A guy went to an AME church in Charleston, SC during a Wednesday night prayer service and murdered 9 people.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/17/white-gunman-sought-in-shooting-at-historic-charleston-african-ame-church/
May God have mercy on their souls.
It's terrible. I just glanced at the headlines - didn't want to read the news.
They've ID'ed him as a 21-yo dude from Columbia. No idea why he drove 90 minutes to go shoot people, or if he was already in Charleston for something else.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 18, 2015, 09:28:41 AM
They've ID'ed him as a 21-yo dude from Columbia. No idea why he drove 90 minutes to go shoot people, or if he was already in Charleston for something else.
The pastor of the church was Senator Clementa Pinckney who was one of the victims. I suspect he was the shooter's target and the other dead were peripheral damage. That would explain why the shooter traveled to Charleston.
I saw the headline earlier, but haven't been able to make myself read any of the details; too horrible. My thoughts & prayers for the victims and their families.
Quote from: Greybriar on June 18, 2015, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 18, 2015, 09:28:41 AM
They've ID'ed him as a 21-yo dude from Columbia. No idea why he drove 90 minutes to go shoot people, or if he was already in Charleston for something else.
The pastor of the church was Senator Clementa Pinckney who was one of the victims. I suspect he was the shooter's target and the other dead were peripheral damage. That would explain why the shooter traveled to Charleston.
Columbia south america, not some city? Wasnt a drug kingpin recenty taken out in Columbia?
...senseless. May they rest in peace.
Just saw they caught the little SOB!
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/18/police-respond-to-shooting-at-sc-church/
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on June 18, 2015, 10:29:55 AMColumbia south america, not some city? Wasnt a drug kingpin recenty taken out in Columbia?
Col
ombia = South American country
Col
umbia = Capital of South Carolina, home of USC, 90 minutes from Charleston down I-26
other Col
umbia = Home of University of Missouri
...this act of senseless violence really went through the Roof
if there is now personal connection found to the pastor and it was a 'race' hate crime i don't get why that manic didn't drove over to the appropriate low life gang neighborhood and looked for pimps, dealers, gang leaders and such. :idiot2:
Disgusting. I hope the POS fries.
I'm not against him frying, but I'd want to make sure he was competent to try first. The randomness sounds more like a mental disorder.
It doesn't sound random at all. Everything I've read so far, indicates a planned attack.
And anyone who walks into a church prayer meeting and slaughters 9 people, deserves to fry. Mentally competent or not, racially motivated or not.
Quote from: mirth on June 18, 2015, 02:52:35 PM
And anyone who walks into a church prayer meeting, waits an hour and then slaughters 9 people, deserves to fry. Mentally competent or not, racially motivated or not.
He sat there for at least an hour contemplating what he was about to do...premeditated to the nth degree.
Quote from: steve58 on June 18, 2015, 03:17:43 PM
Quote from: mirth on June 18, 2015, 02:52:35 PM
And anyone who walks into a church prayer meeting, waits an hour and then slaughters 9 people, deserves to fry. Mentally competent or not, racially motivated or not.
He sat there for at least an hour contemplating what he was about to do...premeditated to the nth degree.
Yeah. It's hard to imagine that kind of monster. Sitting with his victims for an hour before murdering them. Give him a speedy trial and fry him when the guilty verdict comes back.
Does South Carolina fry, or inject?
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 19, 2015, 07:32:53 AM
Does South Carolina fry, or inject?
Dunno, don't really care as long as that vermin gets put down.
His own uncle is ready to push the button when the time comes
https://gma.yahoo.com/whats-next-sc-church-shooting-suspect-dylann-roof-020206980--abc-news-topstories.html# (https://gma.yahoo.com/whats-next-sc-church-shooting-suspect-dylann-roof-020206980--abc-news-topstories.html#)
Quote"I'll be the one to push the button. If he's found guilty, I'll be the one to push the button myself," Cowles said. "If what I am hearing is true, he needs to pay for it."
I think it should be done firing-squad style, so survivors and victims families can have a whack at him too.
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 19, 2015, 07:56:49 AM
I think it should be done firing-squad style, so survivors and victims families can have a whack at him too.
I'd be good with that.
Notice how these delusional murderers' always look like mad crazy-eyed nutjobs in their older photos? This one is no different.
I'm sure the media goes out of it's way to find the most crazy looking pics, but yeah this cretin looks exceptionally nutty.
Quote from: mirth on June 19, 2015, 09:16:12 AM
I'm sure the media goes out of it's way to find the most crazy looking pics, but yeah this cretin looks exceptionally nutty.
...completed with his out of this epoche Maid of Orlean haircut ...and stare:o
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-reel-mccoy.com%2Fmovies%2F1999%2Fimages%2Fmessenger_milla_eyes.jpg&hash=40b2d9a5dfb75accf6d38d5473dcc9eecacd8957) (the Milla Jovovich flick)
...when i first saw his meda released facbook pic, that was what first came to my mind
Insane people can meticulously premeditate, too. He thinks black people are trying to take over the world, then goes there of all places to act on that?? That sounds like paranoia with an incidental fixation which developed when he noticed her during a fit.
Granted, we shoot incurably rabid dogs. But I think we ought to have a different attitude in doing so.
(Also granted, even if he has medications which allow him to be more rational, he might still be the kind of person who would hate black people so much he wants to kill them, and who would choose a target he's not only sure won't effectively fight back but whose murder would hurt other people the most. People can be both insane and evil at the same time. In which case their insanity shouldn't excuse them.)
I'm not interested in the mental condition of this piece of excrement. I'm not interested in seeing him get "treatment". Give him a fair trial and when he's found guilty of murdering those people, put him down.
We need to stop making excuses for cold-blooded murderers. There is evil in the world and it needs to be dealt with definitively. Don't try to figure it out, understand it, treat it etc. Deal with it. When someone crosses the line of civil behavior this extremely, this heinously, he's forfeited his right to continue living.
Quote from: mirth on June 19, 2015, 12:23:18 PM
I'm not interested in the mental condition of this piece of excrement. I'm not interested in seeing him get "treatment". Give him a fair trial and when he's found guilty of murdering those people, put him down.
We need to stop making excuses for cold-blooded murderers. There is evil in the world and it needs to be dealt with definitively. Don't try to figure it out, understand it, treat it etc. Deal with it. When someone crosses the line of civil behavior this extremely, this heinously, he's forfeited his right to continue living.
This. >:(
Quote from: mirth on June 19, 2015, 12:23:18 PM
I'm not interested in the mental condition of this piece of excrement. I'm not interested in seeing him get "treatment". Give him a fair trial and when he's found guilty of murdering those people, put him down.
We need to stop making excuses for cold-blooded murderers. There is evil in the world and it needs to be dealt with definitively. Don't try to figure it out, understand it, treat it etc. Deal with it. When someone crosses the line of civil behavior this extremely, this heinously, he's forfeited his right to continue living.
Yeah, I tend to agree. I do believe that we've de-funded help for the mentally ill to such a degree that cops are too often trying to deal with them (which is completely messed up and unfair to everyone involved), but this seems like a case of absolute pre-meditated murder.
Agreed on the defunding of mental health care and police having to deal with the consequences. However, nothing I've read so far about this shooting makes me believe this was a lost soul who didn't get the help he should/could have.
Quote from: mirth on June 19, 2015, 03:35:57 PM
Agreed on the defunding of mental health care and police having to deal with the consequences. However, nothing I've read so far about this shooting makes me believe this was a lost soul who didn't get the help he should/could have.
I read an article speculating it could have been related to the use of SSRI's - Zoloft et al, which apparently have a demonstrated record of outbreaks of violence.
In addition he was apparently a racist. Whatever the cause, this looks more like murder than a guy who slipped through the system.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 19, 2015, 12:14:36 PM
Insane people can meticulously premeditate, too. He thinks black people are trying to take over the world, then goes there of all places to act on that?? That sounds like paranoia with an incidental fixation which developed when he noticed her during a fit.
His grand black conspiracy theory very much reminds me of Charlie Manson's.
Whether you kill him or put him away for the rest of his life won't make much difference to the loss of the families, Either way he's out of circulation, and they carry their loss regardless.
The big question for me is what do we take away from it, to minimise the likelihood of it happening again? For sure it will, based on past events. Race relations, the ease of gun ownership, and the death penalty are all issues that touch on this. Arguably the death penalty was no disincentive to the murders, and the fact that states using the death penalty still have murders regardless. Roof was able to get his firearm from his father as a gift, which suggests no psychological assessment was ever carried out to see if he was a fit person to be allowed such a weapon. The race issue is perhaps harder to square given the history of the area, but even so, is perhaps more of an issue for education?
Quote from: LongBlade on June 19, 2015, 03:40:41 PM
Quote from: mirth on June 19, 2015, 03:35:57 PM
Agreed on the defunding of mental health care and police having to deal with the consequences. However, nothing I've read so far about this shooting makes me believe this was a lost soul who didn't get the help he should/could have.
I read an article speculating it could have been related to the use of SSRI's - Zoloft et al, which apparently have a demonstrated record of outbreaks of violence.
In addition he was apparently a racist. Whatever the cause, this looks more like murder than a guy who slipped through the system.
The main proponents of increased homocidality and suicidality with Anti-Depressant medication are Dr. David Healy,
Let Them Eat Prozac and Dr. Peter Breggin,
Toxic Psychiatry There may be a link to these side effects and the inability to metabolize the drugs in certain individuals with the varied genetics of liver enzymes (Cytochrome P450s, specifically CYP 2D6 for most pharmaceuticals).
I don't think he would be using these drugs though. He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/
I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.
Mirth and Nef: I did say that someone can be both insane and evil. ::)
I just wanted to make sure this wasn't a case of a relatively recent behavior change brought about by a brain tumor or being off his medications or something of that sort. If it isn't, then fine, firing squad sounds fine to me!
I also admire the church members for choosing to forgive him. That's their prerogative, and I agree with the thought. Doesn't preclude the death penalty, even if he was penitent afterward, which as far as I can tell he isn't.
(Note by the way that as a Christian universalist I fully expect God to save him from his sins sooner or later, and it would be better sooner than later. In that vein, sending him on to a judge that is guaranteed to get his attention better would be sooner rather than later. ;) I mention this because given my beliefs I ought to be careful I'm not too quick on the death penalty draw, so to speak, since I'm thus inclined to let the death penalty do the hard work.)
Jason, I get what your saying and the kid deserves a fair trial. If it came out that he had a tumor that made him nuts, I would hope the jury hears that evidence and weighs it accordingly. Given the facts as they currently stand, and until contrary evidence is provided, I am comfortable saying his actions warrant death.
I fully respect the church members offering him forgiveness, personally I might be able to find it in myself to forgive him (honestly haven't given it much thought. On a personal level, I don't need to condemn or forgive him.Tthe universe takes care of that stuff -you reap what you sow).
Forgiveness aside, as a society there is an obligation to deal with heinous criminal acts and as a society we have determined that forfeiture of life is an appropriate penalty.
Quote from: Uberhaus on June 21, 2015, 08:17:29 AM
I don't think he would be using these drugs though. He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/)
I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.
You need to learn a lot more about autism. Your statement about people with ASD being responsible for "a number of murders recently" is factually incorrect and unsupportable.
Quote from: panzerde on June 24, 2015, 07:59:20 PM
Quote from: Uberhaus on June 21, 2015, 08:17:29 AM
I don't think he would be using these drugs though. He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/)
I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.
You need to learn a lot more about autism. Your statement about people with ASD being responsible for "a number of murders recently" is factually incorrect and unsupportable.
I'll add that not only is the percentage of people on the Autism spectrum who commit murder very, very low, but in almost 85% of the cases of someone with autism committing murder there was also an underlying psychiatric condition (such as bipolar disorder) that was more likely to be the primary factor.
The autistic population actually commits a lower rate of violent crime than the general population. They are far more likely to be the victims of violence and other crimes than the perpetrators.
Mirth, yeah I don't really think it's my place to forgive him or not -- that's for his victims and for God to do, he didn't do anything against me. And even if he had sinned against me, and I thought I had a moral obligation to forgive him (which I would think I did, btw), I wouldn't think forgiving him necessarily meant forgoing his punishment even if he was clearly repentant -- and definitely if he wasn't. It just means being seriously prepared to reconcile with him given real opportunities, and hoping toward that, and acting toward it on my side of responsibility where possible.
"Justice" isn't fulfilled, though it may be partially served, by simply punishing him (even to death). Justice is fulfilled by him coming to be a just person. If a death penalty helps with that, great; if not, it isn't a just punishment, though an unjust punishment might still be practical for other purposes.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 25, 2015, 02:58:20 PM
Mirth, yeah I don't really think it's my place to forgive him or not -- that's for his victims and for God to do, he didn't do anything against me. And even if he had sinned against me, and I thought I had a moral obligation to forgive him (which I would think I did, btw), I wouldn't think forgiving him necessarily meant forgoing his punishment even if he was clearly repentant -- and definitely if he wasn't. It just means being seriously prepared to reconcile with him given real opportunities, and hoping toward that, and acting toward it on my side of responsibility where possible.
"Justice" isn't fulfilled, though it may be partially served, by simply punishing him (even to death). Justice is fulfilled by him coming to be a just person. If a death penalty helps with that, great; if not, it isn't a just punishment, though an unjust punishment might still be practical for other purposes.
I think you give a good stab as to the concept of "justice" and forgiveness. To be honest I've found several good examples over the years each of which carry weight with me, despite my predilection for cynicism ;):
To disarm the strong and arm the weak would be to change the social order, which it's my job to preserve. Justice is the means by which established injustices are sanctioned.
Anatole France (Crainquebille)
Human law is law only by virtue of its accordance with right reason, and by this means it is clear that it flows from Eternal law. In so far as it deviates from right reason it is called an Unjust law; and in such a case, it is no law at all, but rather an assertion of violence.St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologiae)
The love of justice in most men is simply the fear of suffering injustice.Francois, Duc de la Rochefoucauld (Maximes)
None of these definitions quite hit the universal mark, but each makes a good point about aspects of the context of justice - the sense of the need to preserve the status quo of society sometimes irrespective of the facts, that we expect law to been intrinsically "right", else it becomes oppression, and that individually we want to be treated fairly.
Personally, I'm not convinced that the death sentence is universally a good thing. It doesn't necessarily deter killing, and you can get the wrong person. Once they're dead you can't bring them back. It is convenient, gives a sense that the law is tough on murder, but each judicial killing you get wrong is a cruel indictment on the system, and lends strength to Anatole France's critical example of "authoritative justice" in his story of Crainquebille. (I thoroughly recommend it as an interesting look at the authority of the state vs the rights of the individual and the principles of natural law, not to mention social attitudes to those with criminal records however gained, as well as forgiveness/understanding).
If you're interested, I enclose a link to the text here. It's fictional, but you can see how it could be a very real situation.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Crainquebille,_Putois,_Riquet_and_other_profitable_tales/Crainquebille
Part IV is particularly illuminating as to the logic underpinning the decision in Crainquebille's case and the struggle between justice and the maintenance of authority. It also draws indirectly on St Aquinas, in the relationship of violence to justice.
Coming back to the instant matter, I remain of the opinion that whether Roof lives or dies as a result of the judicial process, it will not bring the dead back to their families. That they are forgiving is laudable, although I doubt that I'd be as forgiving if it were one of my relatives.
Unfortunately, President Obama is right that mass killings of this sort seem to be common to the US (e.g http://www.vox.com/2015/6/25/8836735/map-mass-shootings-sandy-hook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Americas) ) , and far less frequent in other civilised countries (not saying it doesn't happen, but it happens far less), so what has been learnt to take steps to reduce this? If nothing is learnt and acted upon, then this set of killings will just be repeated later on. The evidence supports the prediction. >:( :(
I expect that mass killings of this sort being more prevalent in the US are due to a significant number of factors complexly related, none of which can be more than slowly and partially redressed. It might be a lesser-evil sort of situation, too, where we have 'mass' killings of this sort, but not the kind of 'mass' killings prevalent many, many other places in the world. Still, on a comparison with other Western nations, why are we so different? Less rigorous gun control? Notions of freedom and criminal rights which give people the idea they can either get away with it or benefit from doing it, or even that it ought to be done? Despite obvious abuses I'm not convinced changing such things is a good idea in the long run, even though more rigorous gun control might well reduce opportunistic episodes of this sort.
As for justice, I think what justice 'is' (including whether justice is or can be objective, or only subjective) will depend primarily or entirely on what foundational reality is. Who is to say that justice isn't only punishment against those who break the law, or the mere intentions of whoever happens (singly or corporately) to have the most power to affect other people (either concept of which often involves supernaturalistic theism, so an appeal to God might be of no principle help except in identifying where the most intentional power is), or a conceptual illusionary side-effect of feelings which happen to spread genes more effectively through species than other feelings? I can say 'justice' is the fulfillment of mutually supporting and even self-sacrificing fair-togetherness between persons, but so what? -- plenty of other people have said quite differently over all of freaking human history. ;)
Of course, I'm saying so from within a metaphysic where the one and only ultimate foundational reality, upon which all reality depends for existence, is an intentional and active personal mutual support between persons (i.e. trinitarian or at least binitarian theism is true). That idea has logical corollaries, and one large such set of corollaries involves what ethics or morality ultimately involve. But aside from why I should believe that's true in the first place, it's necessarily competitive against other ideas of ultimate reality and their consequentials on what ethics, morality, justice, can or cannot or must or must not be.
Forgiveness is not forgetting, it is not agreement, it is not a decision to refrain from just punishment, it is not a decision to associate with the individual further. You can forgive, punish, and/or shun someone.
There are people whom I have forgiven whom I don't trust, whom I think are evil, and whom I will never associate with under any circumstances.
But forgiveness if attained can stop the pain of the person who was wronged (or at least lower the pain). Forgiveness helps extinguish the continued hatred in your heart so you can get on with your life and not hurt your other relationships.
The family members in Charleston achieved something very quickly that I do not think I would be capable of in that time frame.
I'm afraid that I would say things like:
If he is guilty he deserves death.
and
We put down mad dogs if they are a continued threat.
Well put, Airboy.
Boggit:
You cannot trust Vox to present the full story. They are a full blown left wing apologist outfit.
Mass Killings in the USA occur in one place - gun free zones. If you have a gun saturated society and you advertise "gun free zones" but do not actually ensure they are gun free (i.e. metal detectors & armed guards like we have at jails, courthouses, and airports) all you have accomplished is setting up a target rich environment for evil gun wielding people.
The only place I'm routinely concerned about getting shot is at work at my University - an idiotic "gun free zone" with protective "stickers" announcing the fact at doors.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 25, 2015, 05:46:44 AM
Quote from: panzerde on June 24, 2015, 07:59:20 PM
Quote from: Uberhaus on June 21, 2015, 08:17:29 AM
I don't think he would be using these drugs though. He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/)
I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.
You need to learn a lot more about autism. Your statement about people with ASD being responsible for "a number of murders recently" is factually incorrect and unsupportable.
I'll add that not only is the percentage of people on the Autism spectrum who commit murder very, very low, but in almost 85% of the cases of someone with autism committing murder there was also an underlying psychiatric condition (such as bipolar disorder) that was more likely to be the primary factor.
The autistic population actually commits a lower rate of violent crime than the general population. They are far more likely to be the victims of violence and other crimes than the perpetrators.
Staggerwing is correct.
I am clearly not stating that all people with autistic spectrum disorders are murderers, the possibility does exist that they can be. To support my statement regarding murders committed by people with Asperger's, Anders Breivik killed 77 people in Norway in 2011 and was diagnosed with Asperger's, Tourette's and narcissistic PD. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2156530/Anders-Behring-Breivik-rare-forms-Aspergers-Tourette-s-syndromes-says-Norways-leading-psychiatrist.html
Adam Lanza, diagnosed with Asperger's killed 20 children and seven adults, in Connecticut in 2012.
While my previous statement might have read as only prejudice, I was contemplating other possibilities. It must be considered that people with autism or other mental disorders can act violently and in some cases extremely violently.
Quote from: Uberhaus on June 26, 2015, 06:38:13 PM
While my previous statement might have read as only prejudice, I was contemplating other possibilities. It must be considered that people with autism or other mental disorders can act violently and in some cases extremely violently.
Anybody can behave violently. My son is autistic, and while he gets frustrated by things from time to time, he is nowhere near as prone to violence as I was at his age (which is probably due to environmental factors). I have met a number of autistic people over the years, and politely suggest that while anybody is capable of violence, my own experience is that autistic people tend less towards actual focused and serious violence than many other groups of people. I'm not saying they don't get anger issues - usually born of frustration - but serious pre-meditated violence is very rare. If anything I'd suggest autistic kids are more prone to being bullied than initiate the bullying themselves, and the same applies for autistic adults.
I had a look at the statistics on the prevalence of autism - in the UK it is a little over 1% of the population http://www.autism.org.uk/About-autism/Myths-facts-and-statistics/Statistics-how-many-people-have-autism-spectrum-disorders.aspx I'd suggest that if people who are autistic were the threat you imply, then given the significant size of the autistic population we would be seeing a far higher murder rate. The statistics just don't support your assertion that autistic people as a group have an increased propensity to murder. I don't think finding 2 murderers on the ASD spectrum is enough to validate your inference, given the number of murders that have taken place over the last few years.
Your argument might carry more weight - as Staggerwing states - with people who are paranoid, or schizophrenic, and perhaps - at a stretch - bi-polar, but not really for ASD, which is nowhere near the same condition as the aforementioned actual mental disorders. I respectfully suggest you learn a bit more about what autism really is about before you fall into the trap of making ill informed - and in consequence - seemingly prejudicial comments.
Boggit,
It seems you and I have a lot in common. Both my sons are on the spectrum.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 11, 2015, 10:04:34 PM
Boggit,
It seems you and I have a lot in common. Both my sons are on the spectrum.
And I'm one of those murderous Asperger types. :-)
Welcome to the family!
I am not implying that people with Asperger's are homicidal, this is being inferred. I was suggesting that Adam Lanza may have a form of autism, as appears in his facial features; as to other diagnosis, I can't and won't guess at anything.
I guess this makes me as guilty as a phrenologist, so I will withdraw my assertation and apologize unreservedly.
But Boggit, when you say:
Quotewith people who are paranoid, or schizophrenic, and perhaps - at a stretch - bi-polar, but not really for ASD, which is nowhere near the same condition as the aforementioned actual mental disorders
Are you not just as guilty of the prejudice I now ashamedly admit to being guilty of? The 'aforementioned' are also not the violent, but the bullied. Also, non-mild autism can be even more debilitating than mental illness, but let us not try and rationalize what is better and worse.
The WHO reports that one in four people will have a mental disorder at some stage in their life. Who can say who has what? Clearly not me. Sorry, I will not repeat this. In my defence, I will state that with my encounters with autistics amongst others, I have been kind, caring and accommodating.
Quote from: Uberhaus on July 12, 2015, 12:27:25 PM
I am not implying that people with Asperger's are homicidal, this is being inferred. I was suggesting that Adam Lanza may have a form of autism, as appears in his facial features; as to other diagnosis, I can't and won't guess at anything.
I guess this makes me as guilty as a phrenologist, so I will withdraw my assertation and apologize unreservedly.
I don't see how you can seriously argue phrenology. :2funny: It was debunked as pseudo science years ago.
http://www.historyofphrenology.org.uk/overview.htm#whathappened
That isn't exactly what you saying earlier... see below:
Quote from: Uberhaus
I am clearly not stating that all people with autistic spectrum disorders are murderers, the possibility does exist that they can be. To support my statement regarding murders committed by people with Asperger's, Anders Breivik killed 77 people in Norway in 2011 and was diagnosed with Asperger's, Tourette's and narcissistic PD. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2156530/Anders-Behring-Breivik-rare-forms-Aspergers-Tourette-s-syndromes-says-Norways-leading-psychiatrist.html
Adam Lanza, diagnosed with Asperger's killed 20 children and seven adults, in Connecticut in 2012.
While my previous statement might have read as only prejudice, I was contemplating other possibilities. It must be considered that people with autism or other mental disorders can act violently and in some cases extremely violently.
I wish you would make up your mind. In your first sentence you start off by saying that
not all people on the autistic spectrum are murderers, then say that the possibility remains that they are...??? You then go on to justify this contradictory statement using the Breivik case.
Quote from: Uberhaus on July 12, 2015, 12:27:25 PM
But Boggit, when you say: Quotewith people who are paranoid, or schizophrenic, and perhaps - at a stretch - bi-polar, but not really for ASD, which is nowhere near the same condition as the aforementioned actual mental disorders
Are you not just as guilty of the prejudice I now ashamedly admit to being guilty of? The 'aforementioned' are also not the violent, but the bullied. Also, non-mild autism can be even more debilitating than mental illness, but let us not try and rationalize what is better and worse.
I don't think I was being particularly prejudicial as I wasn't stating anything else other than fact, underpinned by numerous medical and criminal studies. There is an established association between violence and psychotic illness/disorders like schizophrenia, something not shared by people on the autistic spectrum as they do not usually display psychotic behaviour:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/180/6/490
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19457644
http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/702.full
http://www.mind.org.uk/media/998781/Violence-and-mental-health-Mind-factsheet-2014.pdf
http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fighting-fear/201401/the-relationship-between-violence-and-psychotic-disorders
http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/2/152.long
The evidence indicates that not everyone with a psychotic illness is predisposed to violent behaviour. However, it does suggest a greater predisposition within the psychotic population towards violence, compared to the non-psychotic population (which includes someone on the autistic spectrum). The incidence of violence by people with psychotic illness statistically tends to be greater particularly towards family/carers, and especially where they fail to follow their treatment regime, or are involved in substance abuse, which exacerbates the problem. Simply having a psychotic illness is a risk factor, but risk increases with the sort of factors I've just mentioned. I'd add that the majority of murders are committed by people free of mental illness, although some studies indicate that up to 10% of murders are down to people suffering psychotic episodes (which is significant as the proportion of people in the population suffering psychosis is relatively small). Also there is a correlation between suicide and psychotic illness, so violence can end up as self harm too.
Quote from: Uberhaus on July 12, 2015, 12:27:25 PM
The WHO reports that one in four people will have a mental disorder at some stage in their life. Who can say who has what? Clearly not me. Sorry, I will not repeat this. In my defence, I will state that with my encounters with autistics amongst others, I have been kind, caring and accommodating.
Mental illness is common and a very broad category of illness. Clinical depression makes up a large part of it. Psychotic illness is a relatively small subset of the totality of mental illness. (BTW autism is not a mental illness nor personality disorder, it is a complex developmental condition. On a lighter note, Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory TV show displays a lot of autistic characteristics, none of which are particularly psychopathic).
I'm sure you are kindness personified in your dealings with others. O:-) ;)
Boggit, I am clearly not arguing phrenology. I know it is pseudo science. How could you take the phrase "guilty as a phrenologist" as support for it? I am clearly showing it in a negative light. However, the science of autistics exhibiting certain facial features has not been debunked.
I also clearly state that the possibility exists that some people and not everyone with Asperger's can be extremely violent. "I am clearly not stating that all people with ASD are murderers, the possibility does exist that they can be." Some not all, that is not contradictory at all. If I had said "the possibility does exist that they
all can be", I would be clearly wrong. But, I did not say that.
Your argument that untreated psychosis leads to violence is supported, however how can you state that
QuoteThere is an established association between violence and psychotic illness/disorders like schizophrenia, something not shared by people on the autistic spectrum as they do not usually display psychotic behaviour
Violence exists in autism, it is documented anecdotally and scientifically.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/147/5/566
Violence and Asperger's A Case Studyhttp://www.autism.com/treating_self-injurious The title is
Controlling Assault/Self Injuryhttp://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20121218/aspergers-violence
If we look at this objectively, just like how a small number of schizophrenics will be violent, their is a risk that autistics will also be. One percent of the population are psycopaths (0.2 to 3.3% according to DSM-V http://www.theravive.com/therapedia/Antisocial-Personality-Disorder-DSM--5-301.7-(F60.2) ) Clearly, not all are serial killers or mass murderers, and you are relatively safe around them, physically at least. However, should we not be concerned about the few that are? That is what I interpret your logic as when you dismiss the assertion that some autistics can be violent.
In regards to
Quote(BTW autism is not a mental illness nor personality disorder, it is a complex developmental condition
It isn't just developmental, there are also brain abnormalities in autism at the cellular level, like there are abnormalities in mental illnesses at the structural level.
As to
QuoteI'm sure you are kindness personified in your dealings with others. O:-) ;)
Thank you, I am. I am confident that you are as well.
I will not apologise again, I am not insulting anyone by saying that some autistics are violent and I am supporting it with fact. All I regret now is the diversion of discussion away from the heinous murder of nine human beings for being black.
Hey, we're cool! ;D O0
Regretfully it has been reported in the US press that the shooter should not have been able to legally purchase a firearm. Clerical mistakes at the local police level allowed him to buy the gun.
This was not a failure of the law, but the implementation of the law.
Atlanta NAACP chapter calls for removal of Stone Mountain sculptures (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/14/atlanta-naacp-chapter-calls-for-removal-massive-confederate-sculpture-in-public/)
While the "news" media/Left ramp up their attacks on the symbols of the Confederacy, do they even remember that 9 innocent people were murdered, not by the CSA, but by a racist idiot?
^^ Only if it serves their purposes.
Verdict expected soon in the Colorado theater shooting trial
http://news.yahoo.com/verdict-colorado-movie-theater-shooting-trial-gunman-james-holmes-192828613.html
...and the sentence is Death (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/10/jurors-reach-verdict-in-penalty-phase-trial-convicted-charleston-church-shooter-dylann-roof.html). Can't happen soon enough. :knuppel2:
Quote from: steve58 on January 10, 2017, 05:06:38 PM
...and the sentence is Death (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/10/jurors-reach-verdict-in-penalty-phase-trial-convicted-charleston-church-shooter-dylann-roof.html). Can't happen soon enough. :knuppel2:
Good riddance.
^+100. Roof is the lowest of the low.
2017 is starting off as a good year.
And I bet he had the nerve to look surprised at the verdict. L:-)