government.
The financial press is reporting that the EU is thinking that it would be best to have Greece leave the EU.
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 29, 2015, 09:00:21 AM
There is a significant Greek community here in Halifax, and it has grown a bit recently, thanks to a new mini-wave of immigrants seeking to escape economic hardships in Greece.
I have noticed that the Greeks are very proud of their heritage. Most send their kids to Greek school after regular school to learn how to read & write Greek; and socially they attend the Greek Orthodox Church (which is beautiful, btw). Many vacation in Greece, at least once every couple of years, and they still maintain contacts with relatives still living in Greece. But not one Greek Canadian living here, who I have asked, wants to live in Greece. Even the old retirees don't want to winter there! A three-week visit every couple of years is as much as they will consider.
This floors me. They all talk about the food and the weather in Greece, which sounds idyllic. I could never understand why anyone would want to spend their winter here:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthechronicleherald.ca%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fu63629%2F2ffa11504c6e4bd7a183f7481cb2ef26.JPG&hash=01fd3be166bf182230646cb5254f774b2839ee5a)
when they could spend their winter here:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuchmanbeachesguide.com%2Fimages%2Fgreece-lindos.jpg&hash=bf94eb7cca2e00baaf77572b518077f2111364ee)
But thanks to this thread, I am starting to better understand....
I know, it's true. It comes down to this. Who do you trust with your taxed incomes? (hint, not the governments in Athens ;)).
Quote from: airboy on January 29, 2015, 10:02:49 AM
Tsipras (the Prime Minister) formed a government with a coalition partner the right-wing Independent Greeks who are known for their anti-German rhetoric and views (according to the Wall St. Journal of 1/29/15). The guy has repeatedly called on Germany to make "reparations" payments for WW2.
Actions this week include:
a] Pledging to rehire thousands of public sector workers
b] Reopen the state broadcaster
c] insisting that restrictions on the Greek government by its creditors be revoked
d] boosting the minimum wage 30% and boost public pensions
The plan would supposedly be funded by "reallocating budget funds" and "cracking down on illegal gasoline sales"
Greek bonds are yielding 17% on fears of a default. Greek bank stocks are down 25% this week (Monday - Wednesday). Greek bank deposits are rapidly shrinking as people fear currency controls or nationalization of bank deposits.
The Greek loans come due over the next several weeks. There have been no reported talks between the EU debt holders and the Greek government.
The financial press is reporting that the EU is thinking that it would be best to have Greece leave the EU.
Airboy, that reparations sentiment has been there a long time before Tsipras brought it up; as long as I can remember since the end of WW2. It's an old horn that many try to blow when they have no card left to play.
About his plans, I am perplexed as well. I don't see where he's going to find the money. Greece had an overbloated bureaucracy before this mess, and too many people had jobs doing nothing and due to cronyism. Adding the EU loans to the mix, they made it worse.
I also read there were plans to privatize the port at Piraeus, but Tsipras put that on hold. The company that was lined up to run it was the COSCO group from China.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/27/us-greece-election-privatisation-idUSKBN0L027W20150127 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/27/us-greece-election-privatisation-idUSKBN0L027W20150127)
Not a bad local news source with an english edition as well
http://www.ekathimerini.com/ (http://www.ekathimerini.com/)
The OpEd cartoon from today
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphoto.ekathimerini.com%2Fkath%2Feng2%2Felements%2Fa_Home%2F55%2Fskitso20150129.jpg&hash=fe680ababf0207edb631d9327e0d7f759188a65c)
Airboy, that reparations sentiment has been there a long time before Tsipras brought it up; as long as I can remember since the end of WW2. It's an old horn that many try to blow when they have no card left to play.
About his plans, I am perplexed as well. I don't see where he's going to find the money. Greece had an overbloated bureaucracy before this mess, and too many people had jobs doing nothing and due to cronyism. Adding the EU loans to the mix, they made it worse.
I also read there were plans to privatize the port at Piraeus, but Tsipras put that on hold. The company that was lined up to run it was the COSCO group from China.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/27/us-greece-election-privatisation-idUSKBN0L027W20150127 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/27/us-greece-election-privatisation-idUSKBN0L027W20150127)
[/quote]
The financial press also cannot figure out where the money will come from to hire lots more government workers.
I mentioned the reparations line for a couple of reasons. Germany is the primary holder of Greek Government debt and is essential to any negotiations to alter the loan terms to Greece. But the new PM had formed a government with a party that goes out of its way to insult Germany, and to personally insult the German Chancellor. The reparations line is another finger in the eye of Germany. Almost the first act of the new Greek PM was to visit a memorial to Greeks shot by the occupying Germans 70 years ago now.
As a negotiating strategy, going out of your way to enrage and insult the individual and government that you most need to be flexible on lending terms seems counterproductive.
But the Greeks as a group love to nurse their grievances. If I'm remembering right from my multiple trips to Greece, the ceremonial Greek military uniform that is used at their equalivant to the US Tomb of the Unknown Soldier has a knot on the skirt for each year of Turkish occupation of Greece.
Found the reference: from Wikipedia: Foustanella (φουστανέλα), a cotton kilt made from 30 meters (98 feet) of white cloth, with 400 pleats (Greek: πιέτες), representing the 400 years of Ottoman occupation.[1] The foustanella derives from the traditional uniform of Continental Greece. This is part of the uniform they wear.
Quote from: airboy on January 29, 2015, 11:35:58 AM
As a negotiating strategy, going out of your way to enrage and insult the individual and government that you most need to be flexible on lending terms seems counterproductive.
But the Greeks as a group love to nurse their grievances. If I'm remembering right from my multiple trips to Greece, the ceremonial Greek military uniform that is used at their equalivant to the US Tomb of the Unknown Soldier has a knot on the skirt for each year of Turkish occupation of Greece.
Found the reference: from Wikipedia: Foustanella (φουστανέλα), a cotton kilt made from 30 meters (98 feet) of white cloth, with 400 pleats (Greek: πιέτες), representing the 400 years of Ottoman occupation.[1] The foustanella derives from the traditional uniform of Continental Greece. This is part of the uniform they wear.
Counterproductive & insulating - definitely. It's theatrics playing on sentiments long shared by a % of the general populace over there, but nothing to help the situation at all. The people there can be quite temperamental, and sometimes downright unreasonable, as most are in the balkans if I may add. The current economic situation doesn't help sadly.
Glad you made it to the Presidential Palace while you were there. I wore one of those when I was a kid. It's part of the identity & national psyche, as were the stories of the war of independence etc. There is still friction between the two countries, and Turkey has a more vibrant economy these days & larger population to boot.
Quote from: endfire79 on January 29, 2015, 10:22:23 AM
About his plans, I am perplexed as well. I don't see where he's going to find the money. Greece had an overbloated bureaucracy before this mess, and too many people had jobs doing nothing and due to cronyism. Adding the EU loans to the mix, they made it worse.
Sadly, it sounds as if the Greeks didn't learn their economic lesson. They're just piling on even more of the same stuff that put them in such a hole.
I wonder if they'll eventually vote differently after completely wrecking it and having the EU sever them like a hopelessly gangrenous appendage. :-\
Quote from: Nefaro on January 29, 2015, 01:44:41 PM
Quote from: endfire79 on January 29, 2015, 10:22:23 AM
About his plans, I am perplexed as well. I don't see where he's going to find the money. Greece had an overbloated bureaucracy before this mess, and too many people had jobs doing nothing and due to cronyism. Adding the EU loans to the mix, they made it worse.
Sadly, it sounds as if the Greeks didn't learn their economic lesson. They're just piling on even more of the same stuff that put them in such a hole.
I wonder if they'll eventually vote differently after completely wrecking it and having the EU sever them like a hopelessly gangrenous appendage. :-\
As Airboy said, nothing lasts forever. Greece is headed for a crash. It's either pay me now, or pay me later.
Sounds like Germany's getting ready to give them the boot. If they're defaulting on their bonds it's pretty much inevitable.
Once, the economic situations gets really bad, the government will probably look for someone to blame. This will occupy people, incite their emotions.
No doubt, the USA will get some criticism for not stepping in. Obviously Germany for holding the loans.
What they should not do is start another round of fighting in the Balkans. The Bulgars have long desired a port on the Mediterranean. The Greeks are angry that their neighbors have a province named Macedonia. And there is always Turkey.
Should these bozos go too far with any rhetoric, they just might get their wish.
It is hardly ever mentioned, but Churchill visited the british troops in Athens around Christmas, 1945. The Communists plotted an assasination. The britsh general on the ground, Scobie, was on top of the situation and stomped it down. No telling what the final results would have been if Winston was killed. No one else really cared enough about Greece to hazard the troops and effort. Had Greece gone communist, then Stalin could have put much more pressure on Tito and Turkey.
Is the fear of a domino effect starting with Greece leaving the EU a real threat? First Greece, then Spain, then Italy, then...?
While Spain and Italy have their (lion's) share of problems I find it hard to put them in the same econocultural category as Greece. Both of the former countries have vibrant tech sectors and a not-insignificant manufacturing capacity. When is the last time you saw any cutting edge Greek-built medical equipment?
Quote from: Gusington on January 29, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
Is the fear of a domino effect starting with Greece leaving the EU a real threat? First Greece, then Spain, then Italy, then...?
I wish I could remember where I saw it, but, I read an article in the last week or so that said exactly that. If Greece goes, it is likely that Spain and Italy will follow.
IIRC I saw an article in The Economist a few days ago about the new domino effect.
'Wing, to be fair I don't remember ever seeing anything stamped 'Made in Spain.' I think Spain is just as crippled as Greece. I do agree on Italy being a level above, but not by much.
In my previous job I had some Spanish-made (but re-badged) equipment for cutting ophthalmic lenses.
Grexit would have started the dominos afew years back, I would be surprised to hear now, after stress tests, along with the years to fix things, nothing has changed. Is that so?
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on January 30, 2015, 02:07:05 AM
Grexit would have started the dominos afew years back, I would be surprised to hear now, after stress tests, along with the years to fix things, nothing has changed. Is that so?
Pretty much.
I hope and prey that greece will start a snowball effect, since I have no Desire to live in USSR 2.0
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on January 30, 2015, 02:07:05 AM
Grexit would have started the dominos afew years back, I would be surprised to hear now, after stress tests, along with the years to fix things, nothing has changed. Is that so?
EU Banks are stronger. Many of the weakest economies are on a somewhat more sound footing.
But the EU area as a whole has had little economic growth for a decade. You can pin the blame on lack of growth on whatever you choose (I would pick too much business regulation, inflexible labor rules, and high taxes - others might not agree). In contrast, the US economy has had massive growth in two sectors - tech (especially handling information) and oil/gas extraction. Where has the EU growth been?
Quote from: airboy on January 30, 2015, 12:11:33 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on January 30, 2015, 02:07:05 AM
Grexit would have started the dominos afew years back, I would be surprised to hear now, after stress tests, along with the years to fix things, nothing has changed. Is that so?
EU Banks are stronger. Many of the weakest economies are on a somewhat more sound footing.
But the EU area as a whole has had little economic growth for a decade. You can pin the blame on lack of growth on whatever you choose (I would pick too much business regulation, inflexible labor rules, and high taxes - others might not agree). In contrast, the US economy has had massive growth in two sectors - tech (especially handling information) and oil/gas extraction. Where has the EU growth been?
I only took a quick glance at EU growth, but the outlook doesn't look too good. It's predicted there will be some growth in Lithuania & Ireland for the next year, that's it.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/12/european-economy-guide (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/12/european-economy-guide)
So apparently greece has now stopped coorporating with the EU kommsion, ECB and IMF.
So in about 1 month they are bankrupt
And yet Again the Greek government is showing its bizare face.
Now they want to ban the hotels from selling all inclusive rooms, because it apparently Hurts the small restaurants in the area around the hotels.
Well none of that will matter since they will probably soon nationalise it all anyway.
I heard a report that the new Greek gov't may threaten to veto future EU sanctions against Russia, which require a unanimous vote, in an attempt to pressure Germany and others to give Greece better debt terms.
Is there any mechanism in the EU's charter for expelling a member?
Quote from: jejo68 on January 31, 2015, 05:10:32 AM
And yet Again the Greek government is showing its bizare face.
Now they want to ban the hotels from selling all inclusive rooms, because it apparently Hurts the small restaurants in the area around the hotels.
Well none of that will matter since they will probably soon nationalise it all anyway.
From what I read they are only discussing the idea
Quote from: Staggerwing on January 31, 2015, 07:40:20 AMIs there any mechanism in the EU's charter for expelling a member?
I can't imagine there's not...
And now we have big demonstrations in Spain against repaying the loans. And it seems the politicians WHO wants to default is going to win a landslide.
cant wait for the Euro to go boom, and hopefully EU with it.
Quote from: jejo68 on January 31, 2015, 11:15:30 AM
And now we have big demonstrations in Spain against repaying the loans. And it seems the politicians WHO wants to default is going to win a landslide.
cant wait for the Euro to go boom, and hopefully EU with it.
I'm not sure how it can be avoided. Some semblance will probably remain - a
Franco-Prussian French-German alliance of some kind. Not sure who else would want to be a part of it. Maybe the Benelux countries.
A leaner, meaner EU might just be the ticket. Cut away the gangrene and the remaining healthy tissue might grow even stronger.
Quote from: Staggerwing on January 31, 2015, 01:04:44 PM
A leaner, meaner EU might just be the ticket. Cut away the gangrene and the remaining healthy tissue might grow even stronger.
That's actually how it started - originally there was a joint steel-producing venture between France and Germany. The idea being that if they integrated steel production it would be easier to keep an eye on what was going out the door for military use. From that it grew slowly to what we have today. Somewhere in between is probably a sweet spot. Given all the terrorists moving about Europe, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start to rein in the free travel of people across borders.
now Greece was Germany to pay it WW2 reparations... :2funny:
http://www.dw.de/greece-tallies-up-the-wwii-reparations-bill/a-18224874
cant wait for Mikes response to this.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on January 31, 2015, 01:50:55 PM
now Greece was Germany to pay it WW2 reparations... :2funny:
http://www.dw.de/greece-tallies-up-the-wwii-reparations-bill/a-18224874
cant wait for Mikes response to this.
Let's get the order of business correct - Sparta should first pay reparations for the Peloponnesian War. Then we can get to more modern conflicts.
Quote from: Staggerwing on January 31, 2015, 01:04:44 PM
A leaner, meaner EU might just be the ticket. Cut away the gangrene and the remaining healthy tissue might grow even stronger.
Never going to happen. The Whole organisation is build upon the idea of one unified European nation. Everything going on there is designed to Draw power away from the individual nations to the overnational USSR 2.0.
I suspect the wheels coming off now are the early death knell of the EU. It was always going to be quite complicated to reach some kind of economic integration. Without the economic integration, political integration is impossible.
IMHO it's all over except the waiting.
you have very different cultural standards and very different approaches to the role of government in public life, which results in very different approaches / standards to how money is handled
Quote from: LongBlade on January 31, 2015, 02:12:47 PM
I suspect the wheels coming off now are the early death knell of the EU. It was always going to be quite complicated to reach some kind of economic integration. Without the economic integration, political integration is impossible.
IMHO it's all over except the waiting.
I have a bottle of Champaign in the fridge and a huge monte cristo in a drawer somewhere... I'm just saying :)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on January 31, 2015, 01:50:55 PM
now Greece was Germany to pay it WW2 reparations... :2funny:
http://www.dw.de/greece-tallies-up-the-wwii-reparations-bill/a-18224874
cant wait for Mikes response to this.
it's old hat news, like since 1945 and a being touted by politicians who've fired blanks there since as long as I can remember. The current leader is not doing anything original by saying this. Personally I don't think Merkl is a pushover.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury
cant wait for Mikes response to this.
I can imagine the response might be something along the lines of 'damn those crazy swarthy southies, I used to be so happy before they ruined my Germany; where's First Panzer Group when you need it' or something ;D Psst MikeGer, it's a joke ;)
I remember visiting Greece before it joined the EU, and afterwards. Things were still kind of 'chaotic' compared to home here, but things seemed cheaper than there are now.
I don't know how they fell under the Euro spell and then had to cook their books to get in, but it seems they're staying in character by having to lie & cheat to get out. I'm really glad I never invested in (or inherited) property there, like many I knew.
So any guesstimates as to when Greece is out? 3 months? 6?
seems a bad time to start fracturing.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on January 31, 2015, 11:45:57 PM
seems a bad time to start fracturing.
Economic collapses rarely arrive at the best of times.
well...
praise the Lord and pass the ammunition then.
except for Gus. did you see what his dick did to the Iowa?!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgrogheads.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D12573.0%3Battach%3D5007%3Bimage&hash=22a62f03864c1d01be23e8fe50ac43d117cd17b4)
I swear the boy was circumcised because of a START treaty.
That was flaccid, too.
Show off
You can't make butter with a toothpick.
Quote from: Gusington on January 31, 2015, 11:41:24 PM
So any guesstimates as to when Greece is out? 3 months? 6?
In the short run I don't think Greece will be kicked out of the EU over this.
However, if they stay on their current course, refusing to commit to the agreement already negotiated. Then, IMHO, they will be kicked out of the Eurozone (the monetary union), I guess within 2 months.
Which, BTW, is good news for the Greeks. They should never have joined the Eurozone in the first place.
^How come?
Because of the heaps of Drachmas that all the old folks squirreled away in their mattresses and potting sheds will be worth something again?
To be honest I started hiding money in my mattress in 2008.
Quote from: Gusington on February 01, 2015, 04:23:35 PM
^How come?
Why they shouldnt have been in the Eurozone ?
Well short story. In order to join the Euro they had to live up to certain standards for budget balance for once, which they didnt do by a long mile. In fact they had to Cook the books big time just in order to fullfill the minimum requirement.
Second the Greeks has a history of governmental overspending and when they cant borrow more or repay loans they go bankrupt or deflate their currency. All that is impossible when your part of the Euro. That didnt stop them from overspending however, since they figured the North would just pay up, which to be fair we did for many years.
Third because they where part of the Euro they were able to borrow obscene amount of Money at interest rates way below what would be natural for their type of economy, which Again lead to greece spending even more Money they couldnt afford.
Fourth, after they joined the Euro prices went up around 20-30% in a short amount of time, which wrecked their tourist industry (largest industri in greece) and ment that the average Greek had to get a substantial raise just to get by, which Again hurt all other industries.
Fifth and this is more a point of them being part of EU. Because of all the stupid grants you can get inside EU for fx growing food or other agricultural stuff which in itself is unproductive, alot of the Greek Agricultural has turned into big scams where fx they grow Tobacco even though its in such a pisspoor condition that none wants to by it on the open market. So now Greek cant even feed itself, because all the fruitfull land is being used for shit like this.
A well fuckem im tired of having to tell why greece should be sent out back and shot. Spain and Portugal isnt much better except they have atleast made a huge effort to correct Things, even though a big part of spain seems to be fed up with repaying for their overspending. So fuck them too.
Pardon my french but im really mad that we have to pay for their overspending because they act like babies.
And im really mad that our F..... prime minister has promised to cautioned $12Bill to greece if they cant or dont pay, even though were not part of the Euro and dont have any obligation to do that, stupid b...h >:(
OK - I get it. I'd be pissed to if I was from Germany, France or one of the Scandinavian countries.
I'm pissed and I don't even live there. It just always seemed to good to be true to me.
Greece cooked their books to get into the EU club. On the other hadn, the EU (or however did the auditing) did a piss poor job of checking the books, and completely missed the facts that everybody knew & that jejo pointed out (the previous governments had history of overspending & paying back loans). Why the EU let them in, I will never understand and is irrelevant now I think both are to blame, as both appeared to really want to make this happen years ago, despite it not making any sense.
Quote from: endfire79 on February 02, 2015, 12:33:38 AM
Why the EU let them in, I will never understand
No passport required to vaca down there. And duty-free olives.
Quote from: Gusington on February 01, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
To be honest I started hiding money in my mattress in 2008.
To be honest you should have started a LOT earlier than that. :)
^Everyone's a critic. Well The Wife takes it all anyway so you know 'hey whateva.'
Quote from: Gusington on February 02, 2015, 01:07:56 PM
^Everyone's a critic. Well The Wife takes it all anyway so you know 'hey whateva.'
The wife can only take what she knows you have.
She takes his money and he takes dogs balls.
its a vicious cycle.
Sounds like marriage to me
~fin~
Greek banks continue to hemorrhage deposits to the tune of a billion plus Euros daily.
The European Central Bank will no longer take Greek Government bonds as collateral for currency transfers to Greek Banks.
Based on tax receipts, Greece will need a bridge loan in the next 3 weeks to stay solvent. Greece is demanding that a new agreement be put in place that relaxes austerity before having any additional loans. Italy, France and Spain said "the Greeks voted this, so Germany and Scandinavia should give Greece more money on better terms." Germany, Denmark, Finland and others said: "Southern Europe/France - if you want to loan money to Greece on less stringent terms - you go girl!! We take a pass."
Right now we are at an impasse. Germany & Scandinavia won't loan anything to Greece on easier terms including bridge loans. Greece continues to say they won't take any additional loans on the current terms. Greek banks become less solvent every day. Greek Bonds cannot be used in the European Central Bank as collateral.
But....... the new Greek Communist Government continues to demand billions and billions of Euros from Germany in "war reparations."
According to the financial press - Greece has something between 15 to 30 days before their banks all go insolvent. Germany, Finland, Denmark et al. are not budging. The opinions of Italy, Spain and France are irrelevant - since they are all broke and don't have any real assets to lend.
I read about this every day in the Wall St. Journal. This is where we are now (2/13/15).
Dont forget that the nethelands has told greece to go shoot themselves too O0.
The only ones WHO wants the rest of the Eurozone to be leniant towards greece are USA (dumb shitheads :smitten: ), russia (well fuck them too) and the Southern part of europe which doesnt have any Money to pay themselves so stuff them.
Quote from: jejo68 on February 13, 2015, 02:05:00 PM
Dont forget that the nethelands has told greece to go shoot themselves too O0.
The only ones WHO wants the rest of the Eurozone to be leniant towards greece are USA (dumb shitheads :smitten: ), russia (well fuck them too) and the Southern part of europe which doesnt have any Money to pay themselves so stuff them.
Agreed. It is hard to remember all of the countries that have told Greece to pay up on the agreed upon terms.
Quote from: jejo68 on February 13, 2015, 02:05:00 PM
Dont forget that the nethelands has told greece to go shoot themselves too O0.
The only ones WHO wants the rest of the Eurozone to be leniant towards greece are USA (dumb shitheads :smitten: ), russia (well fuck them too) and the Southern part of europe which doesnt have any Money to pay themselves so stuff them.
For a laugh, I vote to change the EU acronym to FU, it sounds a lot more appropriate, as that's all everyone says these days there.
I found a website that makes a comparison between the situation in Greece vs the situation back in Iceland. Albeit the Greek situation is different and far worse than Iceland's. Being outside the EU helps. I don't see any benefit of being in the EU club unless you are at the same level as Germany or some of the northern EU countries. The system doesn't work elsewhere.
its been called EUSSR for a couple of years here :)
I can see why.
That aside, I'll have to step aside & apologize if I get a little too emotional about the situation. I still have family there, and naturally I can't help but feel worried. But at the end of the day, I thank the stars my father made the call to emigrate here decades ago & and stay in Canada (his brother went back in the 70's).
Maybe they should ask Turkey. >:D
Better yet, sell off their share of Cyprus.
There's many who believe Greece & Turkey can only stand to benefit together by more cooperation (and among other countries in the region). There are still a lot who think otherwise and can't get the chip of their shoulders and move on. Have been to both, and really like both countries and people's. Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but Turkey has a larger and rising population, and if it can keep the religious bullshit in check and stay secular, it has potential. Both are stubborn headed, but it comes with the region.
On the other hand, one part of the country is still really different compared to Europe and hence will think differently than Europeans. You are literally sitting on the crossroads between Europe and Asia.
Greece was very against admitting Turkey to the EU in the past for whatever reason. If the EU is still considering that option, that they really take a close look at their books before any reckless lending.
Quote from: LongBlade on January 26, 2015, 09:06:14 PM
It's the beginning of the end of the EU.
The wealth axis of the EU can be drawn by a line from Paris to Berlin. (Excepting the UK and Switzerland) you can pretty much draw a series of concentric ovals around that line and get a reasonably accurate reduction in wealth the further from that line you go. When they unified currencies they pretty much guaranteed the poorer members would struggle economically.
We in the UK didn't join the Euro for sound monetary reasons. Not only the southern states, but France too is suffering for what was as much a political as an economic decision. I thought it nuts when Greece went into the Eurozone, Cyprus too. They were both better off with their national currencies.
The Marxist Economist who is the Finance Minister for Greece (and no, this is not a dig just a description of the facts) has been claiming that Greece only wants to change 30% of the loan terms.
The EU demanded of Greece - give us your specific offer in writing. Greece refused to do so.
Meeting broke up. Greece has to have some bridge loans by the end of the month (less than 2 weeks away) or the wheels fall off. But the Marxist Economics Finance Minister for Greece fails to even provide a written offer for negotiation.
Read it for yourself:
http://fortune.com/2015/02/16/greece-and-the-eurozone-dance-on-the-precipice-snarling-at-each-other/
Yes,he is a twit. He will run them off the cliff.
Time to start shorting gyros!
Falling feta futures!
I'll stay out of puns on this one. I wonder which way the military is going. A junta started in the 60s when Papandreou and the lefties got too ridiculous.
Quote from: endfire79 on February 17, 2015, 12:29:19 PM
I'll stay out of puns on this one.
Stopping a pun war once it starts is tougher than trying to catch a Greeced pig.
Those things can run a marathon!
After leaving the Euro currency, they will have to give a fig.
olive you should be ashamed of yourselves
Yeah- they're behaving like the proverbial Mad Woman in the Attica...
Is there an advantage (and possibility) that Greece may leave the Euro for it's currency but stay in the EU to keep the trade and travel advantages.
Quote from: OJsDad on February 17, 2015, 09:01:14 PM
Is there an advantage (and possibility) that Greece may leave the Euro for it's currency but stay in the EU to keep the trade and travel advantages.
Greece should never have been in the Euro, but now that they did enter they should have left 5 years ago. They would probably have been over this Whole mess by now if they had.
But given that I loath the Euro and EU in generel its really good they didnt, especially since this might mean the end of this freak currency.
-smh-
Hey, creating bad Greek puns in English isn't easy, due to how much of our language descends from Greek to begin with. It takes some real talantons.
Greek debt-repayment politician compares Germany to Nazis demanding their surrender in 1940 (http://news.sky.com/story/1429713/greek-insider-likens-arrogant-germany-to-nazis)
What a Cretan.
Why don't Euboea good sport and get back to bashing Commies?
Spain has an election coming up and it's sounding like their going to follow Greece's lead.
Greece now, Spain, portugal might do the same. The sentiment is they are fed up with EU, and the EU is fed up with them. Nice big happy dysfunctional family.
Quote from: MetalDog on February 18, 2015, 01:00:43 PM
-smh-
Don't be sad. Cracking puns is Sparta our nature.
So is this it for the EU? Will it split into "northern" and "southern" tiers, like separatists in Italy have been talking about for years?
Gus, IMHO it's always been like that. The north thinks the south is poor, lazy, inept and corrupt. The south thinks the north is rich, corrupt, stuck up and full of themselves. This won't change (I'm not holding my breath). They have one thing in common - they both think each other is corrupt.
So - would Europe divide North/South, instead of the East/West we grew up with? Or maybe North/South and East/West if Russia continues its antics? And to think the 'End of History' was supposed to be 15 years ago. Oopsie.
Quote from: Gusington on February 18, 2015, 08:15:02 PM
So is this it for the EU? Will it split into "northern" and "southern" tiers, like separatists in Italy have been talking about for years?
Nah. Far more likely they'll split back into their original nations and currencies. Italy, Spain, Portugal...none wants to inherit the mess that is Greece. They all have their own problems and will attempt to solve them in their own ways.
So 'one Europe' is just a sham? Charlemagne was all about it!
Quote from: Gusington on February 18, 2015, 08:42:38 PM
So 'one Europe' is just a sham? Charlemagne was all about it!
I don't know about Charlemagne but the EU was pretty much doomed from the start.
well the Eurovision song competition still goes on, even Israel is in that one :)
Now you see why the left in the US never implemented their social programs at the state level. The other states would refuse to bailout a state that trashed it's economy with poorly planned programs. But at the Federal level, all you need is a majority and you trap the whole country. The Federal government has more options to borrow than states do and the people cannot get a ballot initiative to repeal a program.
Sometimes I think that the natural state of [Western] Europe at least is a large bloc of trading neighbors, sort of the way the EU began, with the Benelux countries, Germany and France.
Then I get a grip and think that just a group of sovereign nations that aren't trying to destroy each other is good enough.
Yes sort of.
When things stabilize (hopefully), I'll visit the other half of the family with the wife and baby. Still a great place to check out.
might get some really cheap vacation deals soon.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 18, 2015, 09:21:24 PM
might get some really cheap vacation deals soon.
Especially on the north shore of the Black Sea.
Greece will honor its debts:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-greece-pledges-honour-debts-111305042.html
Quote from: MetalDog on February 19, 2015, 07:11:50 AM
Greece will honor its debts:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-greece-pledges-honour-debts-111305042.html
No it wont. Greece ask for 6 month extension of the loan so they can find alternative ways to wiggle out of paying. They have had 6 years to plug the holes in their economy, but they dont want to, just like spoiled brats. So whatever gives you the impression that now they will suddenly turn around and act mature.
Quote from: jejo68 on February 19, 2015, 08:20:56 AM
Quote from: MetalDog on February 19, 2015, 07:11:50 AM
Greece will honor its debts:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-greece-pledges-honour-debts-111305042.html
No it wont. Greece ask for 6 month extension of the loan so they can find alternative ways to wiggle out of paying. They have had 6 years to plug the holes in their economy, but they dont want to, just like spoiled brats. So whatever gives you the impression that now they will suddenly turn around and act mature.
Actually, the last party in power led by Samaras had a plan that it was following. Syriza (Tsipras) promised to get rid of austerity and it got voted in. After a lot of bravado in front of the EU however, now Tsipras is promising to continue where the last party left off and maintain 'fiscal balance'. I agree with Jejo (in this case). I do not fully believe Tsipras 100%.
Greece pledges fiscal prudence over interim extension period, source sayshttp://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_19/02/2015_547446 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_19/02/2015_547446)
I think people have been hiding money for months. Good luck. They know if the govt decides to switch back to the drachma, that the banks will freeze assets so as not to let everyone take money out at once.
Germany & Finland have both rejected the "offer" from Greece.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11422438/Greece-faces-off-with-creditors-live.html
I did not comment earlier on the Greek proposal. I thought that when the actual written proposal came out it would not match up with what the commie Greek Finance Minister said. Turns out - my suspicions were confirmed. The "Greek Proposal" omitted any significant means of checking to see that the Greeks actually abided by any agreement for the 6 month extension. The proposal also was almost as uselessly vague as their previous "offers."
Always have to read the fine print in financial offers.
I think Greece pulling out of NATO is pretty funny actually. Let them. And then let Turkey attack the southern half of Cyprus and the islands in the Aegean they don't already have. Europe chuckles while the Greek flounder about.
I imagine Greece doesn't bring a whole lot to the alliance table militarily.
Greece pulls out of NATO, Turkey moves on Cyrpus, Greek calls for help from...Russia??
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on February 19, 2015, 05:29:22 PM
I imagine Greece doesn't bring a whole lot to the alliance table militarily.
It has the merit of being the geographical backstop to the Dardanelles.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on February 19, 2015, 05:29:22 PM
I imagine Greece doesn't bring a whole lot to the alliance table militarily.
actually they have a fair amount and they've been exercising it pretty heavily for the last year.
IIRC they either just finished or are in the middle of an air force exercise with Israel.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 19, 2015, 07:26:22 PM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on February 19, 2015, 05:29:22 PM
I imagine Greece doesn't bring a whole lot to the alliance table militarily.
actually they have a fair amount and they've been exercising it pretty heavily for the last year.
IIRC they either just finished or are in the middle of an air force exercise with Israel.
Hmm, didn't know that. Are they willing to deploy anywhere to honor their treaty commitments? Haven't seen or heard anything about them ever having troops in Afghanistan.
I have no idea but I dont like the idea of shedding NATO members these days.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on February 19, 2015, 07:44:40 PMHaven't seen or heard anything about them ever having troops in Afghanistan.
As of November 2014, they had 8 guys with ISAF
http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2014_11/20141111_141107-ISAF-Placemat-final.pdf
that's down 1 from the month before
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 19, 2015, 07:58:29 PM
I have no idea but I dont like the idea of shedding NATO members these days.
Agreed, I iust think Greece is one member that gets far more out of the alliance than they put in. Their talk of leaving seems pretty ridiculous just from a self-interest perspective.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on February 20, 2015, 12:21:39 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 19, 2015, 07:58:29 PM
I have no idea but I dont like the idea of shedding NATO members these days.
Agreed, I iust think Greece is one member that gets far more out of the alliance than they put in. Their talk of leaving seems pretty ridiculous just from a self-interest perspective.
Never underestimate the stupidity from that country
Isn't that exactly the Greek attitude with the EU and the center of all their issues to begin with??
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 19, 2015, 12:10:33 PM
I think Greece pulling out of NATO is pretty funny actually. Let them. And then let Turkey attack the southern half of Cyprus and the islands in the Aegean they don't already have. Europe chuckles while the Greek flounder about.
Actually Turkey does not have any islands in the Aegean apart of the part of Cyprus and maybe some tiny islets very close to its shore.
Funny that Greece with all its financial problems was spending on military higher proportion of its GDP than any other European country.
Quote from: pawelj on February 21, 2015, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 19, 2015, 12:10:33 PM
I think Greece pulling out of NATO is pretty funny actually. Let them. And then let Turkey attack the southern half of Cyprus and the islands in the Aegean they don't already have. Europe chuckles while the Greek flounder about.
Actually Turkey does not have any islands in the Aegean apart of the part of Cyprus and maybe some tiny islets very close to its shore.
Funny that Greece with all its financial problems was spending on military higher proportion of its GDP than any other European country.
Greece has the majority of the islands, but apart from the piece of Cyprus, Tenedos (Bozcaada) & Imbros (Gokceada) belong to Turkey. Imbros is the largest one.
Both countries continuously contest the border lines in the Aegean, leading to air and sea encounters over the years. Greece has a much smaller population than Turkey, and the military usually pulled good weight on arguing for a large budget in the past. Mandatory conscription is also in place.
Meanwhile here is a german view on the Whole mess.
They compare greece with estonia, which both joined the Euro in 2009, and which both had finansial problems.
One is now doing very well and the other is well..... Greece.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/eurokrise/griechenland/kommentar-die-freude-am-grexit-13439839.html (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/eurokrise/griechenland/kommentar-die-freude-am-grexit-13439839.html)
QuoteGermany's Wolfgang Schaeuble, the "immovable object" in the words of one economist, stopped Greece's charismatic new finance minister Yanis Varoufakis in his tracks, forcing Athens to extend a bailout program on Friday on terms its government was just elected to get out of.
It was not just German opposition. The new Greek found itself without a single firm ally among 18 euro zone peers in its drive to reverse austerity and renegotiate its debt pile.
The 10 days it took to strike a deal featured a shambolic round of U-turns, leaked drafts and personal slights while panicked savers withdrew money and pushed Greek banks close to failure, forcing Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to step in over Varoufakis's head.
...
QuoteThe principal actors played down personal animosities during the talks; Varoufakis took pains to apologize to Schaeuble for a Greek newspaper cartoon that depicted the 72-year-old former tax lawyer as a Nazi demanding to boil Greeks down for soap.
source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/22/us-eurozone-greece-tendays-insight-idUSKBN0LQ0R020150222
Quote from: jejo68 on February 22, 2015, 01:12:19 PM
Meanwhile here is a german view on the Whole mess.
They compare greece with estonia, which both joined the Euro in 2009, and which both had finansial problems.
One is now doing very well and the other is well..... Greece.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/eurokrise/griechenland/kommentar-die-freude-am-grexit-13439839.html (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/eurokrise/griechenland/kommentar-die-freude-am-grexit-13439839.html)
Good luck to Estonia, especially with Putin around the corner. Comparing a Baltic or Nordic country with Greece is like comparing mars to venus. Not all the world will read from the same page - I'm not surprised the Germans still don't get it.
Estonia had Finland as a patron. Greece had no supporter, and then ran through any good will by it's fiscal irresponsibility.
There was another "deal" on Greece over the weekend. Greece got some short term financing - but the terms of the current loan agreements were maintained. There is supposedly room for Greece to make suggested changes going forward - but they have to put a specific offer in writing.
Most notably in the new deal, the lender countries put into place a requirement that any new deal be approved by their respective legislatures. So Greece is now in a position where they both have to convince the heads of state of the lenders, they also have to persuade their Parliaments. I think it is May or June where the big Greek debts must be refinanced - but there are multiple roadblocks that still must be navigated before you get to that point. But the Greek legislature must also approve any deals - and who knows what they will do.
A discussion of how dicey obtaining approval from the European Parliaments may be can be found at:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-23/mohamed-el-erian-now-comes-the-hard-part-for-greece
Quote from: Gusington on February 19, 2015, 05:55:26 PM
Greece pulls out of NATO, Turkey moves on Cyrpus, Greek calls for help from...Russia??
Yes , this is the point in a nutshell, if you don't keep them in NATO and the EU they will look elsewhere for help and that will only mean Russia or the Chinese.
Enough already. Greece needs to leave the Euro, but instead of the all the politicians in the eurozone being responsible, they are just stalling for time before having to take the consequenses and admit they made a mistake.
Greece supposedly agreed to repay the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on current terms.
But yesterday they said they may not make the 1.4 Billion Euro payment to the IMF required in the agreement. If Greece defaults to the IMF, they would join the illustrious company of Haiti, Zimbabwe and Afghanistan.
The new Greek Communists also announced they would give free electricity to 300,000 homes and give long payback periods to those caught cheating on their taxes if they were "deserving."
Quote from: airboy on February 28, 2015, 11:32:21 AM
The new Greek Communists also announced they would give free electricity to 300,000 homes and give long payback periods to those caught cheating on their taxes if they were "deserving."
Excellent! Rule by arbitrary values. That should stimulate their economy in oh, say, a century. ::)
Quote from: LongBlade on February 28, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
Quote from: airboy on February 28, 2015, 11:32:21 AM
The new Greek Communists also announced they would give free electricity to 300,000 homes and give long payback periods to those caught cheating on their taxes if they were "deserving."
Excellent! Rule by arbitrary values. That should stimulate their economy in oh, say, a century. ::)
A price of "free" always encourages rational use of resources.
All the Greeks have now is time.
(for MD... )
Soon the Greeks will be much like the several destitute female offspring of the sister of a famous Brazilian soccer/football player...
>:D
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 28, 2015, 03:29:02 PM
(for MD... )
Soon the Greeks will be much like the several destitute female offspring of the sister of a famous Brazilian soccer/football player...
>:D
I'm going to have to plead ignorance of the meaning, Stagger. Please don't take that as a sign to explain. ;)
Let's see how long till someone else figures it out. :coolsmiley:
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 28, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Let's see how long till someone else figures it out. :coolsmiley:
If this has anything to do with The Bachelor I'm going to lobby to get you banned.
I'm afraid that I don't know the first thing about The Bachelor. He sounds like the code name for some movie hitman or serial killer. :P
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 01, 2015, 07:33:12 AM
I'm afraid that I don't know the first thing about The Bachelor. He sounds like the code name for some movie hitman or serial killer. :P
Good. I live with three women and I know far too much about. One season they had a South American soccer player. 'Nuff said about that.
I thought The Bachelor was Star's code name for himself.
Quote from: Gusington on March 01, 2015, 02:55:04 PM
I thought The Bachelor was Star's code name for himself.
I thought it was "Z-pack."
And here we go Again. The Greek minister of Justice wants to seize all German property in Greece unless Germany pays war damage from WW2 :idiot2:
I must say that the germans are remarkably restrained in this matter. Personally I would have told them to fuck off, long time ago.
How much German property is there in Greece?
Quote from: Gusington on March 11, 2015, 05:59:25 PM
How much German property is there in Greece?
Enough to make this kinda a big deal.
Like swastikas on the Acropolis big?
Let's hope not.
I'm not a fan of the first time that happened.
This current Greek administration forgets the fact that Germany already paid back millions of deutschmarks back in the 50-60's for whatever happened. The Greeks maintained that they expected that to be an initial payment (!) and were waiting for the rest after German unification... :idiot2:
Germany made good on war reparations in Europe and to Holocaust victims families over the decades. Considering that against that Japan's record in the Pacific (another story), Greece should consider that debt as paid and move on like the rest of Europe. They play this card every time they are in the crapper. They truly give the Diaspora around the world a bad name.
Ive decided to boycott gyros.
I think the problem with that is it's all local ingredients, not much from Greece, so you'd be hurting our own economy. You're better off not to purchase actual imports (e.g. Greek olive oil, if that's your aim, or feta cheese etc)
then maybe a trade embargo on waxing products and unibrow treatments.
I think it was suggested earlier in this thread about threatening to pull NATO out of Cyprus. That might be a nice little counter to any threats of seizing properties.
All smells like ARMA 3.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 11, 2015, 08:51:07 PM
Ive decided to boycott gyros.
Hmmm. I like gyros. Maybe I'll make an exception if they're made from American beef. Or lamb. Or whatever (delicious) mystery meat it is.
The big secret is centaurs and dryads.
Quote from: besilarius on March 11, 2015, 10:00:17 PM
The big secret is centaurs and dryads.
The-ingredients-which-must-not-be-named?
I'm boycotting hairy armpits and questionable sexual mores. Guess I can't hang out here anymore.
If NATO pulled out of Cyprus the Russians would be there so quick it would snap our necks.
Quote from: LongBlade on March 11, 2015, 10:05:12 PM
Quote from: besilarius on March 11, 2015, 10:00:17 PM
The big secret is centaurs and dryads.
The-ingredients-which-must-not-be-named?
thats actually Gus secretions.
Quote from: Gusington on March 11, 2015, 10:41:50 PM
I'm boycotting hairy armpits and questionable sexual mores. Guess I can't hang out here anymore.
If NATO pulled out of Cyprus the Russians would be there so quick it would snap our necks.
Somebody needs to sig that :2funny:
I don't think the turks would make it easy for them
Even weirder, the Greek Communists are also stating that if they don't get their way that they will all move to Berlin.
See: https://euobserver.com/political/127957
Specifically:
"Tsipras' defence minister Panos Kammenos, from the nationalist party in the coalition, also recently threatened to "flood" Europe with migrants if Greece does not get a debt deal.
"If they [the Eurogroup, a body which oversees eurozone governance] strike us, we will strike them. We will give to migrants from everywhere the documents they need to travel in the Schengen area [the EU's passport free zone], so that the human wave could go straight to Berlin.""
I nominate Martok to sig that. Or you MD. I can't sig myself.
I have decided the Greeks are insane and may ignite WWIII.
Their leadership has certainly lost its marbles. They don't seem to understand that they can't fix their boat by shooting holes in someone else's.
I will say, there certainly thinking outside the box :uglystupid2:
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on March 12, 2015, 11:49:57 AM
I will say, there certainly thinking outside the box :uglystupid2:
<chuckle>
Out of the box and into the looney bin.
Quote from: Gusington on March 12, 2015, 10:25:12 AM
I nominate Martok to sig that.
Heh, done. 8)
Quote from: LongBlade on March 12, 2015, 11:51:17 AM
...and into the looney bin.
Maybe they really do belong with Russia... ::)
^Nice I am now back in Martok's sig museum after an embarrassing hiatus.
LOL. The only thing that's embarrassing is the overabundance of sig-worthy lines spouted forth by the denizens here. I could put 20, or even 50, of them in my sig area at a time, and it still wouldn't be anywhere near enough. :P
Quote from: Martok on March 12, 2015, 03:34:33 PMit still wouldn't be anywhere near enough. :P
to anyone reading on a mobile device, it'd be more than enough!
Wait, wait -- did the defense minister of the surviving part of Byzantium just declare a reverse pilgrimage to Germany's capital?
And does that count as chutzpah?
BBC is reporting that Greece wants war reparations from Germany: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31849430 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31849430)
if they try that crap, then every country from Italy to India needs to sue Greece for reparations from Alexander the Great
Gus, Jarhead and I stand to make a fortune!
people need restraint. There's a lack of it these days.
I use restraints on Mirth all the time.
And a bit of good news for anyone WHO considers a vacation in greece came the other week. The Greek minister of interior proposed to pay foreign tourist to keep an eye out for corruption when they visit the country.
So if your in need of a bit of extra Cash just sign up when it goes live.
How do the Greek citizens feel about the government paying foreigners to spy on them?
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on March 21, 2015, 08:51:23 PM
How do the Greek citizens feel about the government paying foreigners to spy on them?
Probably not as bad as they'll feel when the gov't starts asking Greek kids to spy on their folks.
That is the normal progression in a Marxist country, isn't it?
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on March 21, 2015, 09:25:13 PM
That is the normal progression in a Marxist country, isn't it?
Well, anyone that wants to be taken seriously.
Greece Unites the EU!!! Did not think that anything could - but the first paragraph of a Wall St. Journal article from 3/22
"As talks over Greece's bailout move closer to the brink, the 19 countries of the Eurozone have split into two distinct camps: Greece and the other 18."
Congratulations Greek Communists!! You united Europe against you!!
^^ Lol'd hard at that!
Greece planning to bring back the drachma?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11513341/Greece-draws-up-drachma-plans-prepares-to-miss-IMF-payment.html
I like how they say that Angela Merkel is their biggest allie, same time as they portray her as Hitler. Not quite sure what that makes the Greek politicians then ?
Quote from: jejo68 on April 03, 2015, 07:56:42 AM
I like how they say that Angela Merkel is their biggest allie, same time as they portray her as Hitler. Not quite sure what that makes the Greek politicians then ?
Must be something in the Mediterranean waters. Almost every country that has a coastline along the Med is somehow a bit squirrelly.
Lotus flowers.
You might be on to something...
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 03, 2015, 08:16:53 AM
Almost every country that has a coastline along the Med anywhere, or which is landlocked, is somehow a bit squirrelly.
Fixed that for you. :))
Greece is now turning to the US for financial help.
QuoteExtending his charm offensive to Washington DC, the flamboyant finance minister held talks with senior administration officials after meeting IMF managing director Christine Lagarde and attempting to allay fears of an imminent Greek default.
Emerging from discussions with Lagarde on Sunday, Varoufakis had insisted Greece intended "to meet all obligations to all its creditors, ad infinitum". In the coming weeks, the country faces a series of debt repayments, including a €450m (£331m) instalment to the IMF on 9 April.
Greece's leftist-led coalition is hoping to draw support from a US administration widely perceived to have taken a softer line than creditors in Europe over Athens' need to adopt austerity.
source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/06/varoufakis-extends-washington-charm-offensive-after-talks-with-lagarde
Sounds like a good national investment opportunity ::)
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on April 07, 2015, 09:38:49 AM
Sounds like a good national investment opportunity ::)
Yup. If you think those bonds sound good, let me show you my Iranian Peacetalks Special!
Thats a lot of feta cheese
well your president keeps insisting that greece needs to be in the EU and EURO so pay up bitches
fuck that. we've been paying for European bullshit for 100 years.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on April 07, 2015, 11:58:13 PM
fuck that. we've been paying for European bullshit for 100 years.
so.. ?
you can pay another 100 years so we can have an inflated welfaresystem, and dont have to spend Money on our own protection. ;)
Quote from: jejo68 on April 07, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
well your president keeps insisting that greece needs to be in the EU and EURO so pay up bitches
That kind of news doesn't make it into our news cycle so I wasn't aware we had taken that opinion.
I'm not exactly surprised - Obama seems to be incapable of making a competent decision either abroad or at home. That said, I would be interested in finding out exactly what his line of thinking is on this.
Greek :uglystupid2: PM meets with Putin.
Putin just wants to meet them:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Finfocus%2Fgreece042512%2Fs_g04_20125640.jpg&hash=333fa545eb629bc18a27a4edeeb7122c5f3483f6)
Quote from: LongBlade on April 08, 2015, 10:18:31 AM
Quote from: jejo68 on April 07, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
well your president keeps insisting that greece needs to be in the EU and EURO so pay up bitches
That kind of news doesn't make it into our news cycle so I wasn't aware we had taken that opinion.
I'm not exactly surprised - Obama seems to be incapable of making a competent decision either abroad or at home. That said, I would be interested in finding out exactly what his line of thinking is on this.
Well to be fair, not many people understand what he is up to, so I guess alot of people just guess that it must be very clever.
And in another bold move the Greek Parliament has decreed that all public institutions must hand over all Cash reserves in order for the government can meet its finansial obligations.
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-greek-parliament-okays-controversial-cash-reserve-transfer-2015-4?IR=T
Quote from: jejo68 on April 25, 2015, 10:42:04 AM
And in another bold move the Greek Parliament has decreed that all public institutions must hand over all Cash reserves in order for the government can meet its finansial obligations.
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-greek-parliament-okays-controversial-cash-reserve-transfer-2015-4?IR=T
They voted for communism, so let them have it. Heck, let them choke on it.
Quote from: Atilla60 on April 25, 2015, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: jejo68 on April 25, 2015, 10:42:04 AM
And in another bold move the Greek Parliament has decreed that all public institutions must hand over all Cash reserves in order for the government can meet its finansial obligations.
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-greek-parliament-okays-controversial-cash-reserve-transfer-2015-4?IR=T
They voted for communism, so let them have it. Heck, let them choke on it.
Agreed. They got what they wanted. Let them enjoy it.
I just feel sad for all the Greek elderly and disabled who are going to get hurt just because a bunch of political egos want to show everyone how far they can piss.
all ur gyros R belong to us!
Forget gyros, lamb souvlaki.
in communist Greece unibrow taxes you!
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 25, 2015, 01:31:28 PM
I just feel sad for all the Greek elderly and disabled who are going to get hurt just because a bunch of political egos want to show everyone how far they can piss.
I dont.
For the last 2+ dekades greece has lived way above their Means and let the rest of europe pay the Price. so fuckem
I read about Greece 3+ times a week in the business press. To summarize, the Greek government still has not presented a clear plan to avoid default. They are fast approaching when a large payment must be made and it looks unlikely that they can. Cash in Greek banks is vanishing as depositors take money out and put it in foreign banks. Greek bonds are now yielding 25%+ annually based on default risk.
Nobody is sure where this is going - but Germany & Northern Europe (especially Finland and Estonia if I'm remembering correctly) refuse to give Greece another big bag of cash. Without significant refinancing, Greece cannot pay their debts.
The private holders of Greek bonds have already been screwed. We are down to the EU, the World Bank, and individual EU countries/banks being the only holders of Greek debt to speak of.
Realistically, there is a good chance the entire Greek banking system will collapse sometime this Summer.
Quote from: jejo68 on April 26, 2015, 06:01:07 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 25, 2015, 01:31:28 PM
I just feel sad for all the Greek elderly and disabled who are going to get hurt just because a bunch of political egos want to show everyone how far they can piss.
I dont.
For the last 2+ dekades greece has lived way above their Means and let the rest of europe pay the Price. so fuckem
My 2 cents.
I certainly don't condone the actions of the Greek governments of the last 2 decades as they indeed screwed things up. When unemployment reaches ridiculous levels, and there's no hope, usually people turn to ridiculous or radical ideas. How far this goes in Greece remains to be seen. My main worry is civil strive, civil war, or a switch to an even worse government.
It could happen in many other places. I'm financially conservative when it comes to day to day spending , and I even get worried with the current financial situation of the last few provincial governments here in Quebec.
On the other hand, the lack of empathy from that comment quoted above is revealing. A while back, it would be easy for someone outside of Europe to go and say to Europe - pick up the slack and pay for your own defense. Say what you will, but I was raised to understand that pissing on folks down on the dumps isn't the high note of civilization. Yes, there are worse fates endured by many in this world, but I would not wish that misfortune on any nation.
Cheers
^Neither would I. That said, if Syriza isn't enough...will Golden Dawn step in?
Quote from: Gusington on April 26, 2015, 02:25:22 PM
^Neither would I. That said, if Syriza isn't enough...will Golden Dawn step in?
Bizarrely, I think they already have. IIRC, they are a minority coalition partner with Syriza. Syriza got into bed with them because they are an anti-austerity party as well - and it helped make up the numbers for a majority.
http://www.channel4.com/news/golden-dawn-syriza-election-what-greece-far-right-future
For those who struggle to work out who is who in Greek politics here's a 101
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30913028
http://www.occupy.com/article/greeces-other-story-golden-dawn-and-dangerous-rise-europes-far-right
Oy.
Quote from: endfire79 on April 26, 2015, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: jejo68 on April 26, 2015, 06:01:07 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 25, 2015, 01:31:28 PM
I just feel sad for all the Greek elderly and disabled who are going to get hurt just because a bunch of political egos want to show everyone how far they can piss.
I dont.
For the last 2+ dekades greece has lived way above their Means and let the rest of europe pay the Price. so fuckem
My 2 cents.
I certainly don't condone the actions of the Greek governments of the last 2 decades as they indeed screwed things up. When unemployment reaches ridiculous levels, and there's no hope, usually people turn to ridiculous or radical ideas. How far this goes in Greece remains to be seen. My main worry is civil strive, civil war, or a switch to an even worse government.
It could happen in many other places. I'm financially conservative when it comes to day to day spending , and I even get worried with the current financial situation of the last few provincial governments here in Quebec.
On the other hand, the lack of empathy from that comment quoted above is revealing. A while back, it would be easy for someone outside of Europe to go and say to Europe - pick up the slack and pay for your own defense. Say what you will, but I was raised to understand that pissing on folks down on the dumps isn't the high note of civilization. Yes, there are worse fates endured by many in this world, but I would not wish that misfortune on any nation.
Cheers
So how many times do you feel pity for the guy WHO flips you the bird when you help him ?
Greece could have been way out of this mess if they wanted to, but instead they have chosen Again and Again to give the rest of europe the finger. Oh and having the Greeks calling Angela merkel a nazi etc isnt really helping alot.
I realize nothing will change your point of view, but it sucks to be in your 60s 70s there, powerless to do much against fruitcake governments that have screwed up your retirement or your grand kids future. Imagine you were in those shoes.
Quote from: endfire79 on April 27, 2015, 06:25:29 AM
I realize nothing will change your point of view, but it sucks to be in your 60s 70s there, powerless to do much against fruitcake governments that have screwed up your retirement or your grand kids future.
That's the sad part - a lot of very poor decisions are going to have a very real effect.
Quote from: endfire79 on April 27, 2015, 06:25:29 AM
I realize nothing will change your point of view, but it sucks to be in your 60s 70s there, powerless to do much against fruitcake governments that have screwed up your retirement or your grand kids future. Imagine you were in those shoes.
yeah ? well if it took them 70 years to grow up then maybe its about time.
Its not like they havent been warned about what would happen. In fact greece has been told time and Again that you cant Work 35 hours a week. retire at 56 with 80% of your salary paid by the government while at the same time the workers pay almost no tax. At some point the bill has to be paid and if you dont want to plan ahead but instead choose to let others pay for you and at the same time spit them in the face, well F... you.
And yes am angry.
Angry that they still dont want to grow up and face the facts.
Angry that the rest of europe has dumped 100' of billions of euro into their shitty country.
angry that we still has to dump 100' of billions of euro more into this mess.
Angry that even if they choose to default on their loans, other European countries including my own has vouched even more 100' of billions of euros for these s...h..ds so no matter what we are going to pay all the while they spit us in the face and blame the rest of europe for their missery.
Quote from: jejo68 on April 27, 2015, 08:46:30 AM
Quote from: endfire79 on April 27, 2015, 06:25:29 AM
I realize nothing will change your point of view, but it sucks to be in your 60s 70s there, powerless to do much against fruitcake governments that have screwed up your retirement or your grand kids future. Imagine you were in those shoes.
yeah ? well if it took them 70 years to grow up then maybe its about time.
Its not like they havent been warned about what would happen. In fact greece has been told time and Again that you cant Work 35 hours a week. retire at 56 with 80% of your salary paid by the government while at the same time the workers pay almost no tax. At some point the bill has to be paid and if you dont want to plan ahead but instead choose to let others pay for you and at the same time spit them in the face, well F... you.
Many have been saying this about
all of Europe for a while.
And it's helpful to remember that even thought they are a minority, I assume many Greeks have still been voting against the kind of incompetence their government has been displaying.
^ A lot do, but ever seen the ballot box at a Greek election? I remember I was there and in Turkey back in 2007 while elections were on. There's like 50+ different parties... crazy. The people are getting fed up. The 'mostly' sane parties got voted out. I wouldn't necessarily fear a military junta as it was in the late 60's - things actually got done back then. What I do fear is for more crackpots (e.g. Golden Dawn neo-fascists). To them clearly all the problems were due to the xeno (the foreigners). It had 'nothing' to do with paying their taxes and a general lack of due diligence.
I keep reading and watching documentaries of Germany in 1918-1923 and the grog and history buff in me can't help imaging a similar scenario coming back (the economic chaos, the internal strife, divisions amongst the society, the multitude of political forces, the radicals of the left & right). Granted it is probably not as bad as it was back then, but it's making me think twice about going back this year every time my wife asks me about it.
Don't get too soft on the colonels. Even Mussolini got the trains to run on time.
Back in "73 (I think) when the students at Athens University demonstrated, they sent in the tanks and shelled some dormitories.
Controlling the television stations, they tried to blame the students for this destruction. (We had to destroy the univeristy to save the university.)
Quote from: endfire79 on April 27, 2015, 06:25:29 AM
I realize nothing will change your point of view, but it sucks to be in your 60s 70s there, powerless to do much against fruitcake governments that have screwed up your retirement or your grand kids future. Imagine you were in those shoes.
I'd add that the colossal screw up is nothing to do with the ordinary Greeks - who are paying for it, but a lot to do with a corrupt government (including giving government jobs out as political largesse to supporters) and a rich élite that won't pay their taxes. Does it sound familiar?
Quote from: jejo68 on April 27, 2015, 08:46:30 AM
Quote from: endfire79 on April 27, 2015, 06:25:29 AM
I realize nothing will change your point of view, but it sucks to be in your 60s 70s there, powerless to do much against fruitcake governments that have screwed up your retirement or your grand kids future. Imagine you were in those shoes.
yeah ? well if it took them 70 years to grow up then maybe its about time.
Its not like they havent been warned about what would happen. In fact greece has been told time and Again that you cant Work 35 hours a week. retire at 56 with 80% of your salary paid by the government while at the same time the workers pay almost no tax. At some point the bill has to be paid and if you dont want to plan ahead but instead choose to let others pay for you and at the same time spit them in the face, well F... you.
And yes am angry.
Angry that they still dont want to grow up and face the facts.
Angry that the rest of europe has dumped 100' of billions of euro into their shitty country.
angry that we still has to dump 100' of billions of euro more into this mess.
Angry that even if they choose to default on their loans, other European countries including my own has vouched even more 100' of billions of euros for these s...h..ds so no matter what we are going to pay all the while they spit us in the face and blame the rest of europe for their missery.
I'm SOOOO glad the UK is not in the Eurozone. I can totally get where Jejo68 is coming from, and I won't be sorry if the UK votes in its referendum to exit the EU either. I don't blame the ordinary Greeks for the mess, but I do their government and rich élite as they have both worked hard to impoverish the country. Telling Germany that they need to pay for war reparations is just laughable now.
The next catastrophe due is when the EU sleepwalks into open door immigration from the Med... oh, I forget... it already has. I wonder how they will find the money to subsidise all the new migrants, when they can't even look out for their own citizens? I suppose the EU politicians think it will get them new votes.... :uglystupid2:
Alot of people here hopes UK exit the EU. might perhaps be the wakeup call many politicians needs.
Oh and what do you mean about the immigrants ? the 1mill + that UNHCR has reported is on its way to europe from syria and libya alone or are we talking about when the population in Africa has doubled within the NeXT 20 years even though they can hardly feed themselves today ?
Quote from: jejo68 on April 28, 2015, 11:28:27 AM
Alot of people here hopes UK exit the EU. might perhaps be the wakeup call many politicians needs.
Oh and what do you mean about the immigrants ? the 1mill + that UNHCR has reported is on its way to europe from syria and libya alone or are we talking about when the population in Africa has doubled within the NeXT 20 years even though they can hardly feed themselves today ?
Yep, those are the ones! When you think that 10% of the Swedish population is now Middle Eastern/African migrants, has record migrant related crime, and Swedish politicians are saying there is no "Swedish" culture you have to question the impact of mass immigration on the indigent populations of Europe. I was going to field an Arab Conquest army in Field of Glory with a Swedish friend for a laugh, but on reflection thought it wouldn't go down well.
I was going to say just be glad you are in Denmark, but I gather a large number of jihadis are in fact from Denmark! I saw a news item with returned jihadis in Aalborg, and the police seemed very "accommodating" to them to help them get settled back into society. To say it seemed naïve is understatement. At least in the UK, they'd get arrested for terrorism.
A 12 minute primer on the situation as it now stands.
So good news from greece this week.
They managed to pay the 750mill euro they owed this week. Ofcourse only 100mill was paid by the Greeks themselves, and the 650mill euro was paid for by using the IMF emergency fund :crazy2:
So in 2 weeks they are back to Square one.
https://youtu.be/Z1LCBp0twLE
A good video from the horse's mouth. He goes back and forth between Greece and Germany taking opinions. From workers to PMs.
As much grief as the US Federal system gets nowadays (in some circles, nostalgic for the Articles of Confederation -- including from me, to be honest), in the Eurozone (and outside it, in situations which led to the Eurozone at all) we're probably looking at an abbreviated result of playing out the Articles over a few decades. :P
And round 3 of the Greek tragedy. All Greek embassies now has to send all available Cash back to greece. Yup if you ever wanted to know how much a government can fuck up in just 4 month, just follow greece ::)
Quote from: jejo68 on May 18, 2015, 02:40:11 AM
And round 3 of the Greek tragedy. All Greek embassies now has to send all available Cash back to greece. Yup if you ever wanted to know how much a government can fuck up in just 4 month, just follow greece ::)
Adding to the tragedy is apparently ignorance:
QuoteJewish groups are expressing outrage and concern after Greek officials demanded that the Star of David be removed from the outside of a new Holocaust museum on the eve of its opening, according to multiple statements released by these groups.
...
QuoteOnly two days before the ceremony, the mayor and a majority of the city council are insisting that the image of the Star of David be removed before the monument can be displayed," the AJC said in a statement.
"There are no words to express adequately our shock and dismay at this news," said AJC executive director David Harris was quoted as saying in the group's statement.
Greece, like other countries in Europe, continues to be plagued by growing anti-Semitism. Nearly all of Greece's once-vibrant Jewish population was murdered during the Holocaust.
source: http://freebeacon.com/issues/greek-officials-demand-jewish-star-be-removed-from-holocaust-museum/
^Great :/
Quote from: LongBlade on May 18, 2015, 05:46:45 PM
Quote from: jejo68 on May 18, 2015, 02:40:11 AM
And round 3 of the Greek tragedy. All Greek embassies now has to send all available Cash back to greece. Yup if you ever wanted to know how much a government can fuck up in just 4 month, just follow greece ::)
Adding to the tragedy is apparently ignorance:
QuoteJewish groups are expressing outrage and concern after Greek officials demanded that the Star of David be removed from the outside of a new Holocaust museum on the eve of its opening, according to multiple statements released by these groups.
...
QuoteOnly two days before the ceremony, the mayor and a majority of the city council are insisting that the image of the Star of David be removed before the monument can be displayed," the AJC said in a statement.
"There are no words to express adequately our shock and dismay at this news," said AJC executive director David Harris was quoted as saying in the group's statement.
Greece, like other countries in Europe, continues to be plagued by growing anti-Semitism. Nearly all of Greece's once-vibrant Jewish population was murdered during the Holocaust.
source: http://freebeacon.com/issues/greek-officials-demand-jewish-star-be-removed-from-holocaust-museum/
Really?
I can come up with a few sentences.
At the top of my lungs.
Quote
Greek hospitals have run out of supplies such as painkillers, scissors and sheets as swingeing budget cuts have left the health service unable to provide even basic provisions for operations and medical procedures.
Huge cuts to the healthcare budget, amid the economic turmoil which made millions unemployed, have left than 2.5m Greeks uninsured, up from 500,000 in 2008, the Times reported.
On coming to power the Syriza government scrapped the €5 fee for attending state hospitals and pledged to hire 4,500 more health workers, despite the need for austerity and criticism from creditors.
Notwithstanding the government's promises, healthcare spending has fallen by 25 per cent since 2009, creating shortages of the most basic surgical equipment and leaving too little money to pay nurses' salaries.
Reports have surfaced of patients being turned away from hospital because there was no meter to measure their high blood pressure, while others have had to do without painkillers during medical procedures. One patient was even asked to bring their own sheets to hospital.
A trainee surgeon at KAT, a respected state hospital in Athens, said the situation was at "breaking point".
source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-hospitals-cannot-afford-painkillers-scissors-or-sheets-as-budget-cuts-bite-10271819.html
One sentence stands out here - the lack of blood pressure meters. I'm not sure about how long blood pressure meters last, but something in my experience suggests their utility is not expressed in weeks. (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Fheadscratch.gif&hash=8603e6684adb44bdc2ee527335efa8e297a88686)
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2015, 11:46:08 PM
Quote
Greek hospitals have run out of supplies such as painkillers, scissors and sheets as swingeing budget cuts have left the health service unable to provide even basic provisions for operations and medical procedures.
Huge cuts to the healthcare budget, amid the economic turmoil which made millions unemployed, have left than 2.5m Greeks uninsured, up from 500,000 in 2008, the Times reported.
On coming to power the Syriza government scrapped the €5 fee for attending state hospitals and pledged to hire 4,500 more health workers, despite the need for austerity and criticism from creditors.
Notwithstanding the government's promises, healthcare spending has fallen by 25 per cent since 2009, creating shortages of the most basic surgical equipment and leaving too little money to pay nurses' salaries.
Reports have surfaced of patients being turned away from hospital because there was no meter to measure their high blood pressure, while others have had to do without painkillers during medical procedures. One patient was even asked to bring their own sheets to hospital.
A trainee surgeon at KAT, a respected state hospital in Athens, said the situation was at "breaking point".
source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-hospitals-cannot-afford-painkillers-scissors-or-sheets-as-budget-cuts-bite-10271819.html
One sentence stands out here - the lack of blood pressure meters. I'm not sure about how long blood pressure meters last, but something in my experience suggests their utility is not expressed in weeks. (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Fheadscratch.gif&hash=8603e6684adb44bdc2ee527335efa8e297a88686)
Waiting for the Commie Toilet Paper theory to be triggered.
Some point after a new communist leadership takes over any country and starts mucking things up, widespread toilet paper shortages are a great indicator of the moment their economy entered free-fall. :))
On another note about Greece, new developments on Philip's tomb.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/05/16/new-evidence-for-king-philip-ii-tomb-in-vergina/
This is some pretty good analysis of the impact of a withdrawal of Greece from the EU currency band. It is clear that Greece is going to default on a payment due next month.
Withdrawing from the EU would be "catastrophic" for the Greek economy, its banking system, and also the EU as it is feared a domino effect could happen with other countries withdrawing from the Euro.
In addition there has already been a withdrawal of 30 billion Euros from the Greek banking system, with more likely to come.
Anyway, more at the link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11626969/Greece-to-miss-IMF-payments-amid-fears-of-catastrophic-eurozone-rupture.html
This is all happening at a very convenient time for a certain other Orthodox country, being that it is having a bit of a crisis on it's own border (albeit of it's own making). I have to wonder if there has been some secret mischief making, a little nudge here, a sweet bribe there, by the the aforementioned outside party which is causing some of these Greek politicians to make the choices they are.
Perhaps a little offshore accounting forensics may prove enlightening to the Greek public.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 25, 2015, 10:21:55 AM
This is some pretty good analysis of the impact of a withdrawal of Greece from the EU currency band. It is clear that Greece is going to default on a payment due next month.
Withdrawing from the EU would be "catastrophic" for the Greek economy, its banking system, and also the EU as it is feared a domino effect could happen with other countries withdrawing from the Euro.
In addition there has already been a withdrawal of 30 billion Euros from the Greek banking system, with more likely to come.
Anyway, more at the link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11626969/Greece-to-miss-IMF-payments-amid-fears-of-catastrophic-eurozone-rupture.html
You mean more catastrophic then the rest of EU having to pump 100' of billions of euros into the Greek economi every year indefenately because Greek doesn want to pay its own bills ?
Quote from: jejo68 on May 25, 2015, 04:04:15 PM
You mean more catastrophic then the rest of EU having to pump 100' of billions of euros into the Greek economi every year indefenately because Greek doesn want to pay its own bills ?
It could. The article goes into it in more depth.
The money that leaves makes other economies stronger.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 25, 2015, 10:21:55 AM
This is some pretty good analysis of the impact of a withdrawal of Greece from the EU currency band. It is clear that Greece is going to default on a payment due next month.
Withdrawing from the EU would be "catastrophic" for the Greek economy, its banking system, and also the EU as it is feared a domino effect could happen with other countries withdrawing from the Euro.
In addition there has already been a withdrawal of 30 billion Euros from the Greek banking system, with more likely to come.
Anyway, more at the link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11626969/Greece-to-miss-IMF-payments-amid-fears-of-catastrophic-eurozone-rupture.html
My own opinion on the EU and the EU currency aside
I still believe leaving the Euro-zone (currency) is the smartest move for Greece. If not the only option.
However, considering the current government in Athens, I can't help thinking their "solution" would be printing Drachmas in abundance and then some.
Which, kind of, brings up Stagger's Toilet Paper theory above ....and a 5 year plan on top of it
So, at some point the ordinary Greek realizes that his standard of living has dropped below that of an ordinary Albanian.
Then what?
Quote from: Atilla60 on May 26, 2015, 01:16:58 AM
So, at some point the ordinary Greek realizes that his standard of living has dropped below that of an ordinary Albanian.
Then what?
They emigrate to other EU countries. Our local bakery employs Greeks who have no illusions that their country has imploded on itself, thanks to the wealthy elite who did not pay their taxes, and the political classes who traded jobs for votes. Now they have a wave of illegal immigration (as with Italy) via Turkey threatening to destabilise their country further with demands on social spending etc. It will not end well.
I have a lot of sympathy for the ordinary Greeks who are paying the price of government folly, nepotism, and self-interest of the very rich in Greece. They should never have gone into the Eurozone, and there are a lot of people in the EU Institutions who could have dissuaded them for sound economic reasons. They didn't because the Eurozone forms part of another agenda of creeping EU power, which was more persuasive for the Eurocrats. Now they are "a problem" for the rest of Europe, so I'm glad we have the referendum coming up so we in the UK have a chance to get out of this protectionist, self-promoting, and unaccountable quasi state. With Spain, Italy and Portugal all looking very shaky economically it is all a disaster waiting to happen with Greece just being an early indicator.
When I think of all my fellow evangelicals over the decades who have decried the EU as the coming Ten Heads of the Beast, I just want to roflol.
Greece failed to make a loan payment on time. They claim they will "cover that payment and 3 other required payments by the end of June."
Don't hold your breath.
IMF just announced that they will stop further negotiation with greece.
So now its up to the euronations if they still wants to continue the farce, or stop the show for good.
Greece is done, nobody will give them the time of day. They will roll on the floor screaming till they are blue in the face.
The question will be italy and spain.
And the answer is Spain and Italy thinking: 'We don't want to end up too deep in the crapper to pull ourselves out, like those Greeks...'
The problem for ordinary Greeks is that they are already suffering hugely under austerity measures already. The Greek government have as much chance of paying off their debts as a snowball in hell, so in many ways it is far better to write off the debt on the understanding that Greece will exit the Eurozone and readopt the drachma, Maintaining this debt farce is delusional. It'll never get paid and will cripple any chance of Greece ever picking itself off the floor. Far better for the ECB to cut its losses now than persist in a charade that will just hamper the Greek economy, as well as damage the rest of Europe by continuing to pay out further loans that will never be paid back. If anything financial support for Greece leaving the euro is a very good thing as a transition measure, on the proviso that it is actually used to restart the Greek economy (like a Marshall plan lite) as opposed to the government spending any cash for restructuring on pet projects, their own bank accounts etc...
Quote from: Boggit on June 17, 2015, 07:04:46 PM
as opposed to the government spending any cash for restructuring on pet projects, their own bank accounts etc...
Another snowball in hell.
Quote from: Boggit on June 17, 2015, 07:04:46 PM
The problem for ordinary Greeks is that they are already suffering hugely under austerity measures already. The Greek government have as much chance of paying off their debts as a snowball in hell, so in many ways it is far better to write off the debt on the understanding that Greece will exit the Eurozone and readopt the drachma, Maintaining this debt farce is delusional. It'll never get paid and will cripple any chance of Greece ever picking itself off the floor. Far better for the ECB to cut its losses now than persist in a charade that will just hamper the Greek economy, as well as damage the rest of Europe by continuing to pay out further loans that will never be paid back. If anything financial support for Greece leaving the euro is a very good thing as a transition measure, on the proviso that it is actually used to restart the Greek economy (like a Marshall plan lite) as opposed to the government spending any cash for restructuring on pet projects, their own bank accounts etc...
I agree that Greece will never pay this debt off in Euros. The negotiation is about Greece getting some amount of new funding for additional belt tightening and following the current loan agreement. Either Greece will agree to the terms, the Europeans will cave, or the Greek banking system fails. The financial press reports huge withdrawals of cash from Greek bank accounts.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 17, 2015, 08:33:29 PM
Quote from: Boggit on June 17, 2015, 07:04:46 PM
as opposed to the government spending any cash for restructuring on pet projects, their own bank accounts etc...
Another snowball in hell.
As you recognise, this is a BIG what if, and past performance as an indicator is NOT good.
Quote from: airboy on June 18, 2015, 09:04:09 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 17, 2015, 07:04:46 PM
The problem for ordinary Greeks is that they are already suffering hugely under austerity measures already. The Greek government have as much chance of paying off their debts as a snowball in hell, so in many ways it is far better to write off the debt on the understanding that Greece will exit the Eurozone and readopt the drachma, Maintaining this debt farce is delusional. It'll never get paid and will cripple any chance of Greece ever picking itself off the floor. Far better for the ECB to cut its losses now than persist in a charade that will just hamper the Greek economy, as well as damage the rest of Europe by continuing to pay out further loans that will never be paid back. If anything financial support for Greece leaving the euro is a very good thing as a transition measure, on the proviso that it is actually used to restart the Greek economy (like a Marshall plan lite) as opposed to the government spending any cash for restructuring on pet projects, their own bank accounts etc...
I agree that Greece will never pay this debt off in Euros. The negotiation is about Greece getting some amount of new funding for additional belt tightening and following the current loan agreement. Either Greece will agree to the terms, the Europeans will cave, or the Greek banking system fails. The financial press reports huge withdrawals of cash from Greek bank accounts.
The problem is that the whole thing is a circular issue, and something HAS to be done to break the debt cycle or it will just continue to be a regular expense to the ECB/IMF with absolutely no hope of being resolved. If anything, the debt will just get bigger with swathes of Greeks migrating elsewhere into the EU as they'll have no future at home. By doing something along the lines of what I suggested in my previous post there is a possible solution to a situation that for all practical purposes is beyond repair. By amortising the debt, and allocating funds to rebuild the shattered Greek economy (Over the last year GDP fell by 25% according to the BBC) they have a chance to rebuild their country to stand on its own feet. I'd add that Staggerwing's 'snowball in hell' comment is sufficient justification to ensure that any funds for rebuilding are strictly monitored and controlled both by the lending institutions and by the EU Council of Ministers (although my faith in the absence of corruption in EU institutions is hardly what you'd call confident... :( )
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
Quote from: airboy on June 19, 2015, 11:14:30 AM
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
Unfortunately the EU has its head in the sand still coming out with the same old wishful thinking rhetoric, and the Greek government continue playing games in the belief that the EU will just go along with things. Both sides need to seriously sit down and address the issue with a sensible plan that can actually work if the EU doesn't want to be permanently burdened with Greek debt, and the Greek government doesn't want to see its economy implode with all the social and political catastrophe that will come with it.
I'm thinking that one of the problems is that the Greeks at the helm of Greece's gov't don't keep their money in Greek banks.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 19, 2015, 10:01:11 PM
I'm thinking that one of the problems is that the Greeks at the helm of Greece's gov't don't keep their money in Greek banks.
I'm thinking that the Greeks at the helm of their govt don't have any money to put in banks.
Quote from: LongBlade on June 20, 2015, 09:49:18 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 19, 2015, 10:01:11 PM
I'm thinking that one of the problems is that the Greeks at the helm of Greece's gov't don't keep their money in Greek banks.
I'm thinking that the Greeks at the helm of their govt don't have any money to put in banks.
Lol! That is funny. :2funny: Sadly the reality isn't for your average Greek. :(
Quote from: Boggit on June 19, 2015, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: airboy on June 19, 2015, 11:14:30 AM
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
Unfortunately the EU has its head in the sand still coming out with the same old wishful thinking rhetoric, and the Greek government continue playing games in the belief that the EU will just go along with things. Both sides need to seriously sit down and address the issue with a sensible plan that can actually work if the EU doesn't want to be permanently burdened with Greek debt, and the Greek government doesn't want to see its economy implode with all the social and political catastrophe that will come with it.
Yeah kick greece the hell out of the EURO. Russia has said they are willing to borrow greece some Money, let them have all the trouble from now on.
Quote from: Boggit on June 19, 2015, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: airboy on June 19, 2015, 11:14:30 AM
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
Unfortunately the EU has its head in the sand still coming out with the same old wishful thinking rhetoric, and the Greek government continue playing games in the belief that the EU will just go along with things. Both sides need to seriously sit down and address the issue with a sensible plan that can actually work if the EU doesn't want to be permanently burdened with Greek debt, and the Greek government doesn't want to see its economy implode with all the social and political catastrophe that will come with it.
I do not think there is a reasonable conclusion other than default by Greece. The EU does not want to throw even more money at Greece. The Greek government was elected on a promise to a] keep the EU & the Euro; b] Greek debts are forgiven; c] Greece gets to spend tons of other people's money on pensions & government workers. The rest of the EU knows that if they give Greece even more money to blow that they will get tossed out by their voters.
I don't give the Greek banking system 14 more days before either a default or currency controls. Greece is already in default on their payments with a bunch more due on June 30. Greece does not have the money, can't print more Euros, and their cash on hand is rapidly going into mattresses. This is a pretty classic banking collapse situation.
Airboy,
If the Greek banking system does go critical and melts down through whatever containment infrastructure was supposed to keep it intact what will the immediate Euro fallout be? What about the rest of the world economy? Would it be just a blip on the dosimeter or something more insidious in the longterm?
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 21, 2015, 08:26:31 PM
Airboy,
If the Greek banking system does go critical and melts down through whatever containment infrastructure was supposed to keep it intact what will the immediate Euro fallout be? What about the rest of the world economy? Would it be just a blip on the dosimeter or something more insidious in the longterm?
Greece has already defaulted on government bond holdings to private investors in previous restructurings. Loans to Greek banks by the private sector are also relatively minimal ($13 billion). The Greek paper is mostly being held by the EU Central Bank or by other individual EU countries central banks.
Greek stock market is down 50% in the last several months.
Until something happens, you never know what the actual impact will be. But most of the private money left Greek bonds (or was defaulted already) a long time ago. No country has left the Euro yet - so the impact of that is unknown.
The aggregate markets have been relatively quiet in the last 3 weeks (Portugal, Spain, German Bonds) etc.... except of course for Greece itself. The Euro is up in June against the dollar.
If I could predict the future, I would be really wealthy. But this is what has happened in the recent past.
What I wonder most about is how many entities see Greece as a good excuse to write of bad debts? If central banks pick up the pieces, casino capitalism continues as a cant lose proposition.
Quote from: jejo68 on June 21, 2015, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 19, 2015, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: airboy on June 19, 2015, 11:14:30 AM
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
Unfortunately the EU has its head in the sand still coming out with the same old wishful thinking rhetoric, and the Greek government continue playing games in the belief that the EU will just go along with things. Both sides need to seriously sit down and address the issue with a sensible plan that can actually work if the EU doesn't want to be permanently burdened with Greek debt, and the Greek government doesn't want to see its economy implode with all the social and political catastrophe that will come with it.
Yeah kick greece the hell out of the EURO. Russia has said they are willing to borrow greece some Money, let them have all the trouble from now on.
Greece should never have been in the Eurozone. This has more to do with the Commission's "European Federal project" than anything founded in economic reality. You are right, Greece should leave the Euro, but unless you want a completely failed state within the EU with Greeks migrating en masse to other states under the provisions of the Treaty of Rome, we need to amortise their debt, and put in place money to rebuild their economy if they are to not continue to rely on EU support ad infinitum. Greeks are already migrating from Greece because of conditions there.
Quote from: Boggit on June 25, 2015, 07:49:49 PM
Quote from: jejo68 on June 21, 2015, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 19, 2015, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: airboy on June 19, 2015, 11:14:30 AM
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
Unfortunately the EU has its head in the sand still coming out with the same old wishful thinking rhetoric, and the Greek government continue playing games in the belief that the EU will just go along with things. Both sides need to seriously sit down and address the issue with a sensible plan that can actually work if the EU doesn't want to be permanently burdened with Greek debt, and the Greek government doesn't want to see its economy implode with all the social and political catastrophe that will come with it.
Yeah kick greece the hell out of the EURO. Russia has said they are willing to borrow greece some Money, let them have all the trouble from now on.
Greece should never have been in the Eurozone. This has more to do with the Commission's "European Federal project" than anything founded in economic reality. You are right, Greece should leave the Euro, but unless you want a completely failed state within the EU with Greeks migrating en masse to other states under the provisions of the Treaty of Rome, we need to amortise their debt, and put in place money to rebuild their economy if they are to not continue to rely on EU support ad infinitum. Greeks are already migrating from Greece because of conditions there.
Well tbh I dont mind a Greek failstate. I am tired of always having to clean up after these s..th..ds, and especially since they dont want to learn, dont want to fez up to what they are doing and wants me to pay for their failstate. All the while they are spitting in my face. So F. them.
Since you bring up the European Federal Project, Boggit: I think we're seeing some of the hard-coded limits to a European Federal project here. ;)
Europe is not a federal state, and I'm doubtful it even counts as a confederated union at this point. These are nations with long-standing competitive identity issues, many of which are composed of sub-states who themselves have long-standing competitive identity issues. And by long-standing I of course mean centuries and even a few millennia. (Sidenote: the forum doesn't recognize how to spell millennia. Or "sidenote" for that matter. ;) ) And by competitive I mean 'mother of wars'; and also I mean that some of the competitive subunits haven't been incorporated into the current nations for very long, whether in decades or much more than a century, and even some of the nations are relatively recent (or recently reconstituted).
Maybe that's just as well: who wants the ten heads of the beast actually rising, yo? ;) >:D But it's directly related to fiscal irresponsibility without federal oversight.
oh to be a daycare worker in greece.
start your career at 18 and after 20 years you can retire with full benefits.
And they dont understand why the economy fails :idiot2:
It looks like there will be no olive branch for Greece.
Just read an article indicating there are caps on withdrawals from both banks and ATMs. That's never a good sign. If the banks open on Monday I suspect there will be a huge run on them.
Meanwhile the PM has called for a referendum on the Euro. As if Greece has much choice at this point.
Quote from: LongBlade on June 27, 2015, 05:11:39 PM
Meanwhile the PM has called for a referendum on the Euro. As if Greece has much choice at this point.
He's washing hands, :smiley6600:
Quote from: airboy on June 19, 2015, 11:14:30 AM
The Greek banking system may fall in the next 7 days. Yesterday 1 billion Euros in cash were withdrawn. Odds are pretty high that there will be a big bank run next week where depositors want their money in cash - and the Greek banking system cannot survive that. Talks between the EU & Greece broke down in acrimony last night.
I think the end will be June 30 to July 2. The EU does not seem willing to spend additional taxpayer money to bailout Greece. The Greek Government is calling for a "referendum" - but if the Greek people vote "yes" so what??? They are asking for a vote to allow a referendum that won't take place before Greek banks go under. Would the Greek Parliament vote to accept the EU terms if the referendum is "yes?"
Quote from: Atilla60 on June 27, 2015, 05:41:32 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on June 27, 2015, 05:11:39 PM
Meanwhile the PM has called for a referendum on the Euro. As if Greece has much choice at this point.
He's washing hands, :smiley6600:
Agree.
Per CNBC, Greek banks will NOT open tomorrow, Monday 29 June.
If this somehow ends up raising the rate on my upcoming car loan I'll never eat greek yoghurt again!
https://euobserver.com/news/129352 (https://euobserver.com/news/129352)
Under the heading of be careful what you wish for - I added the emphasis on the geopolitical fallout
QuoteFor years Greece has muddled along with a depressed economy and an endless series of bailouts and austerity. It's fine to play the blame game over how public debt got out of control in the country, but by the time 2010 came around what was done was done, and the human consequences of austerity have been grave.
The Greek government apparently agrees that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again.
What happens now? This isn't 2010. European banks, governments and financial markets have had years to develop contingency plans for what will happen if Greece exits the euro. There may be a middle ground, too, in which Greece semi-exits the euro: Imagine keeping the currency but with such strict and permanent capital controls that Greek's euros are actually a different currency from the one used in Paris or Rome.
Expect the E.C.B. and European institutions to deploy enormous financial firepower to prevent a Greek exit from spilling over to Portugal and Italy and Spain. But saying that this won't be a Lehman Brothers-style economic catastrophe isn't the same as saying it would be a good thing. In geopolitical terms it would push Greece closer to a hostile Russia. It would set a precedent that the European currency, and the European Union more broadly, is more fragile than its leaders would like the world to think.
The world should be rooting for a happy outcome to this Greek tragedy. It's just not at all clear what a happy outcome would look like at this point.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/upshot/the-next-few-days-will-transform-greece-and-europe.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 28, 2015, 02:28:55 PM
If this somehow ends up raising the rate on my upcoming car loan I'll never eat greek yoghurt again!
You may have to take out a loan to
buy Greek yoghurt.......
As I've said before, Greek government debt is not held by the private sector outside of Greece. Greece already defaulted on their government debt to private holders. It is unlikely that the fall of the Greek banking system and the exit from the Euro will have a domino effect in Europe this year.
Also - I almost predicted this to the day. Wish I had known a way to make money off of my prediction.
Quote from: airboy on June 28, 2015, 06:23:47 PM
Wish I had known a way to make money off of my prediction.
Start going short on futures of the Drachma :coolsmiley:
Going short has been a proven successful strategy for me for 41 years.
Quote from: Gusington on June 29, 2015, 07:12:18 AM
Going short has been a proven successful strategy for me for 41 years.
How does that work out for you in the bedroom?
Con
It grows on her.
Gus is known as Improportionally Gifted. Also known as Inversely Gifted.
It's been rumored that while walking along the nude beach Gus drew a line in the sand.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 29, 2015, 08:57:23 PM
It's been rumored that while walking along the nude beach Gus drew a line in the sand.
And won Limbo at the same time.
And stirred everyone's drinks.
... from across the room.
Ok terrific - with that out of the way, has Greece imploded yet?
First siesta, then implosion.
Quote from: Gusington on June 30, 2015, 07:05:40 PM
Ok terrific - with that out of the way, has Greece imploded yet?
No, just a dead cat bounce in the markets today.
Quote from: Gusington on June 30, 2015, 07:05:40 PM
Ok terrific - with that out of the way, has Greece imploded yet?
Yes, it just doesn't know it yet.
Hmm...are we all in agreement that Greece will be out of the EU this time next year?
Quote from: Gusington on July 01, 2015, 06:50:08 AM
Hmm...are we all in agreement that Greece will be out of the EU this time next year?
Greece defaulted on their loan payments yesterday (June 30).
Greece has been denied additional emergency cash transfusions - so their ability to hand out Euros at Banks & ATMs is over unless an agreement is reached. Current limits are 60 Euros max withdrawal a day from ATMs - but that is also not sustainable. Their Banks were all shut this week.
Pretty quickly (less than 14 days) they must either have a massive infusion of Euros from outside the country or launch the Drachma again. I'm betting Drachma.
Countrywide financial disasters often take a long time to happen, but when the occur the final crash itself is usually more sudden than laypeople think can happen.
Quote from: Gusington on July 01, 2015, 06:50:08 AM
Hmm...are we all in agreement that Greece will be out of the EU this time next month?
Fixed
Quote from: Gusington on July 01, 2015, 06:50:08 AM
Hmm...are we all in agreement that Greece will be out of the EU this time next year?
Unfixed :D
Seriously though.
Currently Greece is de facto out of the Eurozone. Formally, like Airboy said, it's a matter of days .
IMHO
A year from now?
Out of the Schengen Treaty? Probably. The EU? I don't think so.
Not all countries in the EU use the Euro.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 01, 2015, 05:50:08 PM
Not all countries in the EU use the Euro.
So true. Took a river cruise on the Eastern Danube and many of the countries (even Romania) were in the EU and NATO but did not have the Euro. After the Greek debacle, the EU became much more careful about allowing countries to adopt the Euro.
Quote from: airboy on July 02, 2015, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 01, 2015, 05:50:08 PM
Not all countries in the EU use the Euro.
So true. Took a river cruise on the Eastern Danube and many of the countries (even Romania) were in the EU and NATO but did not have the Euro. After the Greek debacle, the EU became much more careful about allowing countries to adopt the Euro.
Actually its quite the other way around. Most countries that was in the proces of entering said no no, we no wanna go.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33370589 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33370589)
No one Grexits faster!
The results of the referendum is out. The Greeks say Oxi (no)
So ... no reforms, no austerity.
Happy days.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0MkHi3ZaG8xMCMV29yRWlvN-4_McYG-KmOBs_RIbhpn0UC34f7g)
They need the drachma, it is the only way to get imports under control.
You know it was coming.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 05, 2015, 05:10:42 PM
They need the drachma, it is the only way to get imports under control.
In a market economy. agreed
But as I said earlier in this thread. Considering their current government, I wouldn't be surprised if Tsipras solution is a 5 year plan and Drachmas in abundance.
For the sake of the ordinary Greek I hope I'm wrong, I really do.
If they hand out 10 drachma to the Euro, they will suddenly have lots of liquidity in the country. Do they have an economy? No. I suspect most are not willing to create anything of value. The economy will slowly grind to a halt, liquidity or not. With a hard cut onimports they will gain some self sufficiency. The big hit will be to consumer abundance.
The EU banks have probably had their Greek gamble payed out. They cannot lose. Crisis just make their potential winnings bigger.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 05, 2015, 06:17:40 PM
If they hand out 10 drachma to the Euro, they will suddenly have lots of liquidity in the country. Do they have an economy? No. I suspect most are not willing to create anything of value. The economy will slowly grind to a halt, liquidity or not. With a hard cut onimports they will gain some self sufficiency. The big hit will be to consumer abundance.
The EU banks have probably had their Greek gamble payed out. They cannot lose. Crisis just make their potential winnings bigger.
I'll bet you a dollar that the Greeks issue the Novus Drachma at 1:1 and it falls to 1:10 (and then worse).
The following editorial cartoon from the Ekathimerini news site sums up this silly referendum perfectly.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/198837/sketch/ekathimerini/cartoon/cartoon (http://www.ekathimerini.com/198837/sketch/ekathimerini/cartoon/cartoon)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ekathimerini.com%2Fresources%2F2015-07%2Fskitso_20150701-thumb-large.jpg&hash=46dc61107fbfacdbb5cd84ec55dedd4402d7a820)
Quote from: LongBlade on July 05, 2015, 07:01:10 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 05, 2015, 06:17:40 PM
If they hand out 10 drachma to the Euro, they will suddenly have lots of liquidity in the country. Do they have an economy? No. I suspect most are not willing to create anything of value. The economy will slowly grind to a halt, liquidity or not. With a hard cut onimports they will gain some self sufficiency. The big hit will be to consumer abundance.
The EU banks have probably had their Greek gamble payed out. They cannot lose. Crisis just make their potential winnings bigger.
I'll bet you a dollar that the Greeks issue the Novus Drachma at 1:1 and it falls to 1:10 (and then worse).
just for the reference. The Danish kr is 7.5kr to 1 euro. So a 1:10 ratio is way to optimistic.
Greek Banks are projected to run out of Euros today. It is highly doubtful if the European Central Bank will issue a line of credit with no credible negotiations or offer on the table. They would also have to physically ship Euros to Greek Banks.
The Greek Government "promised" that they would get a new agreement on much better terms from the EU by the end of the day on Tuesday. :idiot2:
The leaders of Germany and most of the other EU nations realize that if they bail out Greece that their voters will remove them from office in the next election. The EU will not come to the rescue of Greece at the price of the jobs of the elected officials.
What is probably going to happen is a complete Greek banking meltdown in the next 72 hours. The Greek government will issue IOUs (script). Then, all bank deposits and all Greek government debts will be redone on a 1 drachma to 1 Euro ratio. The Drachma will immediately devalue with financial press estimates of 1:25 to 1:50 - but it is a guess. Almost all imports to Greece dry up. [This is just an expansion of what Longblade already posted].
The key decision makers in Europe will not bail out Greece at the cost of their own jobs. The Greek Leadership has poisoned the well and the EU leadership does not trust them. What we are seeing is a debacle like the last Argentina meltdown when they unpegged the Peso from the Dollar - but a lot worse. It will probably also be worse than the meltdown in Iceland.
Quote from: airboy on July 06, 2015, 11:20:40 AM
What is probably going to happen is a complete Greek banking meltdown in the next 72 hours. The Greek government will issue IOUs (script). Then, all bank deposits and all Greek government debts will be redone on a 1 drachma to 1 Euro ratio.
On the plus side, Greek good are going to get cheap very fast for the rest of us.
If they can maintain political stability it will be a heyday to go on vacation there.
Figs, olive oil, feta. Are there any high value products made in Greece?
You are probably right on the 1:1 initial valuation. It strikes me that if they know there will be heavy devaluation, they would try 10:1 to head it off. People float a cost of goods in their head. After years of austerity, getting large amounts of cash could encourage spending. It's psychological. At 1:1they will try to hoard until they see it dropping in value, then they suddenly switch to dumping cash for goods. It's a whiplash effect. At 10 :1 out of the gate, with Euro prices in their head, they may be willing to spend. That might keep things stable longer.
Mmmm...cheap Feta
He he, I'm not too keen on feta either. Even if it's free, but how about cheap Uzo?
I love a good feta and Uzo.
Feta and Uzo?
Together?
Never tried that combo, but I guess the Uzo kind of takes the top of the creamy sensation
Quote from: LongBlade on July 06, 2015, 01:43:47 PM
On the plus side, Greek good are going to get cheap very fast for the rest of us.
If they can maintain political stability it will be a heyday to go on vacation there.
I don't know. We have a Med cruise starting in Athens in mid-September. We go to only one Greek stop after Athens that we care about - Crete. But if the idiot Greeks have waves of strikes at transit points or if they riot so much it becomes impossible to travel - we could lose the trip. My wife would be furious.
But hey, they got a congratulations from Fidel. All must be good for them now.
Quote from: airboy on July 06, 2015, 05:25:07 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 06, 2015, 01:43:47 PM
On the plus side, Greek good are going to get cheap very fast for the rest of us.
If they can maintain political stability it will be a heyday to go on vacation there.
I don't know. We have a Med cruise starting in Athens in mid-September. We go to only one Greek stop after Athens that we care about - Crete. But if the idiot Greeks have waves of strikes at transit points or if they riot so much it becomes impossible to travel - we could lose the trip. My wife would be furious.
That's the catch. If the Greeks don't cooperate then their biggest quick win will go right out the door.
The only thing important in the Greek crisis that happened today was:
"the European Central Bank decided Monday not to expand its life support for the Greek lenders, raising the prospect that they could be out of money by Wednesday absent an ECB reversal. That could force Greece off the euro..."
The Central Bank is not supplying additional Euros for Greek Banks, those who hold funds in Greek banks, etc...
The EU is also readying a plan for emergency food and medical supplies to Greece because, surprise surprise, the Greeks cannot feed themselves or produce most medicines. Without Euros, they can't import anything.
Everything else that happened today was irrelevant to the situation.
Looks like the Greeks have offered an appropriate gift to the ECB to try to resolve the conflict: an equine statue!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146 (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146)
Quote from: LongBlade on July 06, 2015, 01:43:47 PM
Quote from: airboy on July 06, 2015, 11:20:40 AM
What is probably going to happen is a complete Greek banking meltdown in the next 72 hours. The Greek government will issue IOUs (script). Then, all bank deposits and all Greek government debts will be redone on a 1 drachma to 1 Euro ratio.
On the plus side, Greek good are going to get cheap very fast for the rest of us.
If they can maintain political stability it will be a heyday to go on vacation there.
I've put off my wife's requests to go there for 4 years, you just gotta stick to your gut feeling sometimes ;). After talking with my dad's family there, I decided I'd wait a year or two after the dust has settled. My uncles in and around Athens said it was the first time since the 50's that they had seen empty shelves at a grocery store.
On the other side, one of my cousins works at a bar on Amorgos in the Aegean. Things are nicer the farther you are away from the capital (where the headaches are).
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on July 06, 2015, 10:03:47 PM
Looks like the Greeks have offered an appropriate gift to the ECB to try to resolve the conflict: an equine statue!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146 (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146)
:2funny:
Tonight is the 15th moment of truth. But this time it's for real, again.
Feel a bit ashamed for european inability to decide anything about everything.
European democracy for the moment seems to be : if Germany (or France) says no it is no.
I know it is all politics but in the end real people are suffering.
Quote from: Pete Dero on July 07, 2015, 07:07:04 AM
Tonight is the 15th moment of truth. But this time it's for real, again.
Feel a bit ashamed for european inability to decide anything about everything.
European democracy for the moment seems to be : if Germany (or France) says no it is no.
I know it is all politics but in the end real people are suffering.
There is more than politics. Greece has run up massive debt by importing everything. Now they want to walk from the debt as well as insist other countries keep giving them eveything.
First, they need to give priority to medicine imports.
Second they need to start giving back something real to the other countries.
Maybe the original intent was to modernize Greece to be an economic partner with the loans. Just importing everything is a crisis in the making. Every country needs to think about the significance of their balane of payments.
I meant that every political faction in Europe thinks their solution is the right one and the only good one.
For the moment is doesn't look good : the greeks showed a few hours ago in Brussels without the promised proposal, angrying all others.
Its a tough nut. I cant think of an honest way out for the Greeks either. IMO the best is freeze interest without letting debt be written off. Even that I doubt can be done, their debt is too big with little value worthy of export being created.
Does anyone have an idea?
A benevolent dictator comes to power putting everyone not working to work?
The heir to Constantinople would like to apply for that post! >:D
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 07, 2015, 01:06:56 PM
Its a tough nut. I cant think of an honest way out for the Greeks either. IMO the best is freeze interest without letting debt be written off. Even that I doubt can be done, their debt is too big with little value worthy of export being created.
Does anyone have an idea?
Nothing can be done now. The Greek government burned every bridge possible. The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.
Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system
In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.
The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off. But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole. If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.
As it is, Greece is going down.
Quote from: airboy on July 07, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
Nothing can be done now. The Greek government burned every bridge possible. The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.
Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system
The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off. But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole. If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.
As it is, Greece is going down.
Amen to that
One thing though and it has nothing to do with economics.
Quote from: airboy on July 07, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.
They could, but Greece already received .... is it 3 "rescue" packages from the ECB? While at the same time writing off billions of Euros of dept. Landing them on a debt of 323 billion Euros?
Meanwhile, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have seen hard times too, just like Greece.
But, unlike Greece, they implemented harsh and widely unpopular reforms and they are still not out of the woods.
So the question is -from a political point of view - how do you justify further write offs to Greece, while other countries are struggling to make ends meet?
What kind of message is that?
Quote from: Atilla60 on July 07, 2015, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: airboy on July 07, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
Nothing can be done now. The Greek government burned every bridge possible. The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.
Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system
The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off. But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole. If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.
As it is, Greece is going down.
Amen to that
One thing though and it has nothing to do with economics.
Quote from: airboy on July 07, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.
They could, but Greece already received .... is it 3 "rescue" packages from the ECB? While at the same time writing off billions of Euros of dept. Landing them on a debt of 323 billion Euros?
Meanwhile, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have seen hard times too, just like Greece.
But, unlike Greece, they implemented harsh and widely unpopular reforms and they are still not out of the woods.
So the question is -from a political point of view - how do you justify further write offs to Greece, while other countries are struggling to make ends meet?
What kind of message is that?
You forgot to mention the baltic states you rascist swine :tickedoff:
Quote from: jejo68 on July 08, 2015, 06:34:31 PM
Quote from: Atilla60 on July 07, 2015, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: airboy on July 07, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
Nothing can be done now. The Greek government burned every bridge possible. The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.
Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system
The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off. But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole. If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.
As it is, Greece is going down.
Amen to that
One thing though and it has nothing to do with economics.
Quote from: airboy on July 07, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.
They could, but Greece already received .... is it 3 "rescue" packages from the ECB? While at the same time writing off billions of Euros of dept. Landing them on a debt of 323 billion Euros?
Meanwhile, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have seen hard times too, just like Greece.
But, unlike Greece, they implemented harsh and widely unpopular reforms and they are still not out of the woods.
So the question is -from a political point of view - how do you justify further write offs to Greece, while other countries are struggling to make ends meet?
What kind of message is that?
You forgot to mention the baltic states you rascist swine :tickedoff:
Hey! Don't you have a PBEM-turn to tend to?
I'm still waiting :coolsmiley:
Well looks like the Greeks will get to continue to live on the backs of whatever remains of the European working and tax paying class.
Germany is at last bowing to pressure as a chorus of countries and key institutions demand debt relief for Greece, a shift that could break the five-month stalemate and avert a potentially disastrous rupture of monetary union at this Sunday's last-ditch summit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11730086/Greek-deal-in-sight-as-Germany-bows-to-huge-global-pressure-for-debt-relief.html
That must have been a painful decision for Angela. Perhaps she is thinking ahead, wanting a secure Balkan front in case the Leopards have to roll East.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 09, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
That must have been a painful decision for Angela. Perhaps she is thinking ahead, wanting a secure Balkan front in case the Leopard has to roll East.
ftfy
Quote from: mirth on July 09, 2015, 09:20:52 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 09, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
That must have been a painful decision for Angela. Perhaps she is thinking ahead, wanting a secure Balkan front in case all the Polish Leopards have to roll East.
ftfy
fism
More like fear Russia asks to put a naval base in the islands in exchange for a bail out, cutting off Turkey from the rest of nato.
It still has to make it through a lot of politicians to pass. Those politicials have to weigh the monetary fallout vs the humanitarian fallout. If they start counting bodies from lack of medicine, that will overpower financial considerations. There are ways of dealing with that other that more money.
Greece should never have been encouraged into the Eurozone. Staying in has more to do with cozying up to the political agenda of the Brussels bureaucrats, who want a truly federal Europe, and a common currency is part of that. Greece should go back to the Drachma, but remain within the EU if it wishes.
If the EU wants to stop wasting tax credits on Greece as a persistent loss, they need to either amortise the debt, or keep the paper debt but freeze interest payments, then make a one-off investment grant to kickstart the Greek economy (overseen by the ECB and IMF to avoid Greek corruption - although EU Institutional corruption is endemic, so I wonder how effective that would be?). I think that has to be the last chance saloon for Greece.
It's a bitter pill for euro tax payers, but probably the most realistic plan to give them a chance to stand on their own feet in the foreseeable future. As things presently stand Greece is a continuing haemorrhage of euro tax credits and is unsustainable in the long term. If they don't get a bailout or a recovery plan they will just go bankrupt, and create a whole new can of worms for the EU.
Interesting Greek history of early 1900s
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/opinion/greek-defiance-has-a-history.html?ref=world&_r=0&referrer=
"Defeat began with a monkey bite." Doesn't it always?
Great article...I know so little modern Greek history but that article does show a lot of Greek national character. Tough and stubborn.
Have to respect that, to an extent.
What a remarkable bit of smoke and mirrors
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/world/europe/greece-debt-plan.html
The proffered deal is much worse financially than the one the Greeks voted down. It still requires a lot more money to be poured down the Greek rat hole. One of the biggest things yet to be spelled out is how the banks would be recapitalized.
What the financial press is reporting is that deposits over specific minimums would be "liquidated" at a relatively high rate. This is what happened in Cyprus but with a critical distinction. Cyprus was holding a lot of Russian gangster money at high interest rates and much of those deposits were wiped out. It has not been suggested that ordinary Greek deposits were anything other than people who saved money who were unwise enough not to make the deposits in other countries. This would tend to eliminate the worst of the kickback/graft artists from Greece - who would hold their largest deposits outside the country.
Quote from: airboy on July 13, 2015, 07:37:05 PM
The proffered deal is much worse financially than the one the Greeks voted down. It still requires a lot more money to be poured down the Greek rat hole. One of the biggest things yet to be spelled out is how the banks would be recapitalized.
What the financial press is reporting is that deposits over specific minimums would be "liquidated" at a relatively high rate. This is what happened in Cyprus but with a critical distinction. Cyprus was holding a lot of Russian gangster money at high interest rates and much of those deposits were wiped out. It has not been suggested that ordinary Greek deposits were anything other than people who saved money who were unwise enough not to make the deposits in other countries. This would tend to eliminate the worst of the kickback/graft artists from Greece - who would hold their largest deposits outside the country.
Actually many rich Greeks bought property (real estate) in London a few years back to keep their wealth untouchable by the Greek authorities, to the extent it created a price bubble in the South-East on the UK.
The Greek PM has resigned. Will be interesting too see where this goes now.
He hasn't ruled out standing for re-election, so it may just be a political game he's playing.
So, with the tidal wave of refugees coming from the Middle East and Africa, they may not have to worry about their debt much longer.
Quote from: OJsDad on September 05, 2015, 09:26:42 AM
So, with the tidal wave of refugees coming from the Middle East and Africa, they may not have to worry about their debt much longer.
Well, the term "refugees" is used very loosely by the media. Many people as "refugees" ceased to qualify for that term, as no longer in danger, or having their safety being threatened, as soon as they arrived in Turkey. In reality the "refugees" illegally in Europe are actually colonists/settlers seeking a better life in Europe. Historically, the likelihood of permanent settlement, as opposed to seeking refuge for the duration of conflict in their home country tends to be high, hence the term colonists/settlers. A sizeable proportion of "refugees" are economic migrants, a smaller proportion are criminals profiting from people trafficking, and there's probably not a few jihadi terrorists masquerading as "refugees". We just don't really know the facts given the numbers and unwillingness of many "refugees" to register themselves.
I suspect Germany has not considered the long term effects of mass migration from an alien culture, and will experience the same pains of lack of integration, financial and social tension as experienced by Sweden and France who have previously been very generous with open door migration policies.
The whole issue has been manipulated by the media on emotional grounds without enough thought being applied to social integration, the impact on domestic population concerns, and opportunities, as well as the financial costs of maintaining such a policy when their own poor are suffering from the effects of government cuts. Certainly in the UK the burden of cuts have fallen on the poorest in society, as the government is unwilling to tax the very rich, so it's hard to see how they will afford to take many "refugees". I suspect there will be a lot of "discussions" in Germany when the honeymoon period of being "nice" Germany is over, and reality hits.
I'd add that undoubtedly some "refugees" have tragic stories, but European governments need to think through the consequences of open door migration.
Quote from: Boggit on September 07, 2015, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on September 05, 2015, 09:26:42 AM
So, with the tidal wave of refugees coming from the Middle East and Africa, they may not have to worry about their debt much longer.
Well, the term "refugees" is used very loosely by the media. Many people as "refugees" ceased to qualify for that term, as no longer in danger, or having their safety being threatened, as soon as they arrived in Turkey. In reality the "refugees" illegally in Europe are actually colonists/settlers seeking a better life in Europe. Historically, the likelihood of permanent settlement, as opposed to seeking refuge for the duration of conflict in their home country tends to be high, hence the term colonists/settlers. A sizeable proportion of "refugees" are economic migrants, a smaller proportion are criminals profiting from people trafficking, and there's probably not a few jihadi terrorists masquerading as "refugees". We just don't really know the facts given the numbers and unwillingness of many "refugees" to register themselves.
I suspect Germany has not considered the long term effects of mass migration from an alien culture, and will experience the same pains of lack of integration, financial and social tension as experienced by Sweden and France who have previously been very generous with open door migration policies.
The whole issue has been manipulated by the media on emotional grounds without enough thought being applied to social integration, the impact on domestic population concerns, and opportunities, as well as the financial costs of maintaining such a policy when their own poor are suffering from the effects of government cuts. Certainly in the UK the burden of cuts have fallen on the poorest in society, as the government is unwilling to tax the very rich, so it's hard to see how they will afford to take many "refugees". I suspect there will be a lot of "discussions" in Germany when the honeymoon period of being "nice" Germany is over, and reality hits.
I'd add that undoubtedly some "refugees" have tragic stories, but European governments need to think through the consequences of open door migration.
None of the people going to germany, are refugees. They came from another secure country so they are illegal immigrants.
But hey if the german people wants to commit suicide its their problem. Except ofcourse that as being a dane, we now have two countries on or borders that choose the same path, so I guess we will have to blow the bridges to sweden and build big walls against germany in the near future.
Iraq and Syria are far from secure countries.
Quote from: Gusington on September 08, 2015, 12:31:34 PM
Iraq and Syria are far from secure countries.
Gus, I think Jejo68 is referring to the colonists coming from Turkey.
You are quite right that Syria, and Iraq are unsafe countries, but when they reach Turkey then for the most part the colonists are safe from the threat of immediate harm, which is key to the definition of "refugee". There is evidence that might not apply in the case of Kurds, Syrian/Iraqi Christians and Jews. It is the latter group of people who can make a case for remaining with a refugee status on reaching Turkey.
The overwhelming route for migration is via Turkey/Libya, so Jejo68 in general is right about the legal status of "refugees" in Europe (at least via Turkey) no longer being refugees, but economic settlers. Many people are also coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan, China, Bangladesh, Sub Saharan Africa, and many other countries that you probably would not describe as ones meriting refugee status (although some individuals might me able to put forward a decent argument).
Personally, I don't think you can blame the economic settlers for wanting a better life on a human level. I have every sympathy with them on that score, but sympathy isn't enough to justify immigration policy decisions, which must take into account a huge range of factors, including housing, schooling, healthcare, finance, socialisation into mainstream society, the effect on the economy, whether the economy has sufficient jobs for the domestic population etc. We are talking about the tip of an iceberg that is melting fast, and the ordinary people of many European countries don't want to become ethnic minorities within a few generations within their own countries. I guess that border control in the Southern US draws some comparison, save for the fact that Europe is facing massively higher numbers of illegal immigrants, which historically demonstrate (see Sweden/France) much less chance to socially integrate than you might see with Latino migration in the US. Sweden is arguably the rape/crime capital of Europe (with France not far behind), with prison populations disproportionately coming from immigrant backgrounds. Both Sweden and France have de facto ghetto areas with reportedly large migrant populations who refuse to integrate into mainstream French, or Swedish society - and who surprise, surprise end up sending a disproportionally large percentage of foreign fighter to the IS and similar.
@Gus. Just in case this is what you are thinking - be wary of drawing parallels with Jewish refugees escaping from the Nazis. It is not the same scenario. In the UK certainly, Jews are part of mainstream society, and social integration doesn't appear to have been a huge issue after the initial pain of adjusting to life in the UK. The French experience before the Nazis took over seems similar. Although Jewish migration in the 30's and 40's was high it wasn't going to risk marginalising the ethnicity and stability of host countries. The present crisis is an entirely different ball game.
@jejo68 I don't think the German people want to commit suicide. A lot of ordinary Germans are genuinely very concerned at developments, but are marginalised by the media who are pushing their own agenda. When they try to discuss the issue rationally they are labelled racist or Nazi's as both labels are convenient devices to avoid discussion by demonising people with different views so that no one listens to them. Ask Mike_Ger who has been a victim of this type of censorship simply for asking people to consider the wider issues.
Frau Merkel, has promised to take in 800,000 colonists this year, and Sigmar Gabriel says 500,000 a year over the next few years. These are not for the duration of the conflict, but permanent settlement, and will completely change the social structure in Germany. At that rate, within a few generations, given that the vast majority of migration is Islamic, the native German population will be, or will be close to being a minority in their own country, and there is ample evidence that non-muslims living in an overwhelmingly muslim country can expect persecution on the basis of current, and historical precedent. Kindness to refugees is in general a good thing, but migration policy must be managed and thought out properly.
Apart from the media and the political classes few people are happy with the wider picture, although some big industry lobby groups are probably pleased at the prospect of being able to exploit a low wage expectation of mass migration to their own advantage. I don't suppose many Germans citizens fancy being pushed out of their jobs by cheap settler labour.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3226160/Germany-ups-ante-political-posturing-migrant-crisis-saying-500-000-refugees-YEAR-years-deal-unprecedented-influx.html
^Jejo said 'none of the people going to Germany are refugees' - which is false. Some are.
Exactly why Germany feels the need to invite in 800k, well, I don't know. It almost seems as if the German government wants to set up a social crisis.
Quote from: Gusington on September 08, 2015, 08:35:25 PM
^Jejo said 'none of the people going to Germany are refugees' - which is false. Some are.
Exactly why Germany feels the need to invite in 800k, well, I don't know. It almost seems as if the German government wants to set up a social crisis.
First of you cant fly to germany from a non European country without a visa, so that route is closed. And there are no direct ferries going from Afrika or middle east to Germany either.
Third everyone who enters Germany has crossed atleast 2 secure countries before arriving there so how can they be refugees ?
The fact is that what you see today is a bunch of people who are shopping around to find the country that wants to provide them the most in terms of ecomomic security and or jobs. Dont take my word for it, just go listen to the interviews being conducted there as to why they choose the countries they choose.
Do you think im being insensitive, well maybe I am but I dont want no god damn civil war in my backyard which is what is coming. The only question is where its going to start. Up until recently I would have guessed France or Sweden, but now with Germany on the road to commit suicide it might happen there first.
Anecdotally, that tragic photo of the toddler washed up on the beach...the dad's story is unraveling.
Read an article yesterday that there is evidence the family had been in Turkey for ~three years. The child (or one of them, he had a brother and a mom who also were lost on the journey) who needed dental work. Dental work is free/cheap in the EU so he told them to move from Turkey to somewhere in the EU for treatment. Tragedy followed.
I'm sure there are some real refugees who need help. How many? That's a different question.
Quote from: Gusington on September 08, 2015, 08:35:25 PM
^Jejo said 'none of the people going to Germany are refugees' - which is false. Some are.
You're right Gus, but in fairness to Jejo, the overwhelming majority coming from Turkey do not qualify for that status any more. LB's comment about the family that lost their child says a lot about the real truth, which is that most are economic settlers/colonists. It has also been suggested that about 70% of the colonists coming via Europe are single young men, and not the families with cute kids that the media focus on.
Quote from: Gusington on September 08, 2015, 08:35:25 PM
Exactly why Germany feels the need to invite in 800k, well, I don't know. It almost seems as if the German government wants to set up a social crisis.
A very good question. A lot of ordinary people in Europe, not least in Germany are trying to figure that one out. The experience of mass migration in Sweden and France from colonists that won't integrate I would think would give any rational person pause for thought.
The problem is that the media has made the whole issue an emotive one, and are not considering the long term social, and economic impacts for their own populations. There is a big issue over the boy sadly drowned in the Aegean, but hundreds of illegals have drowned just off the Libyan coast and no one has really batted an eye until this photoshot. Why is this one boy so special, that governments are bowing to the media?
I don't oppose managed, reasonable, immigration by people who do it lawfully, and I think there are exceptions even when it is done unlawfully on a case by case basis, but this isn't generally the scenario faced by mass migration in Europe. Here you have people demanding citizenship, irrespective of what they do, so long as they get what they want. There is a huge amount of crime associated with the illegals, which is inconvenient to the media agenda as "off message". France and Sweden have huge problems stemming from their own migration policies. A friend of mine in Italy, who says frankly he's sympathetic to the migrants as they are very poor, but also comments that they have filled the detention centres and prisons. He went on to say that around 15% of Italians are pushing for the army to hunt down illegals and shoot them, though clearly that's not about to happen anytime soon. He's very uncomfortable about that, but doesn't see the Italian government being able to control the situation either. The extreme right are being gifted this issue by governments across Europe that are caving into the media. The one government that has tried to register the colonists is Hungary, and look at all the flak they get for trying to make the illegals observe the law and cooperate with their authorities. It hasn't happened yet in the UK, but I am concerned that normal, rational, not particularly politically motivated people across Europe are getting very worried.
Of course the political élites, and the wealthy live in another world to ordinary citizens. Ordinary citizens are lacking the means to have their concerns heard, hence their fears are ignored, and they are getting angry. Is it the fault of the colonists who can see more opportunity in Europe? No. It is the fault of the governments failures to stand up and take control of the situation (Hungary is an exception), rather than just kowtow to the media.
Not only that boggit. The entire concept of the Schengen is that the borders are open internally but closed externally. And look at what happened to Hungary when they tried to actually close the border.
Also as to the citizen being worried. I have talked to alot of ordinary citizens who are getting more and more upset, and im afraid that its just a matter of time before the entire mess explode.
Quote from: jejo68 on September 09, 2015, 02:04:46 PM
Not only that boggit. The entire concept of the Schengen is that the borders are open internally but closed externally. And look at what happened to Hungary when they tried to actually close the border.
Exactly!
The floodgates are open and there doesn't appear to be any will within EU governments to stop it. Even if there was the will, it would result in the deaths of 10s of 1000s.
Honestly I have not seen talk of civil war anywhere but here. But coverage of this here in the US is limited to crocodile tears.
Quote from: Gusington on September 09, 2015, 02:39:29 PM
The floodgates are open and there doesn't appear to be any will within EU governments to stop it. Even if there was the will, it would result in the deaths of 10s of 1000s.
Honestly I have not seen talk of civil war anywhere but here. But coverage of this here in the US is limited to crocodile tears.
It's a possible scenario. I know Sauron thinks civil war is a distinct possibility in France. When you consider that 25% of French voters voted for the Front National (the French far right), you realise that the French government is losing the issue to the far right. I don't suppose for a moment that so many French people actually support the full breadth of far right policies. I think it is evidence that they feel more 'moderate' parties don't take their concerns seriously, preferring to write them off, or silence them as "racists", or "Nazi's" rather than address their genuine concerns about immigration and integration.
Long term it's stupid of 'moderate' governments not to engage seriously on the issues, and concerns of many of their citizens, as it plays directly into the hands of the far right who will be the only ones taking ownership of the issue in the minds of many ordinary people. And you can be sure this fear will be exploited for their own ends.... see the rise of Golden Dawn in Greece, for example.
If this goes badly wrong in Europe, it will be bad for everyone. Don't think for a minute that it is in the interest of the US to just stand by and let it happen.
Boggit, everything you said in your last post can be applied to the US. Those here that oppose illegal immigration are labeled racists and are tried to be minimalized. All the while people at the bottom end of the economy wonder why they cannot get ahead. Heck, our current leadership refuses to even deport those here illegally that are committing other crimes and are caught by local law enforcement. Wait until that starts happening in Europe.
I will say this though. Our illegals are less likely to commit terrorist activities than those flooding Europe. And a lot, if not most, seem to be here for economic reasons and are willing to try and help themselves.
Quote from: OJsDad on September 09, 2015, 05:39:36 PM
Boggit, everything you said in your last post can be applied to the US. Those here that oppose illegal immigration are labeled racists and are tried to be minimalized. All the while people at the bottom end of the economy wonder why they cannot get ahead. Heck, our current leadership refuses to even deport those here illegally that are committing other crimes and are caught by local law enforcement. Wait until that starts happening in Europe.
I will say this though. Our illegals are less likely to commit terrorist activities than those flooding Europe. And a lot, if not most, seem to be here for economic reasons and are willing to try and help themselves.
Its happening here already. You have criminal immigrants that are not being deported even though they have every right to do so under the law.
Its even so fucked up that people seeking asylum can commit crimes and it will not affect their application. Just a couple month ago a guy tried to rape a 10 yo and he is still here and it will not have any affect on if he gets asylum or not when he is released from jail.
Quote from: Boggit on September 09, 2015, 03:24:47 PM
Quote from: Gusington on September 09, 2015, 02:39:29 PM
The floodgates are open and there doesn't appear to be any will within EU governments to stop it. Even if there was the will, it would result in the deaths of 10s of 1000s.
Honestly I have not seen talk of civil war anywhere but here. But coverage of this here in the US is limited to crocodile tears.
It's a possible scenario. I know Sauron thinks civil war is a distinct possibility in France. When you consider that 25% of French voters voted for the Front National (the French far right), you realise that the French government is losing the issue to the far right. I don't suppose for a moment that so many French people actually support the full breadth of far right policies. I think it is evidence that they feel more 'moderate' parties don't take their concerns seriously, preferring to write them off, or silence them as "racists", or "Nazi's" rather than address their genuine concerns about immigration and integration.
Long term it's stupid of 'moderate' governments not to engage seriously on the issues, and concerns of many of their citizens, as it plays directly into the hands of the far right who will be the only ones taking ownership of the issue in the minds of many ordinary people. And you can be sure this fear will be exploited for their own ends.... see the rise of Golden Dawn in Greece, for example.
If this goes badly wrong in Europe, it will be bad for everyone. Don't think for a minute that it is in the interest of the US to just stand by and let it happen.
How can it not go badly wrong? Germany is saying they will take 800,000 this year? How the hell do you assemble even shantytown barracks for 1/2 a million people with winter hitting in a few months? Through out Europe there will be a million in tents through winter? At the same time AQ's leader, al fucktard is calling young males to attack?
Just the news that so many are being taken will drive many times more to start their trek. Syria was 36 million. What if 1/4 start to move? The same for Libya, etc.
This is a biblical level disaster in the making. Except a few thousand people was a big city in biblical times.
Greece said they would let a tidal wave of people over the border if they did not get their financing. It seems they are carrying out their threat.
I'm not saying that Greece isn't causing some issues, but I have to wonder how much control they really have.
Any guesses on how many beds of pneumonia, etc will start to be taken in all EU hospitals? :uglystupid2:
You think it is getting ugly now, wait till February.
Every country has to govern its borders, that is a basic proof that they are the real government.
The solution is taking EU government to Syria and Libya, not bringing the Middle East mess to the EU. You need something like a 20 mile strip along the Turkey border run by NATO, secured by NATO. Build new EU control there.
I don't see any way to dump this load of people into Europe with no services for them.
Biggs, the problem is that European Liberals haven't given a damn in 20 years. Longer than that, but it's just in the last 20 years of so that they have gained enough influence to dictate policy. If they really cared, they would have been dealing with this for the last couple of years.
Maybe they hoped that if they stayed out of it, the problem would never come knocking. Well, the problem has broken down the down, and the solution seems to be to hide upstairs. And if the US continues with the same leadership that we've had, then it will not get any better.
How much longer before we start to see a stream of Europeans immigrating to the US and Canada trying to escape the religious wars in Europe.
I'm with you OJD, this is a good example of Obama's hands off foreign policy not necessarily resulting in better outcomes than more active policies. It really has been festering too long.
Meanwhile Saudi Arabia which has a massive air-conditioned tent city outside Mecca has taken..... zero?
Quote from: Sir Slash on September 13, 2015, 10:19:39 PM
Meanwhile Saudi Arabia which has a massive air-conditioned tent city outside Mecca has taken..... zero?
Don't think they want to step into Saudi Arabia in the first place.
Quote from: Sir Slash on September 13, 2015, 10:19:39 PM
Meanwhile Saudi Arabia which has a massive air-conditioned tent city outside Mecca has taken..... zero?
Saudi arabia is never going to take in any refugees. That would open the flood they will never be able to contain. Dont forget that 80+% of the workforce comes from countries such as Bangladesh etc, and if they start accepting regugees they risk all these people will also apply.
Saudi Arabia is actually claiming that it has accepted it's share of Syrians. Thing is, it's counting those who are there on work visas as it's share.
Quote from: Staggerwing on September 14, 2015, 05:48:24 AM
Saudi Arabia is actually claiming that it has accepted it's share of Syrians. Thing is, it's counting those who are there on work visas as it's share.
exactly, that way they dont have to give them refugee status and can throw them out at their own convenience
Sounds like Europe and the U.S. should take a page from their playbook.
Quote from: OJsDad on September 14, 2015, 10:37:26 AM
Sounds like Europe and the U.S. should take a page from their playbook.
Dont think any country minds immigrants that can contribute to the society and actually has a job at hand, but what we see now is a flood of people who for the most part will never be integrated, and never get a job. Here in Denmark 70+% of those seeking refugee 3 or more years ago hasnt been able to find a job. Thats a huge problem, since our government insist on giving them welfare and housing.
Just a friendly suggestion, maybe to create a new thread (as this is kind of going off the original topic).
Anyhow, the centrists/conservative Nea Demokratia (New Democracy) are head to head with the radical leftist Syriza in the latest polls.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/greece-s-conservatives-ed/2129120.html (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/greece-s-conservatives-ed/2129120.html)
agree jejo.
I partially agree Endfire. But I think the refugee issue plays into this issue also
http://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/greek-leftist-tsipras-returns-in-unexpectedly-decisive-vote-win#xtor=CS1-10
^^ THREE MORE MONTHS! THREE MORE MONTHS! :))