Just Evil

[Uberhaus]

Agreed on the defunding of mental health care and  police having to deal with the consequences. However, nothing I've read so far about this shooting makes me believe this was a lost soul who didn't get the help he should/could have.

I read an article speculating it could have been related to the use of SSRI's - Zoloft et al, which apparently have a demonstrated record of outbreaks of violence.

In addition he was apparently a racist. Whatever the cause, this looks more like murder than a guy who slipped through the system.

The main proponents of increased homocidality and suicidality with Anti-Depressant medication are Dr. David Healy, Let Them Eat Prozac and Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry  There may be a link to these side effects and the inability to metabolize the drugs in certain individuals with the varied genetics of liver enzymes (Cytochrome P450s, specifically CYP 2D6 for most pharmaceuticals). 

I don't think he would be using these drugs though.  He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/

I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.

[JasonPratt]

Mirth and Nef: I did say that someone can be both insane and evil.  ::)

I just wanted to make sure this wasn't a case of a relatively recent behavior change brought about by a brain tumor or being off his medications or something of that sort. If it isn't, then fine, firing squad sounds fine to me!

I also admire the church members for choosing to forgive him. That's their prerogative, and I agree with the thought. Doesn't preclude the death penalty, even if he was penitent afterward, which as far as I can tell he isn't.

(Note by the way that as a Christian universalist I fully expect God to save him from his sins sooner or later, and it would be better sooner than later. In that vein, sending him on to a judge that is guaranteed to get his attention better would be sooner rather than later. ;) I mention this because given my beliefs I ought to be careful I'm not too quick on the death penalty draw, so to speak, since I'm thus inclined to let the death penalty do the hard work.)

[mirth]

Jason, I get what your saying and the kid deserves a fair trial. If it came out that he had a tumor that made him nuts, I would hope the jury hears that evidence and weighs it accordingly. Given the facts as they currently stand, and until contrary evidence is provided, I am comfortable saying his actions warrant death.

I fully respect the church members offering him forgiveness, personally I might be able to find it in myself to forgive him (honestly haven't given it much thought. On a personal level, I don't need to condemn or forgive him.Tthe universe takes care of that stuff -you reap what you sow).

Forgiveness aside, as a society there is an obligation to deal with heinous criminal acts and as a society we have determined that forfeiture of life is an appropriate penalty.

[panzerde]

I don't think he would be using these drugs though.  He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/

I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.

You need to learn a lot more about autism. Your statement about people with ASD being responsible for "a number of murders recently" is factually incorrect and unsupportable.

[Staggerwing]

I don't think he would be using these drugs though.  He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/

I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.

You need to learn a lot more about autism. Your statement about people with ASD being responsible for "a number of murders recently" is factually incorrect and unsupportable.

I'll add that not only is the percentage of people on the Autism spectrum who commit murder very, very low, but in almost 85% of the cases of someone with autism committing murder there was also an underlying psychiatric condition (such as bipolar disorder) that was more likely to be the primary factor.

The autistic population actually commits a lower rate of violent crime than the general population. They are far more likely to be the victims of violence and other crimes than the perpetrators.

[JasonPratt]

Mirth, yeah I don't really think it's my place to forgive him or not -- that's for his victims and for God to do, he didn't do anything against me. And even if he had sinned against me, and I thought I had a moral obligation to forgive him (which I would think I did, btw), I wouldn't think forgiving him necessarily meant forgoing his punishment even if he was clearly repentant -- and definitely if he wasn't. It just means being seriously prepared to reconcile with him given real opportunities, and hoping toward that, and acting toward it on my side of responsibility where possible.

"Justice" isn't fulfilled, though it may be partially served, by simply punishing him (even to death). Justice is fulfilled by him coming to be a just person. If a death penalty helps with that, great; if not, it isn't a just punishment, though an unjust punishment might still be practical for other purposes.

[Boggit]

Mirth, yeah I don't really think it's my place to forgive him or not -- that's for his victims and for God to do, he didn't do anything against me. And even if he had sinned against me, and I thought I had a moral obligation to forgive him (which I would think I did, btw), I wouldn't think forgiving him necessarily meant forgoing his punishment even if he was clearly repentant -- and definitely if he wasn't. It just means being seriously prepared to reconcile with him given real opportunities, and hoping toward that, and acting toward it on my side of responsibility where possible.

"Justice" isn't fulfilled, though it may be partially served, by simply punishing him (even to death). Justice is fulfilled by him coming to be a just person. If a death penalty helps with that, great; if not, it isn't a just punishment, though an unjust punishment might still be practical for other purposes.

I think you give a good stab as to the concept of "justice" and forgiveness. To be honest I've found several good examples over the years each of which carry weight with me, despite my predilection for cynicism ;):

To disarm the strong and arm the weak would be to change the social order, which it's my job to preserve. Justice is the means by which established injustices are sanctioned.
Anatole France (Crainquebille)

Human law is law only by virtue of its accordance with right reason, and by this means it is clear that it flows from Eternal law. In so far as it deviates from right reason it is called an Unjust law; and in such a case, it is no law at all, but rather an assertion of violence.
St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologiae)

The love of justice in most men is simply the fear of suffering injustice.
Francois, Duc de la Rochefoucauld (Maximes)

None of these definitions quite hit the universal mark, but each makes a good point about aspects of the context of justice - the sense of the need to preserve the status quo of society sometimes irrespective of the facts, that we expect law to been intrinsically "right", else it becomes oppression, and that individually we want to be treated fairly.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the death sentence is universally a good thing. It doesn't necessarily deter killing, and you can get the wrong person. Once they're dead you can't bring them back. It is convenient, gives a sense that the law is tough on murder, but each judicial killing you get wrong is a cruel indictment on the system, and lends strength to Anatole France's critical example of "authoritative justice" in his story of  Crainquebille. (I thoroughly recommend it as an interesting look at the authority of the state vs the rights of the individual and the principles of natural law, not to mention social attitudes to those with criminal records however gained, as well as forgiveness/understanding).

If you're interested, I enclose a link to the text here. It's fictional, but you can see how it could be a very real situation.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Crainquebille,_Putois,_Riquet_and_other_profitable_tales/Crainquebille

Part IV is particularly illuminating as to the logic underpinning the decision in Crainquebille's case and the struggle between justice and the maintenance of authority. It also draws indirectly on St Aquinas, in the relationship of violence to justice.

Coming back to the instant matter, I remain of the opinion that whether Roof lives or dies as a result of the judicial process, it will not bring the dead back to their families. That they are forgiving is laudable, although I doubt that I'd be as forgiving if it were one of my relatives.

Unfortunately, President Obama is right that mass killings of this sort seem to be common to the US (e.g http://www.vox.com/2015/6/25/8836735/map-mass-shootings-sandy-hook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Americas) ) , and far less frequent in other civilised countries (not saying it doesn't happen, but it happens far less), so what has been learnt to take steps to reduce this? If nothing is learnt and acted upon, then this set of killings will just be repeated later on. The evidence supports the prediction. >:( :(

[JasonPratt]

I expect that mass killings of this sort being more prevalent in the US are due to a significant number of factors complexly related, none of which can be more than slowly and partially redressed. It might be a lesser-evil sort of situation, too, where we have 'mass' killings of this sort, but not the kind of 'mass' killings prevalent many, many other places in the world. Still, on a comparison with other Western nations, why are we so different? Less rigorous gun control? Notions of freedom and criminal rights which give people the idea they can either get away with it or benefit from doing it, or even that it ought to be done? Despite obvious abuses I'm not convinced changing such things is a good idea in the long run, even though more rigorous gun control might well reduce opportunistic episodes of this sort.


As for justice, I think what justice 'is' (including whether justice is or can be objective, or only subjective) will depend primarily or entirely on what foundational reality is. Who is to say that justice isn't only punishment against those who break the law, or the mere intentions of whoever happens (singly or corporately) to have the most power to affect other people (either concept of which often involves supernaturalistic theism, so an appeal to God might be of no principle help except in identifying where the most intentional power is), or a conceptual illusionary side-effect of feelings which happen to spread genes more effectively through species than other feelings? I can say 'justice' is the fulfillment of mutually supporting and even self-sacrificing fair-togetherness between persons, but so what? -- plenty of other people have said quite differently over all of freaking human history. ;)

Of course, I'm saying so from within a metaphysic where the one and only ultimate foundational reality, upon which all reality depends for existence, is an intentional and active personal mutual support between persons (i.e. trinitarian or at least binitarian theism is true). That idea has logical corollaries, and one large such set of corollaries involves what ethics or morality ultimately involve. But aside from why I should believe that's true in the first place, it's necessarily competitive against other ideas of ultimate reality and their consequentials on what ethics, morality, justice, can or cannot or must or must not be.

[airboy]

Forgiveness is not forgetting, it is not agreement, it is not a decision to refrain from just punishment, it is not a decision to associate with the individual further.  You can forgive, punish, and/or shun someone.

There are people whom I have forgiven whom I don't trust, whom I think are evil, and whom I will never associate with under any circumstances.

But forgiveness if attained can stop the pain of the person who was wronged (or at least lower the pain).  Forgiveness helps extinguish the continued hatred in your heart so you can get on with your life and not hurt your other relationships.

The family members in Charleston achieved something very quickly that I do not think I would be capable of in that time frame.

I'm afraid that I would say things like:
If he is guilty he deserves death.
and
We put down mad dogs if they are a continued threat.

[LongBlade]

Well put, Airboy.

[airboy]

Boggit:

You cannot trust Vox to present the full story.  They are a full blown left wing apologist outfit.

Mass Killings in the USA occur in one place - gun free zones.  If you have a gun saturated society and you advertise "gun free zones" but do not actually ensure they are gun free (i.e. metal detectors & armed guards like we have at jails, courthouses, and airports) all you have accomplished is setting up a target rich environment for evil gun wielding people.

The only place I'm routinely concerned about getting shot is at work at my University - an idiotic "gun free zone" with protective "stickers" announcing the fact at doors.

[Uberhaus]

I don't think he would be using these drugs though.  He has the appearance of Asperger's and there have been a number of murderers with this disability lately.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-with-autism-have-distinct-facial-features-study/

I'm glad that we're unanimous that this crime is heinous.

You need to learn a lot more about autism. Your statement about people with ASD being responsible for "a number of murders recently" is factually incorrect and unsupportable.

I'll add that not only is the percentage of people on the Autism spectrum who commit murder very, very low, but in almost 85% of the cases of someone with autism committing murder there was also an underlying psychiatric condition (such as bipolar disorder) that was more likely to be the primary factor.

The autistic population actually commits a lower rate of violent crime than the general population. They are far more likely to be the victims of violence and other crimes than the perpetrators.

Staggerwing is correct. 

I am clearly not stating that all people with autistic spectrum disorders are murderers, the possibility does exist that they can be. To support my statement regarding murders committed by people with Asperger's, Anders Breivik killed 77 people in Norway in 2011 and was diagnosed with Asperger's, Tourette's and narcissistic PD.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2156530/Anders-Behring-Breivik-rare-forms-Aspergers-Tourette-s-syndromes-says-Norways-leading-psychiatrist.html
Adam Lanza, diagnosed with Asperger's killed 20 children and seven adults, in Connecticut in 2012.

While my previous statement might have read as only prejudice, I was contemplating other possibilities.  It must be considered that people with autism or other mental disorders can act violently and in some cases extremely violently.

[Boggit]

While my previous statement might have read as only prejudice, I was contemplating other possibilities.  It must be considered that people with autism or other mental disorders can act violently and in some cases extremely violently.

Anybody can behave violently. My son is autistic, and while he gets frustrated by things from time to time, he is nowhere near as prone to violence as I was at his age (which is probably due to environmental factors). I have met a number of autistic people over the years, and politely suggest that while anybody is capable of violence, my own experience is that autistic people tend less towards actual focused and serious violence than many other groups of people. I'm not saying they don't get anger issues -  usually born of frustration - but serious pre-meditated violence is very rare. If anything I'd suggest autistic kids are more prone to being bullied than initiate the bullying themselves, and the same applies for autistic adults.

I had a look at the statistics on the prevalence of autism - in the UK it is a little over 1% of the population http://www.autism.org.uk/About-autism/Myths-facts-and-statistics/Statistics-how-many-people-have-autism-spectrum-disorders.aspx I'd suggest that if people who are autistic were the threat you imply, then given the significant size of the autistic population we would be seeing a far higher murder rate. The statistics just don't support your assertion that autistic people as a group have an increased propensity to murder. I don't think finding 2 murderers on the ASD spectrum is enough to validate your inference, given the number of murders that have taken place over the last few years.

Your argument might carry more weight - as Staggerwing states - with people who are paranoid, or schizophrenic, and perhaps - at a stretch - bi-polar, but not really for ASD, which is nowhere near the same condition as the aforementioned actual mental disorders. I respectfully suggest you learn a bit more about what autism really is about before you fall into the trap of making ill informed - and in consequence - seemingly prejudicial comments.

[Staggerwing]

Boggit,
It seems you and I have a lot in common. Both my sons are on the spectrum.

[panzerde]

Boggit,
It seems you and I have a lot in common. Both my sons are on the spectrum.

And I'm one of those murderous Asperger types. :-)