http://www.matrixgames.com/products/product.asp?gid=587
QuoteNew naval warfare features
The modeling of ships has been improved. Instead of treating ships as a single piece of equipment, like a gun or a squad, they are now treated as complex systems that incur damage in combat. Ships have new armor, durability, accuracy, speed, and agility parameters.
Embarked units no longer employ their own strengths in defense. Naval combat now evaluates attackers' Anti-Naval strengths as individual shots/planes – employing their shell weights to determine armor penetration and resulting damage.
Sea Interdiction can now be employed by aircraft, ships, and coastal guns. Ships subjected to sea interdiction fire counterbattery back (or, in the case of carriers, counterstrikes).
New Supply system
There is now an intermediate supply state that falls between "Supplied" and "Unsupplied". It's called "Overextended". A new parameter called the Overextended Supply Threshold has been implemented. That is the location supply value below which locations are overextended. Units in such hexes will function somewhat between how supplied and unsupplied units function. The result will be that it will be much more difficult for units to press on at red-lined unit conditions from such locations.
Motorized unit movement over improved roads can be set by the designer to be less than one MP per improved road hex (for example, ½ MP per hex). If optioned, this affects supply in that supply lines traced over improved roads will extend proportionately further than over other terrain, like regular roads. Note how this would especially affect desert scenarios.
The limit of 50% unit supply recovery per turn has been lifted.
Other game features
Range Limits: Ranged units can have their nominal ranges player limited. This can be used to tailor bomber ranges to match fighter cover ranges or to make units with multiple range equipment operate within the range of the shortest-ranged equipment. The DBR will reflect the modified range.
Deployment Recovery: Ranged units retain their deployment states after combat and ground assaulters can recover theirs if a planned combat is canceled.
New Bridge Destruction Rules: There is an option to limit bridge hexes (for destruction purposes) to locations where the road feature graphically crosses the river feature.
Combat Report Review. Combat reports are saved in the pbl/sal files for review by both players during their player turns.
Adaptation of Matrix's PBEM++ system.
New Map and Interface artwork
Awesome! Can't wait to see some screenshots.
That is great. Is the product page new? I don't remember seeing it before. If its new, does that mean the release is near?
Another instant purchase for me. :smitten:
It's new. They just announced today.
This might be the first computer game purchase I've made in awhile.
Quote from: bbmike on April 12, 2017, 08:13:59 AM
Another instant purchase for me. :smitten:
What he said!
I haven't played TOAW for many years. Primed for the chance to give another go.
What I don't get with these Slitherine/Matrix teasers is they are always reluctant to give screenies etc.
TOAW...my all-time favorite game. I look forward to IV, but I hope they have not overdone "Feature and Flexibility" at the expense of playability. Many fixes and vast improvement, regardless. Can't wait.
Quote from: FlickJax on April 12, 2017, 10:27:16 AM
What I don't get with these Slitherine/Matrix teasers is they are always reluctant to give screenies etc.
...better no screenies than some mappacks! right, guys?! they didn't do the mappack trick for a while, right? who's with me?!!
:D
beers!
chem!
I will buy this one even though 3 is still great
Cautiously optimistic.
Do we know if this is a full rebuild ground up or just an evolution of the previous version (perhaps going a bit further than the last UI update on TOAW3)?
I loved TOAW. Best strategic games I had because things "seemed" to work. I'd drop paratroopers down behind enemy lines and whilst they weren't lasting long, they did divert enemy resources AND seemed to affect supply.
I'm seriously looking forward to this and it's day one purchase for me. It's been a while since I've had the desire to buy a Matrix game outside of a sale. Last game was the Barbarossa game...previous to that I think it was War in the West
Quote from: spelk on April 13, 2017, 04:45:15 AM
Do we know if this is a full rebuild ground up or just an evolution of the previous version (perhaps going a bit further than the last UI update on TOAW3)?
It is a major upgrade of the existing engine, so, for example, there is backwards compatibility with older TOAW scenarios , although they can be affected by the changes (particularly the ones that have naval units)
There's not only a new UI and improved graphics but also a lot of changes and enhancements. We have listed several of them on the product page and will try to offer a more detailed explanation of them in the coming weeks.
The different dialog boxes and reports have been made more useful, Editor options seriously extended etc. I think you will like it. :)
Quote from: jomni on April 12, 2017, 10:28:40 PM
Cautiously optimistic.
Yup my sentiments exactly. Until we see some screenshots, gameplay, and reviews, I'll remain intrigued but not sold on a shiny new paint for an old engine.
Quote from: Bison on April 13, 2017, 09:11:59 AM
Quote from: jomni on April 12, 2017, 10:28:40 PM
Cautiously optimistic.
Yup my sentiments exactly. Until we see some screenshots, gameplay, and reviews, I'll remain intrigued but not sold on a shiny new paint for an old engine.
You're such a curmudgeon :P
I am.
I really enjoy TOAW3, but the engine is now what 15+ years old. I have same feelings about JTS games. I love their games too, but there is only so much each upgrade can do. I really hope that my reservation are proven wrong.
It's like you want a modern UI or something :crazy2:
It'd be nice for sure. I really love the Tiller line of games for example, but I've stopped purchasing and playing on a regular basis because of the interface. Well that and the ridiculously small font. Aging eyes love larger fonts. :) I just hope that the old TOAW3 code can be "modernized," but I wonder how much can really be done on this account. That is where my reservations come from about a "new" and "improved" game.
Quote from: Bison on April 13, 2017, 09:26:41 AM
I am.
I really enjoy TOAW3, but the engine is now what 15+ years old. I have same feelings about JTS games. I love their games too, but there is only so much each upgrade can do. I really hope that my reservation are proven wrong.
I'm excited about the title, but I'm in agreement with Bison, I'd like it to bring the game into the modern arena, rather than just be a scrub up and a lick of paint.
The name already has a lot of reputation with wargamers, I'd just like to see it exceed expectations and take us into the future with an operational wargame engine that can do what it did before, but feel like it truly has been modernised and brought up to date.
TOAW3 was always intriguing to me. I don't know much about it except it's NATO counters and has boatloads of scenarios. Those both appeal to me. Tell me why else I should love this game and hope that 4 is even better?
Quote from: MetalDog on April 14, 2017, 08:39:51 PM
TOAW3 was always intriguing to me. I don't know much about it except it's NATO counters and has boatloads of scenarios. Those both appeal to me. Tell me why else I should love this game and hope that 4 is even better?
1. It covers a lot of conflicts.
2. Unique turn structure (actually it's very fluid and hard to explain).
3. Some don't know this but you can give high level move commands and the sub units will just follow. No pushing of 1000s of counters.
I expect TOAW4 to be more of the same actually. Just more bells and whistles.
Can't wait, I've been a TOAW addict from the beginning!
Still no hex side rivers? Find that sooooooooo annoying that it's a deal breaker for me.
Oh wow, what a neat surprise, I had almost given up on hope ever seeing TOAW IV :smitten:
According to posts at their Matrix forum, there should be screenshots in next few days.
Day one purchase for sure :bd:
Quote from: jomni on April 14, 2017, 08:51:18 PM
Quote from: MetalDog on April 14, 2017, 08:39:51 PM
TOAW3 was always intriguing to me. I don't know much about it except it's NATO counters and has boatloads of scenarios. Those both appeal to me. Tell me why else I should love this game and hope that 4 is even better?
1. It covers a lot of conflicts.
2. Unique turn structure (actually it's very fluid and hard to explain).
3. Some don't know this but you can give high level move commands and the sub units will just follow. No pushing of 1000s of counters.
I expect TOAW4 to be more of the same actually. Just more bells and whistles.
Adaptive scale and support for various historic eras, the unique turn structure, ... TOAW III scenarios covered WW I, WW II, KR, VN, Modern Era, and one of the guys even did the S&T magazines Breitenfeld and Lutzen battles of the Thirty Years war, how's that for adaptability!
Beta, info and Screenshots!!
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2219/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.opens.the.gates.for.Beta.Recruitment!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FHypothetical-invasion-of-North-Vietnam-in-1969.jpg&hash=5351dc3f2d4eba000a48ee52aed09317d0f3b444)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FMay-6th-1944-Soviet-forces-being-their-offensive-into-Hungary.jpg&hash=5e8a7bdfe193166eff1da5d474295f9a94f4a834)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FOperation-Cobra-launches.jpg&hash=450d133ab874b4345213ffe059eb2f78f2bd1cac)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FUnit-report-on-an-Israeli-armored-brigade-at-the-start-of-the-Six-Days-War.jpg&hash=0c877e4b1efb9997c41f0b79cbd12ee72e8ece3d)
I have to be honest here. I see those screenshots and they do nothing for me.
I know many of you guys love this game and games like it, meaning the old hex and counter grogfests. But that just seems so 1980. We've progressed so much from a wargame perspective that it's hard to feel like that is anything revolutionary.
Don't get me wrong, I know that it's great at what it does, but I feel like wargaming has evolved beyond that type of game now.
I mean, if you took away the city titles, and the little captions at the bottom of the screen, those scenarios look essentially the same.
Quote from: Toonces on April 19, 2017, 08:28:03 AM
I have to be honest here. I see those screenshots and they do nothing for me.
I have to agree.
Still looks good to me, but I like the old hex and counter grogfests. :smitten:
Quote from: bbmike on April 19, 2017, 08:58:42 AM
Still looks good to me, but I like the old hex and counter grogfests. :smitten:
I'm a hex and chit fan also. I was hoping for a better unit info panel, and perhaps there is more to it. Looking forward to it.
The looks OK for me, nothing to get excited about honestly, but I'm wondering how similar to the previous games it will be? Whether there will be any changes/upgrades to the engine itself.
Quote from: Toonces on April 19, 2017, 08:28:03 AM
I have to be honest here. I see those screenshots and they do nothing for me.
I know many of you guys love this game and games like it, meaning the old hex and counter grogfests. But that just seems so 1980. We've progressed so much from a wargame perspective that it's hard to feel like that is anything revolutionary.
Don't get me wrong, I know that it's great at what it does, but I feel like wargaming has evolved beyond that type of game now.
I mean, if you took away the city titles, and the little captions at the bottom of the screen, those scenarios look essentially the same.
Curious, what were you expecting to see in TOAW IV? Or is it the hex'n chits you don't much care about?
Screen shots look good. Now it's a wait and see the feedback on gameplay particularly after the new game hype fades.
It's the hex and chits.
I'm not singling out this game; it's what it does. It just seems very, very old school.
Quote from: Toonces on April 19, 2017, 09:43:53 AM
It's the hex and chits.
I'm not singling out this game; it's what it does. It just seems very, very old school.
Thanks, gotcha. Hex and chits old school, now what's that all about ha :nerd:
Quote from: Toonces on April 19, 2017, 09:43:53 AM
It's the hex and chits.
I'm not singling out this game; it's what it does. It just seems very, very old school.
You must really hate all of those 8bit pixel looking games on Steam. Those also seem very, very old school to me.
Got to side with toonces here
For a long wait for release only to see, essentially a 1980s game screenshots, what's the big wait for?
I just want to know if it'll have a VR option.
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 19, 2017, 11:15:15 AM
Got to side with toonces here
For a long wait for release only to see, essentially a 1980s game screenshots, what's the big wait for?
Again, curious: what would you have expected to see in a 2017 hex and chits game? Honest question.
Quote from: Crossroads on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 19, 2017, 11:15:15 AM
Got to side with toonces here
For a long wait for release only to see, essentially a 1980s game screenshots, what's the big wait for?
Again, curious: what would you have expected to see in a 2017 hex and chits game? Honest question.
Something more modern. Not sure what exactly that would look like, but those screenshots look pretty much like TOAW III. I know it's purely visual and there will be substantial changes under the hood, but the pics don't sell me on the idea that this is really a new game.
Having seen the screenshots, I'm less enthusiastic about the game than when I read the first announcement.
Quote from: Crossroads on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
Again, curious: what would you have expected to see in a 2017 hex and chits game? Honest question.
I want 4k 3d Hexes and Chits modeled on true, photo realistic terrain.
I do like the rounded corners of the counters.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 19, 2017, 12:28:43 PM
Quote from: Crossroads on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
Again, curious: what would you have expected to see in a 2017 hex and chits game? Honest question.
I want 4k 3d Hexes and Chits modeled on true, photo realistic terrain.
Cheers
Quote from: Crossroads on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 19, 2017, 11:15:15 AM
Got to side with toonces here
For a long wait for release only to see, essentially a 1980s game screenshots, what's the big wait for?
Again, curious: what would you have expected to see in a 2017 hex and chits game? Honest question.
Something more dynamic with the map - I'm not talking total warhammer
If the dev or publisher really want to convince me this isn't 2 or 3 in a box that's says 4, then show me some love before asking for my money
Because, and I know this is no measure of an update and new features, it looks EXACTLY like the last one I paid for
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 19, 2017, 12:41:56 PM
Because, and I know this is no measure of an update and new features, it looks EXACTLY like the last one I paid for
bingo
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 19, 2017, 12:41:56 PM
Something more dynamic with the map - I'm not talking total warhammer
If the dev or publisher really want to convince me this isn't 2 or 3 in a box that's says 4, then show me some love before asking for my money
Because, and I know this is no measure of an update and new features, it looks EXACTLY like the last one I paid for
I'd like to see something more dynamic as well, but it's easier said than done once you go to the Operational Level and above.
I remember the old Three-Sixty game Patriot from the 90's. It tried to do away with the typical hex and counter model, and it was pretty awful.
Still, technology has come a long way. I'm just not sure TOAOW is really the game series to be the standard bearer of a new approach to operational level wargaming.
I've always liked the maps and chits no issues with them, but the TOAW III user interface is so clunky I finally stopped going back to it. That's supposedly changed, I'm curious to see the new turn resolution mechanism for instance, it's remade to be easier to grasp according to a post at their Matrix forum.
I never had a problem with the map, someone will mod it anyway, it's the turn/ rounds system I had trouble with. It was hard to get into. Looks like Larry will be doing an AAR soon, so we' ll get to see more.
Quote from: mirth on April 19, 2017, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: Crossroads on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 19, 2017, 11:15:15 AM
Got to side with toonces here
For a long wait for release only to see, essentially a 1980s game screenshots, what's the big wait for?
Again, curious: what would you have expected to see in a 2017 hex and chits game? Honest question.
Something more modern. Not sure what exactly that would look like, but those screenshots look pretty much like TOAW III. I know it's purely visual and there will be substantial changes under the hood, but the pics don't sell me on the idea that this is really a new game.
Having seen the screenshots, I'm less enthusiastic about the game than when I read the first announcement.
Agreed looks like TOAW III was modded.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 19, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I remember the old Three-Sixty game Patriot from the 90's. It tried to do away with the typical hex and counter model, and it was pretty awful.
One of the only wargames I ever returned to the store.
Three-Sixty Pacific... that first version of Harpoon haunts me to this day.
Quote from: mirth on April 19, 2017, 06:10:13 PM
Three-Sixty Pacific... that first version of Harpoon is one of the many things that haunts me to this day.
FTFY
The new UI has that War In The West look.
Quote from: mirth on April 19, 2017, 06:10:13 PM
Three-Sixty Pacific... that first version of Harpoon haunts me to this day.
Harpoon had been out for a while when Patriot was released. It was supposed to be 360's big follow up to Harpoon. I still have the 5-1/4" disks in a box in storage.
Quote from: bbmike on April 19, 2017, 06:35:58 PM
Quote from: mirth on April 19, 2017, 06:10:13 PM
Three-Sixty Pacific... that first version of Harpoon is one of the many things that haunts me to this day.
FTFY
Much better.
Quote from: IronX on April 19, 2017, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 19, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I remember the old Three-Sixty game Patriot from the 90's. It tried to do away with the typical hex and counter model, and it was pretty awful.
One of the only wargames I ever returned to the store.
I was a beta tester on that one. We tried to tell them......I think the marketing suits must have demanded a release.
I like the map and the graphics. I hope they leave them alone, other than maybe making them more Hi-res. Then clean up the UI and fix stuff under the hood. That's all I want. I DO NOT want a "re-imagining" or a major re-vamp. It is a classic for a reason. Fix the stuff that does not work right, clean up the UI, make the graphics higher res (or not) and send it to me. If you do not like this style of game, look elsewhere. The hex & counters is what makes it attractive.
Quote from: jomni on April 19, 2017, 06:50:11 PM
The new UI has that War In The West look.
I got the same vibe.
Quote from: spelk on April 19, 2017, 08:10:37 AM
Beta, info and Screenshots!!
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2219/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.opens.the.gates.for.Beta.Recruitment!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FHypothetical-invasion-of-North-Vietnam-in-1969.jpg&hash=5351dc3f2d4eba000a48ee52aed09317d0f3b444)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FMay-6th-1944-Soviet-forces-being-their-offensive-into-Hungary.jpg&hash=5e8a7bdfe193166eff1da5d474295f9a94f4a834)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FOperation-Cobra-launches.jpg&hash=450d133ab874b4345213ffe059eb2f78f2bd1cac)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Famazon%2FScreenshots%2FTOAOW4%2FUnit-report-on-an-Israeli-armored-brigade-at-the-start-of-the-Six-Days-War.jpg&hash=0c877e4b1efb9997c41f0b79cbd12ee72e8ece3d)
I am now proper wet :smitten:
Those counters looks crisp and delicious, I want devour them all :D
Looks very nice!
I wonder if unit breakdowns always have to end up with multiple smaller units of the same type as the parent? There appears to be a German panzer division split into 3 panzer regiments in the Hungarian screenshot. I believe it should be 1 panzer and 2 motorized to be more accurate. That kind of bugs me about GGWitE as well, though it can probably be rationalized that the tanks and infantry have been integrated into 3 equal combat commands or kampfgruppes.
Quote from: solops on April 19, 2017, 09:22:47 PM
I like the map and the graphics. I hope they leave them alone, other than maybe making them more Hi-res. Then clean up the UI and fix stuff under the hood. That's all I want. I DO NOT want a "re-imagining" or a major re-vamp. It is a classic for a reason. Fix the stuff that does not work right, clean up the UI, make the graphics higher res (or not) and send it to me. If you do not like this style of game, look elsewhere. The hex & counters is what makes it attractive.
bingo
While I am not a "hex and chit" guy first and foremost. It works at the operational and strategic level. Besides that, TOAW 3 was a great game. It stuck with the basics of a strategy game, yet also had some very unique mechanics that worked fairly well. It wasn't perfect, but I can't think of another game that had the scope, scale, detail, and still worked.
The short of it is as mentioned above. Don't fix what ain't broke. Clean up some of the little things, optimize the engine, and smooth out the UI. But don't "re-imagine" the whole thing.
I'm not asking for a radical overhaul of the game. Would be nice if it didn't look like basically every version of the game I've bought previously. I've purchased at least 3 iterations of TOAW since 2000. If this feels like simply more of the same with a bit of polish, I'll pass. No big whoop and I won't bash the game. I just won't buy it.
I will buy :)
Oh hell, I will too :P
You should focus your finances on more vital things like your aquarium hobby
Quote from: Bison on April 20, 2017, 11:52:15 AM
You should focus your finances on more vital things like your aquarium hobby
That money is coming straight out of the kids' Lego budget.
Quote from: mirth on April 20, 2017, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: Bison on April 20, 2017, 11:52:15 AM
You should focus your finances on more vital things like your aquarium hobby
That money is coming straight out of the kids' Lego budget.
So you are saying its still coming out of your wallet. Gotcha.
Quote from: Bison on April 20, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 20, 2017, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: Bison on April 20, 2017, 11:52:15 AM
You should focus your finances on more vital things like your aquarium hobby
That money is coming straight out of the kids' Lego budget.
So you are saying its still coming out of your wallet. Gotcha.
<sigh> Now I'm depressed. Think I'll buy a game to cheer myself up.
Quote from: mirth on April 20, 2017, 11:57:16 AM
Quote from: Bison on April 20, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 20, 2017, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: Bison on April 20, 2017, 11:52:15 AM
You should focus your finances on more vital things like your aquarium hobby
That money is coming straight out of the kids' Lego budget.
So you are saying its still coming out of your wallet. Gotcha.
<sigh> Now I'm depressed. Think I'll buy a game to cheer myself up.
I recommend Agricola. You can be depressed as you find new and exciting ways to feed your family in a pre-industrialized world.
I meant a real game.
Quote from: mirth on April 20, 2017, 12:00:46 PM
I meant a real game.
Ah...right. I recommend Terra Mystica. If you have multiple personalities, it quite the solo game.
Quote from: solops on April 19, 2017, 09:19:33 PM
Quote from: IronX on April 19, 2017, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 19, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I remember the old Three-Sixty game Patriot from the 90's. It tried to do away with the typical hex and counter model, and it was pretty awful.
One of the only wargames I ever returned to the store.
I was a beta tester on that one. We tried to tell them......I think the marketing suits must have demanded a release.
Yikes. I can't even imagine what it was like to test that steaming pile of a "game". I didn't even know they ran a beta back then.
But yeah, I took that one back as well. Story I heard back then was that Three-Sixty was more interested in Patriot appealing to the Army than they were making it functional for the civilian market, hence the horribly impenetrable mess that got released. Joke was on them when both markets rejected it.
I'll give it one thing, it was a pretty accurate simulator of headquarters level pre-battle staff planning. Not really something I want out of a game though. It "played" like a slideshow.
I'll be very happy to go back to the nice little counters in TOAOW IV. And hey, if it's anything like the third game there should be graphics option to turn the counters into little army men. Maybe they look extra spiffy this time.
I bought that game and it was one piece of junk. I think I sold it on eBay about 12 years ago
Re: Pics - the counters look good. The terrain is underwhelming. Blah. Pastel. Lack of definition and separation between terrain types. Probably look for a mod. FYI I think the War in the West/War in the East maps are bad, too, and keep me from playing on occasion. Just can't stand the baby-room blah maps. And...the later SSG games suffered from the opposite. Their maps were highly colored and lacked clear definition on a hex by hex basis. Very unpleasant to view and kept me from buying most of their otherwise outstanding games. I like the old TOAW style better, at this point. But, map graphics are things that can be fixed! The TOAW4 engine fixes are awesome. Feeling grognard this morning.
Looked again. Map not as meldy looking as I thought. Hmpf....still may like the older maps better, but I'll have to reconsider. I think what I dislike is the blah light greenish of the plain, clear hexes. I think I'd rather they were white. I can probably fix that. (?) Most of the other terrain looks fine.
Matrix forum member "ncc1701e" posted this over at Matrix forums, cracked me up.
https://youtu.be/hRAqWVqThF8
^that's a good one
^^Your opponent upgrading to next patch level in the middle of a PBEM is no laughing matter. I almost felt empathy to him until he told he got where he did by cheating. The b@stard :2funny:
"Order me a copy of Hearts of Iron 3"
:DD
I thought he was going to request Axis & Allies.
Ooh Missus!
Battlefield Timestamps
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4274372&mpage=1&key=�
^that was very good information.
Looking good so far.
I'm really looking forward to this. I've been a fan ever since TOAW came out years ago under Talonsoft.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 20, 2017, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: solops on April 19, 2017, 09:19:33 PM
Quote from: IronX on April 19, 2017, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 19, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I remember the old Three-Sixty game Patriot from the 90's. It tried to do away with the typical hex and counter model, and it was pretty awful.
One of the only wargames I ever returned to the store.
I was a beta tester on that one. We tried to tell them......I think the marketing suits must have demanded a release.
Yikes. I can't even imagine what it was like to test that steaming pile of a "game". I didn't even know they ran a beta back then.
But yeah, I took that one back as well. Story I heard back then was that Three-Sixty was more interested in Patriot appealing to the Army than they were making it functional for the civilian market, hence the horribly impenetrable mess that got released. Joke was on them when both markets rejected it.
I'll give it one thing, it was a pretty accurate simulator of headquarters level pre-battle staff planning. Not really something I want out of a game though. It "played" like a slideshow.
I'll be very happy to go back to the nice little counters in TOAOW IV. And hey, if it's anything like the third game there should be graphics option to turn the counters into little army men. Maybe they look extra spiffy this time.
The look of Patriot was very similar to what was being used by the Army in the early 90s.
Quote from: vyshka on April 28, 2017, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 20, 2017, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: solops on April 19, 2017, 09:19:33 PM
Quote from: IronX on April 19, 2017, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 19, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I remember the old Three-Sixty game Patriot from the 90's. It tried to do away with the typical hex and counter model, and it was pretty awful.
One of the only wargames I ever returned to the store.
I was a beta tester on that one. We tried to tell them......I think the marketing suits must have demanded a release.
Yikes. I can't even imagine what it was like to test that steaming pile of a "game". I didn't even know they ran a beta back then.
But yeah, I took that one back as well. Story I heard back then was that Three-Sixty was more interested in Patriot appealing to the Army than they were making it functional for the civilian market, hence the horribly impenetrable mess that got released. Joke was on them when both markets rejected it.
I'll give it one thing, it was a pretty accurate simulator of headquarters level pre-battle staff planning. Not really something I want out of a game though. It "played" like a slideshow.
I'll be very happy to go back to the nice little counters in TOAOW IV. And hey, if it's anything like the third game there should be graphics option to turn the counters into little army men. Maybe they look extra spiffy this time.
The look of Patriot was very similar to what was being used by the Army in the early 90s.
I actually liked "Patriot". But I also have had plenty of military training.
"Patriot" was much more like the way military units deploy and fight, or at least as they have done so for the last 100 years. If you look at an actual military unit deployment map, it does not bear much resemblance to the traditional counter / hexmap game.
I agree that "Patriot" itself was not a great game. I seem to recall the scenario was pretty boring. But I remember thinking it held a great deal of promise, and was looking for more.
IMHO I do think that gamers have the ability to move away from the traditional counter stack and hex map to more realistic layouts. My example for this is Matrix' Command: Modern Air / Nav Ops. If someone can play that game and enjoy it, they certainly could manage real unit deployment schemes.
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2272/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.gets.a.Live.Preview!
We will stream Tuesday 27th at 11 am CEST / 3 pm GMT / 5 pm CEST and for the first time ever, we will be live simultaneously on our official Twitch Channel, Youtube Channel and Mixer Channel at the same time.
Agrippa Maxentius will play some of the scenarios available in the game, including Iwo-Jima and Korea 1951 and show-off the different strategies, the features, the key innovations and more.
Good news. Thanks for the heads-up. O0
Looking good, nice evolution.
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 27, 2017, 01:02:58 PM
In the Iwo Jima battle it looked like the USA and Japanese counters were the same green color, with only the center oval around the unit symbol a different color. I found the confusing as I watched the video. Why would they do that?
That is very odd and hopefully something that's not going to be in the game
Excellent point, Rayfer.
I was watching the video while doing work, and shortly after he landed his Marines, I turned my head for a few seconds. When I looked back again it appeared as if the Marines had already captured Suribachi, and I thought, "damn, that was easy!" Then I realized the counter occupying the objective was actually Japanese. They definitely need to fix this.
Yeah I was asking myself the exact same question!
Indeed it's not optimal, but worth pointing out that unit colours are entirely up to the scenario designer's choice, the game itself is not "overwriting" that in any way. You could see the much more different colours in the other scenarios showcased.
Quote from: Tamas on June 28, 2017, 09:54:10 AM
Indeed it's not optimal, but worth pointing out that unit colours are entirely up to the scenario designer's choice, the game itself is not "overwriting" that in any way. You could see the much more different colours in the other scenarios showcased.
Interesting point. Thanks for noting. However, I hope these issues will be addressed, at least with respect to the scenarios that ship with the game. These type of things should definitely be caught by beta testers and QA.
Does anyone else noticed wierd combat result when USA player attacked Japanese company on the beach? This is combat summary for attacker:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.tinypic.com%2F344f4p5.jpg&hash=a31fe940511d61945acb4b6b6a7d51c59f69cefc)
American assault was supported with tremendous air firepower. However, attacker lost 42 airplanes (permanently destroyed). Beside that his aircraft carrier is disabled. What is rationale behind such losses?
According to report, no airplanes or heavy artilery were involved on defending side:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F2s18404.jpg&hash=879db7c2c4f7f95c4e44343da8f94ffe0fdaafa9)
Seems like there are some issues. Still I only watched 1:39 of the video and this is going to be a day one purchase for me. I'm sure they'll fix the bugs or at least explain the anomalies detected by us grogs.
I plan on buying this as well. But I did play the exact scenario they are showing in TAOW3 last night and it look exactly the same to me.
Quote from: bbmike on June 29, 2017, 11:18:27 AM
I plan on buying this as well. But I did play the exact scenario they are showing in TAOW3 last night and it look exactly the same to me.
So it's really Green vs Green.
It's great to see this first vid but wishes Matrix would have someone more proficient and knowledgeable demo it. So much more is there and not explained with any detail. But a great game has just about every war/conflict covered. Flexible, whatever you feel like you can play out.
When I was watching, I too, was like "How did they take the Mountain with no opposition?".. But I stopped watching shortly after, too much yakking about different streaming formats.
Yeah the constant checking and switching of streaming options or whatever it was, was super annoying.
Today, August 28th, we will be having a live stream of "The Operational Art of War IV"!
Come hang out with us on Twitch or Youtube, at 11 AM EDT / 4 PM BST / 5 PM CEST!
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2330/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.Live.Stream.TODAY!
Looking well excited for this to come out. The addition of more battle stats has peaked my interest. Where to start :)
Yep,
I'm looking forward to this as well and yep it does look pretty much like every other of its predecessors.
The cool thing about TOAW is the sheer amount of player content that comes after release through player scenarios.
The one thing it has always lacked is a good tutorial. Many moons ago, I was working on a tutorial scenario for TOAW III. Never finished it though. If TOAW IV doesn't have one, I might give it another go.
Quote from: Yskonyn on July 01, 2017, 11:08:30 AM
Yeah the constant checking and switching of streaming options or whatever it was, was super annoying.
+1
Super annoying enough to put a stop to my watching the video. I didn't appreciate the comments either about 'you guys will just have to buy the game and see what other scenarios come with it'.
Quote from: LAVA link=topic=19291.msg549697#msg549697 date=1504020898
I'm looking forward to this as well and yep it does look pretty much like every other of its predecessors.
/quote]
Thank goodness!!! The look of the game is one of the series strongest points. The TOAW3 UI could use some help, though.
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/TOAoW4_faq_final.pdf
TOAW IV FAQ - everything you want to know about the wargame of the year!
Sounds great. :bd:
I forsee some PBEM fun with this! :smitten:
Quote from: Pete Dero on September 19, 2017, 03:38:24 AM
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/TOAoW4_faq_final.pdf
TOAW IV FAQ - everything you want to know about the wargame of the year!
Well, everything you want to know except the release date. ::)
Quote from: bbmike on September 19, 2017, 05:48:05 AM
Quote from: Pete Dero on September 19, 2017, 03:38:24 AM
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/TOAoW4_faq_final.pdf
TOAW IV FAQ - everything you want to know about the wargame of the year!
Well, everything you want to know except the release date. ::)
Pffft..don't be silly. You only need to know that if you're interested in buying it :P
I'm unfamiliar with this game (and the ones before) but I was wondering if your only option are the 2d icons used for units? Is there a 3d option?
Thanks
Quote from: acctingman on September 19, 2017, 08:47:52 AM
I'm unfamiliar with this game (and the ones before) but I was wondering if your only option are the 2d icons used for units? Is there a 3d option?
3D map view (Operational Art of War III)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armchairgeneral.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fgamereviews%2Fpc%2Ftoaw3%2Ftoaw3-sixdayswar.jpg&hash=003a75544a9d1447c1c172c98966eec18e04c39d)
You're better off playing with the 2D icons. At least in TOAW III.
So, it is in III, but will it be in IV?
That (the screenie) looks like JTCS
Quote from: acctingman on September 19, 2017, 11:22:29 AM
That (the screenie) looks like JTCS
The 3D graphics in TOAW III are about on par with JTCS.
I wish I didn't like eye candy so much :-[
Looks like release date is 16th November!!
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2418/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.Release.Date!
:) Excellent
Quote from: mirth on September 19, 2017, 11:24:15 AM
Quote from: acctingman on September 19, 2017, 11:22:29 AM
That (the screenie) looks like JTCS
The 3D graphics in TOAW III are about on par with JTCS.
They seem to be the same in fact, from Talonsoft days that is. Both Campaign Series and TOAW were originally developed by them.
JTCS, the Matrix bundle, included some improvements on 3D side, from early Talonsoft days, like more early/mid/late war variants, as well as winter versions, for various units.
I've always played TOAW as a hex and counters game, fits the scale perfectly imho.
Of course, nowadays I play CS as hex and counters, as the new zoom views became available wit Middle East.
Quote from: FlickJax on November 07, 2017, 06:44:52 AM
:) Excellent
Oh, excellent indeed !!! My credit card is ready :bd:
But how many squillion dollars will it be? ???
I'd like to get back into TOAW but my gaming budget is taking a beating.....
Quote from: Barthheart on November 07, 2017, 07:44:28 AM
But how many squillion dollars will it be? ???
I'd like to get back into TOAW but my gaming budget is taking a beating.....
+1 I hope they don't price it like the WitE/W/P games.
Always fun to guess...I'll say between $29 and $39....either way I have a 40 percent off coupon that will make it easier :)
$50 DD $70 with a manual
Quote from: acctingman on September 19, 2017, 11:45:03 AM
I wish I didn't like eye candy so much :-[
That's not eye candy. It's eye cancer.
I see that there is an editor for editing maps and scenarios. Does this game have a random battle generator at all? I didn't see it in the FAQ so I'm assuming no, but I'm totally unfamiliar with this series.
I don't think it does and frankly, I don't think it really needs one. Its very historically driven and there are hundreds of scenarios. I like battle generators, biut this just doesn't seem like a game that needs one.
Of course its been 5-6 years since I even opened the game up so I could be wrong.
Quote from: RyanE on November 07, 2017, 10:03:11 AM
I don't think it does and frankly, I don't think it really needs one. Its very historically driven and there are hundreds of scenarios. I like battle generators, biut this just doesn't seem like a game that needs one.
Of course its been 5-6 years since I even opened the game up so I could be wrong.
I agree. I really do not see the draw of a random battle generator in a game like this.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 07, 2017, 10:55:22 AM
Quote from: RyanE on November 07, 2017, 10:03:11 AM
I don't think it does and frankly, I don't think it really needs one. Its very historically driven and there are hundreds of scenarios. I like battle generators, biut this just doesn't seem like a game that needs one.
Of course its been 5-6 years since I even opened the game up so I could be wrong.
I agree. I really do not see the draw of a random battle generator in a game like this.
+1
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 07, 2017, 08:59:04 AM
Always fun to guess...I'll say between $29 and $39....either way I have a 40 percent off coupon that will make it easier :)
Operation Art of War III still sells for $30 so $60 for IV feels like a reasonable guess.
Quote from: Pete Dero on November 07, 2017, 01:20:36 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 07, 2017, 08:59:04 AM
Always fun to guess...I'll say between $29 and $39....either way I have a 40 percent off coupon that will make it easier :)
Operation Art of War III still sells for $30 so $60 for IV feels like a reasonable guess.
is there twice as many new features than the old game? $60 seems high unless a lot of new enhancements, but who knows. always tough to gauge what matrix is thinking,
The new features are documented on the Matrix sight I thought. Back last time I looked at it, they reworked quite a bit.
Yep, saw it at their product page...was just more wondering if these would justify doubling the price of the current version...very well might, but I am leaning towards a lower price....we'll find out soon enough. As long as in a reasonable range, certainly will pick up.
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2422/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.Scenario.List
Many of you have wondered what scenarios will be included, how many from TOAW III, how many completely new ones, and so on.
That's why we have decided to publish the full list of the accessible scenarios, to give you a nice overview of the historical depth available.
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/TOAoW4_scenarios-list_low-res(4).pdf
Nice. 11/16 can't come fast enough.
Damn! Did they leave a battle out? I feel like taking every wargame I've got and chunkin' them in the river. HOLD IT. HOLD IT. I don't see any of Osceola's Seminole battles listed. Well there you go. #:-)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 09, 2017, 01:47:35 PM
Nice. 11/16 can't come fast enough.
oh no...this is released around the same time as Battlefront II. In fact a day earlier I believe. I really did like TOAW III :tickedoff:
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 10, 2017, 01:49:48 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 09, 2017, 01:47:35 PM
Nice. 11/16 can't come fast enough.
oh no...this is released around the same time as Battlefront II. In fact a day earlier I believe. I really did like TOAW III :tickedoff:
always room for both:)
I've got room for both :))
Its been a long time since I played this, the first one I think, but I noticed this one has scenarios for Coral Sea and Midway. Does it handle these kinds of battles well? For some reason I'm thinking it wouldn't, but it's been so long. I'm imaging a level of detail kind of like naval battles in Panzer General.
If you read through the thread, a major focus was improving naval warfare.
Are there any AARs or videos that show off the new focus on naval operations well so we can get an idea of how a Midway-type scenarios plays?
not aar, but detailed write up
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4292790
Thanks man. O0
There will be AARs, but not of the new naval gameplay unfortunately :'(
Looks like Korean War or D21 right now (might change).
Some of my fondest memories at with TOAW.
Lost count how many times I played Korea, Normandy, and Fulda. Played back in day before internet so was unpatched and bugged. Never played Matrix update, so am looking forward to this version. Great scenario list :D . Also really looking forward to playing the Nam scenario. I think there's a whole Nam war in one of them.
I really really really tried with 1 and 2 but despite putting a lot of hours in, never really liked the game. Aside from the famous Jeeps v Panzers issues which I never seemed to notice, I always had problems with:
1) The turn system. I could never, ever predict when I could save movement points and get another round of movement or battle. Even if it did work out, I never broke through a line with the second or third phase movement, ZOC movement penalties always seemed to prevent me ever having enough movement points
2) Supply. Other than staying on roads, I could never figure out how bad my supply was going to be
3) Infinite Artillery. I forget which units, maybe division or battalion artillery units, would be able to fire in any combat their formation was involved in. Was a double edged sword, in exchange for very weak artillery, every supply point around would evaporate.
4) Air interdiction/ground support. I used to not even bother with close air support, setting everyone to interdiction or air superiority would grind down the opposition if you were able to achieve air superiority....which I never understood the mechanics for.
The sum of the game just never seemed to reflect the battle period. Every single battle fought out like The Somme. Maybe I was a terrible player, but almost every scenario involved grinding down the other side and pocketing their entire force. Even playing crusader from both sides, I couldnt get close to historic performance in terms of distance covered, but could inflict 10x historic casualties and surround pockets.
I think I picked up 3 out of habit and barely played it. I'd be interested to hear what IV changes, especially if there's any sort of difference in feel between the 1912 and 1985 battles.
Released tomorrow.
Make sure you post your impressions Grim :2funny:
Tomorrow? Sweet! Must buy for me.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 15, 2017, 05:20:06 PM
Released tomorrow.
Make sure you post your impressions Grim :2funny:
it will be purchased tomorrow, but going away for a few days so won't get any time:(
£32.99 or $43.53
Printed colour manual for an extra £12.99 or $17.14
Total with manual - £45.98 or $60.68
I can't see how big the manual is - whether it's worth the extra £12.99
£17.11 for shipping so for me it's £61.10
Too rich at the moment. :'(
$54 CDN... it will have to wait for a big sale.... :P
But, $54 CDN is only what?....$20 US? :P
:knuppel2:
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 16, 2017, 09:25:32 AM
I can't see how big the manual is - whether it's worth the extra £12.99
Yeah, I'd like to see what the manual looks like.
Tempted. But also promised myself to work through some of my wargame backlog (WitW, WitP:AE, DC case blue, DC: Barbarossa)
Only $24 for me after using my coupon:). Today was the last day so glad it did not get delayed.
Quote from: jamus34 on November 16, 2017, 10:44:37 AM
Tempted. But also promised myself to work through some of my wargame backlog (WitW, WitP:AE, DC case blue, DC: Barbarossa)
Hell, my wargaming backlog goes back to TOAW III :crazy2:
Same here. One day I'm going to get back to my Kampgruppe game.
Quote from: jamus34 on November 16, 2017, 10:44:37 AM
Tempted. But also promised myself to work through some of my wargame backlog (WitW, WitP:AE, DC case blue, DC: Barbarossa)
That was my thought too and my backlog is longer than that, but I'm starting to crumble already.
Quote from: mirth on November 16, 2017, 10:46:10 AM
Quote from: jamus34 on November 16, 2017, 10:44:37 AM
Tempted. But also promised myself to work through some of my wargame backlog (WitW, WitP:AE, DC case blue, DC: Barbarossa)
Hell, my wargaming backlog goes back to TOAW III :crazy2:
Not...helping.
Grrrrhhh my coupon code isn't workin :tickedoff:
If you only see three scenarios when you first launch the game, as I did, change the directory (button on left when first selecting new game) to access the many hundred that come with the game.
How many pages does the manual have?
Total of 176. Some good iPad reading, for sure.
The is a preview of the manual here (http://www.matrixgames.com/news/2429/The.Operational.Art.of.War.IV.Manual.Preview).
Mirth want purdy book.
So just played around with it a little.
First impressions are that the interface is much improved. It also responds much faster. It seems like AI action and turn processing is slower, but I would have to run the same scenario III and compare.
I'd like to take the plunge - but I want the manual and £18 for postage is a disappointment for me. So I'm going to hold off to see if the postage comes down.
I found a post over at Matrix where I paid <£2 for postage for the physical copy of Decisive Campaigns
Plus - Battlefront II is out tomorrow and I want me some blaster and lightsabre action
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 16, 2017, 01:47:34 PM
I'd like to take the plunge - but I want the manual and £18 for postage is a disappointment for me. So I'm going to hold off to see if the postage comes down.
I found a post over at Matrix where I paid <£2 for postage for the physical copy of Decisive Campaigns
Plus - Battlefront II is out tomorrow and I want me some blaster and lightsabre action
Yet they have still failed to resolve the one huge issue that will stop me buying it. In hex rivers. Just too many anomalies to overcome mentally.
I caved like I knew I would, and just took the Operation Crusader scenario out for a spin. So far, looks pretty good!
I caved... So far so good....
Many men in their caves.
So there's a refund thread over there - the OP pointing out a large proportion of scenarios are not single player.
One guy responded with this
QuoteThere is AI for all scenarios, but not all has a "Programmed opponent" that means a script for the AI...
Does anyone here have any idea what that means? Can you actually have an AI without having it scripted meaning....? It can't do anything and....therefore isn't an AI?
I'm confused #:-)
lol - I see the usual answers are kicking around Matrix. Another guy said this (in answer to it not being on Steam)
QuotePS And it is not not on steam, it is just not yet on steam.
QuoteI want a refund as well. I just looked through my package and discovered that it does not include a live human opponent! This means I am forced to either play the AI, the PO, play both sides against myself, or go out looking for a human opponent. For $65 Matrix should be mailing me a human opponent that will be available to play against whenever we need them.
When I posted there yesterday to ask about the manual and postage costs, I was trying to remember why I left the place I loved so dearly...now I remember
Tamas from Matrix has cleared up "the mess" - stripping out all the sarky shite and given a clear answer (as one or two others tried to)
Quote
As for "no AI": ALL the scenarios can be played in single player without exception. The difference that can be made between the nearly 300 scenarios, is whether specific AI scripts to help and optimise AI planning have been added or not.
Some of the scenarios, and indeed, that usually means the massive ones, do not have such AI scripts and the designers felt that due to this the AI's performance in their scenarios does not live up to the standard set by the other 200+ ones. So they market these "PBEM only".
I'd like to point out that we have almost as many scenarios marked "PO (AI) only", including one of the most impressive and biggest ones, Directive 21, that lets you play the Axis forces through the entire East Front campaign from 1941 to 1945. The designers suggest you play this as the Axis, and your long term victory objective is not to lose Berlin by the end of it!
And also in the case of these scenarios, there is nothing stopping you from playing them PBEM. It is merely that the designers felt that the events scripted etc. give you the most historic result if you play as a specific side in single player.
And then there is the vast majority of the scenarios, where the AI has been properly helped by scripts for both sides AND the designers are not shy about recommending PBEM either.
It's the same case in III as well.
You answered your own question about the PO right? Shall I still answer you?
@the judge - thanks for the heads-up, mate! i found that refund-thread, too and was confused as well... i'll 'wait' til my coupon rolls in and give it a try soon.
cheers! ...and a merry TOAW4 friday to everyone! :)
Quote from: jomni on November 17, 2017, 02:24:00 AM
It's the same case in III as well.
You answered your own question about the PO right? Shall I still answer you?
I wasn't talking about PO - I was talking about AI because that's what the thread was about. Programmed Opponent is just an enhanced AI. If the person who answered it had made it clear, there wouldn't have been any confusion
What makes sense is there is an AI and there's an "enhanced" AI for some (most?) scenarios - for one or both sides. So "disaster" averted.
It so looks like a sweet game.
My 44% discount coupon, like magic, was dropped electronically yesterday! Guess what I took for that nice phat discount?! :hug:
That's right! TOAW4 (and CMANO's Shifting Sands). :D
Happy camper here!
the whole ai discussion confused me since i thought all prior versions were like that and was not something new with this release. if that is true as i believed, no idea why everyone was so surprised but i guess maybe they could have been completly new to this series.
i am sure even the simple ai will be more than enough to kick my butt as most games do:)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2017, 04:59:50 AM
i am sure even the simple ai will be more than enough to kick my butt as most games do:)
Exactly.
ffs - I've literally just bought Battlefront II and when I checked my email for confirmation, saw an 11 year, 44% discount from Matrix :knuppel2:
Hey guys, here is a list of all the scenarios, grouped by their designers' recommendation on how to play (AI or PBEM, or both):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959&mpage=1&key=�
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2017, 04:59:50 AM
the whole ai discussion confused me since i thought all prior versions were like that and was not something new with this release.
yeah, but it was praised with a lot of improvements.
the top-notch military simulation that every wargamer needs marketing sales pitch
A closer study of the information shows that is about new naval warfare , supply and some other tweaks (that's were the better AI may get assumed by old customers) and UI artwork,
as whooping TOAW 4 not TOAW 3.1
i will watch some fresh Let's Plays first and wait for a sale (or my coupon)
Quote from: Tamas on November 17, 2017, 06:47:29 AM
Hey guys, here is a list of all the scenarios, grouped by their designers' recommendation on how to play (AI or PBEM, or both):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959&mpage=1&key=�
Thanks Tamas. Very helpful (and clear) O0
Quote from: Tamas on November 17, 2017, 06:47:29 AM
Hey guys, here is a list of all the scenarios, grouped by their designers' recommendation on how to play (AI or PBEM, or both):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959&mpage=1&key=�
Indeed high up my list when bank recovers from Xmas raping!!!
Well in Sengoku Jidai there is an AI that functions well in a generic skirmish battle. But we scripted scenario specific AI plans for historical scensrios to convey historical behavior and set some alternate plans to make things interesting. The scenario will still work well without this as per skirmish. And many user made scenarios (in Pike and Shot) didn't have AI plans.
Quote from: MikeGER on November 17, 2017, 06:47:54 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2017, 04:59:50 AM
the whole ai discussion confused me since i thought all prior versions were like that and was not something new with this release.
yeah, but it was praised with a lot of improvements.
the top-notch military simulation that every wargamer needs marketing sales pitch
A closer study of the information shows that is about new naval warfare , supply and some other tweaks (that's were the better AI may get assumed by old customers) and UI artwork,
as whooping TOAW 4 not TOAW 3.1
i will watch some fresh Let's Plays first and wait for a sale (or my coupon)
sure but to be fair none of their marketing indicated specifically any change to their approach with scenarios and ai settings and they have been very transparent with posts prior to release on what was changed if purchasers took the time to view.
i am not at all trying to sell the game, it may not be the best game ever but just was surprised that people assumed something the developer never said and became angry demanding a refund.
I think sometimes this is why ninja marketing is a better approach to launches. Someone not connected to the devs mentions they hope something shows up or a certain thing gets done then its off to the races. All that pre-game content goes unread and then on release, but are screaming their disappointment to the gods because they assumed that feature was in the game.
A brand new game probably needs a full marketing push, but an update of an old classic I think is better off being quiet until launch.
TOAW IV scenario list by dev recommendation for solo, PBEM, or both: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959
This OP has some serious issues...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378472
I mean the guy has made no effort to even think about what he is doing. This is one of those times I thank the lord I never went into game development.
Quote from: Geezer on November 17, 2017, 08:53:03 AM
TOAW IV scenario list by dev recommendation for solo, PBEM, or both: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959
You were ninja'd on the previous page
Quote from: Tamas on November 17, 2017, 06:47:29 AM
Hey guys, here is a list of all the scenarios, grouped by their designers' recommendation on how to play (AI or PBEM, or both):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959&mpage=1&key=�
Quote from: RyanE on November 17, 2017, 09:16:02 AM
This OP has some serious issues...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378472
I mean the guy has made no effort to even think about what he is doing. This is one of those times I thank the lord I never went into game development.
Well - there' does seem to be a (an increasing) lack of understanding and even restraint. Jumping right away to "I WANT..."
It almost fits in with the thread going on in Religion, Politics and Flame Wars called "The lesser of two evils"
Quote from: RyanE on November 17, 2017, 09:16:02 AM
This OP has some serious issues...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378472
I mean the guy has made no effort to even think about what he is doing. This is one of those times I thank the lord I never went into game development.
Finding the scenarios is just slightly...just slightly counter-intuitive IMHO. So I give him a slight kernal of truth. But the guy didn't need to go off the rails. I wish people would do some thinking / checking before they explode all over social media...
Quote from: jomni on November 17, 2017, 07:42:21 AM
Well in Sengoku Jidai there is an AI that functions well in a generic skirmish battle. But we scripted scenario specific AI plans for historical scensrios to convey historical behavior and set some alternate plans to make things interesting. The scenario will still work well without this as per skirmish. And many user made scenarios (in Pike and Shot) didn't have AI plans.
To be honest, I think the development team, (and I), got a bit too used to TOAW3 conventions of indicating scenario particularities in the briefings, and how the game's community was familiar with those.
It seems like TOAW4 is drawing in new blood though, which makes me very happy. I can understand some concern on their part when first hearing about the "pbem only" thing and a wish for clearer information on that, even if I found some of the forum reaction a bit blown out of proportion.
Also part of this "issue" is that several of the "PBEM only" scenarios play quite nicely in single player, because the default AI can make a decent enough job with it. It is hard to introduce a simple uniform "should I bother with this one" indicator for players, when we have almost 300 scenarios, two sides each, with vastly different levels of scale and scope. But we are looking into how to make one. :)
Rather than specifying PBEM only, etc - which does suggest no AI - perhaps having a flag to say "Enhanced AI" or "Standard AI"?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 17, 2017, 11:12:20 AM
Rather than specifying PBEM only, etc - which does suggest no AI - perhaps having a flag to say "Enhanced AI" or "Standard AI"?
Yeah, possibly. Something to replace the old TOAW3 convention.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 17, 2017, 11:12:20 AM
Rather than specifying PBEM only, etc - which does suggest no AI - perhaps having a flag to say "Enhanced AI" or "Standard AI"?
Great idea....makes it much more understandable.
These people on the Matrix forum couldn't be bothered to mess around with things for a few minutes before going on and declaring the game is broken and that it does not have an AI single player. Did not even bother to ask or to click the little button on the bottom that selects the mechanism. Nope, just jump right on the forum and ask for a refund declaring they've been robbed
Glad to see I'm not the only asshole on the internet. :uglystupid2:
Quote from: mikeck on November 17, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
These people on the Matrix forum couldn't be bothered to mess around with things for a few minutes before going on and declaring the game is broken and that it does not have an AI single player. Did not even bother to ask or to click the little button on the bottom that selects the mechanism. Nope, just jump right on the forum and ask for a refund declaring they've been robbed
No kidding. Felt like telling that doofus to just set it to"AI vs AI" since it seemed he couldn't figure anything else out on his own.
Speaking of AI, it regularly beat me in TOAW3 so I expect to be subject to the same in 4. The graphics and UI have been cleaned up and with the number of scenarios and the $40 price couldn't pass it up.
What's funny is that same OP that declared he had been robbed has been mucking around in the Matrix Command forums for couple months. He says he sees no reason to read manuals, play tutorials, or watch videos to play the game. People have bent over backwards on that forum trying to explain things to him, but he would keep coming back asking the exact same questions. He even spent an entire thread trying to figure out what function keys are.
That TOAW thread is great validation that it was him and not the game.
What's neat about the AI in TOAW is that the player can also utilise it. One can just simply set their own PO for their side, set objectives and let the AI do the micromanaging.
Will there be a Steam release for TOAW 4 ? And, has anyone tried out Elmo on the latest version of TOAW, I found that in 3 it really simplified the bigger scenarios assigning objectives to the AI.
One of the issues is that complex games like TOAW and Command don't lend themselves to the way a lot of people buy games today. If they are going to spend more than $10, they want to know everything about the game to justify the cost. Just look at some of the detailed questions that get asked. And games like the above have so many features, like Elmer in TOAW, that no one can explain all of that to people who want a guaranteed hit to buy.
I remember buying games that cost $60, just because I like the box and the description on the back. And that was in the early 90's.
Quote from: Wburn on November 17, 2017, 07:41:24 PM
...And, has anyone tried out Elmo on the latest version of TOAW...
(https://cdn.drawception.com/images/panels/2012/5-4/kFHyRAOzpk-4.png)
So is this title worth the purchase? Seems a bit touch and go from what I've been seeing.
Quote from: Richie61 on November 18, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
So is this title worth the purchase? Seems a bit touch and go from what I've been seeing.
What have you seen that would make you think it was "touch and go"?
To me it's worth the price considering you can play battles in any war from the American revolution up to present, has great AI and is very deep and complex.
Quote from: mikeck on November 18, 2017, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: Richie61 on November 18, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
So is this title worth the purchase? Seems a bit touch and go from what I've been seeing.
What have you seen that would make you think it was "touch and go"?
To me it's worth the price considering you can play battles in any war from the American revolution up to present, has great AI and is very deep and complex.
+1. Besides the confusion on the AI options for scenarios (which was really no different than past versions), not sure I have seen anything significant being identified.
Jinxed myself:) After posting the above and getting around to installing myself, I am having pretty big issues with clicking and scrolling. Basically every click is delayed and scrolling doesn't happen right away, instead builds up the requests and goes crazy when caught up. Not playable at the moment because of these issues. My system is pretty decent and have the latest display drivers installed. Posted at the tech forums so hopefully something will be figured out.
Lucky for me no big problems so far. Grim did you try to start game with the opart4- slow application? If you have a decent rig no reason you cant run the regular opart4 but might be worth checking if there's a difference. It's in the main game folder.
Quote from: -budd- on November 18, 2017, 03:18:58 PM
Lucky for me no big problems so far. Grim did you try to start game with the opart4- slow application? If you have a decent rig no reason you cant run the regular opart4 but might be worth checking if there's a difference. It's in the main game folder.
Thanks, didn't know that existed and tried it....but no difference for me. Same situation sadly. Until I figure this out it will be unplayable for me because at the end of a turn you make a lot of clicks on information boxes and such....
Thanks for the replies on the game. Having cancer again and no job = no money for games, I used my coupon to buy Strategic Command WWII: War in Europe really cheap. Really liking it too!
Thinking I will save up for Christmas for The Operational Art of War IV :)
I have been wanting to game the Franco-Prussian war for years now. Not interested in larger strategy like pride of nations. More interested in operational or tactical. Does anyone know of any Franco-Prussian war scenarios for operational art of war and where I could get them?
I know in TOAW, there was a Franco-Prussian scenario built. I do't know where it is though. There is a site that collected the old scenarios.
Also, The old version of Strategic Command had an F-P campaign.
And there's a Franco-Prussian war scenario in Ageod's PON.
Quote from: Richie61 on November 18, 2017, 05:15:35 PM
Thanks for the replies on the game. Having cancer again and no job = no money for games, I used my coupon to buy Strategic Command WWII: War in Europe really cheap. Really liking it too!
Thinking I will save up for Christmas for The Operational Art of War IV :)
check your PM sir!!
:notworthy:
Quote from: RyanE on November 18, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
I know in TOAW, there was a Franco-Prussian scenario built. I do't know where it is though. There is a site that collected the old scenarios.
I think this is the site you are referring to: http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/ (http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/)
That's not the site I was thinking of but...
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-798-Franco-Prussian-War-1870-1871
For TOAW III so you'll need to open in the TOAW IV editor and save it in TOAW IV.
Quote from: RyanE on November 18, 2017, 07:53:18 PM
That's not the site I was thinking of but...
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-798-Franco-Prussian-War-1870-1871
For TOAW III so you'll need to open in the TOAW IV editor and save it in TOAW IV.
Thank you!
Grim,
Try going to set advanced player options screen and turn off allow huge map view. I was reading the manual and On page 12 it talks about turning it off if your mouse is acting funny.
I'll be picking this up later this month
Quote from: -budd- on November 19, 2017, 04:42:28 AM
Grim,
Try going to set advanced player options screen and turn off allow huge map view. I was reading the manual and On page 12 it talks about turning it off if your mouse is acting funny.
Thanks, I have tried playing with various options like this one with no luck. My computer is an I7 with a 2GB video card, along with 16GB of RAM....thinking not related to my capacity to run this game (TOAW 3 runs without issues) but some kind of conflict with this new version and something else on my PC, although I don't know what....really have never seen this type of issue before.
It's a shame since can't really play like this...glad to see others not seeing it.
I saw a post in the Matrix forums that said using the arrow keys are best for scrolling the map. Don't know if you are doing that already or not Grim.
Quote from: Geezer on November 19, 2017, 08:02:51 AM
I saw a post in the Matrix forums that said using the arrow keys are best for scrolling the map. Don't know if you are doing that already or not Grim.
Thanks...I actually should have clarified my issue after realizing I used the wrong term....although scrolling is a little wonky too, my main issue is actually with zooming in and out in the map along with the clicks not always working. I mistakenly said scrolling earlier. As for zooming, I attempted to use the menu buttons and saw the same issue I had using the mouse.
Grim, your not alone. I have experienced the same thing. Game slows waaaaay down or freezes and then like a spring, catches up my going super fast. It was on my laptop. I restarted the damn thing and turned off "real time scan" on my AV. I haven't had a problem since and I have no idea what caused it but if I can solve a problem by turning the computer off and back on then I can't solve it
But there is something wrong with it...not just your set up. Interacting with something.
I've been enjoying the game but I just wanted you to know you werent going crazy or something
Quote from: mikeck on November 19, 2017, 09:44:57 AM
Grim, your not alone. I have experienced the same thing. Game slows waaaaay down or freezes and then like a spring, catches up my going super fast. It was on my laptop. I restarted the damn thing and turned off "real time scan" on my AV. I haven't had a problem since and I have no idea what caused it but if I can solve a problem by turning the computer off and back on then I can't solve it
But there is something wrong with it...not just your set up. Interacting with something.
I've been enjoying the game but I just wanted you to know you werent going crazy or something
Thank you for reporting it, I thought I was alone...didn't see anyone else reporting it at the official tech forum. If you get time, I have a post opened there, would be great if you added your experience since I think they tend not to focus much on the issue unless widely reported. Its frustrating because I really want to play, just can't under these circumstances. Has to be something new with TOAW4 since the prior version works fine for me.
Grim, just curious if anything changes if you try turning "Allow mouse wheel zoom" off on the 2nd page of the advanced player options.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 09:51:26 AM
Quote from: mikeck on November 19, 2017, 09:44:57 AM
Grim, your not alone. I have experienced the same thing. Game slows waaaaay down or freezes and then like a spring, catches up my going super fast. It was on my laptop. I restarted the damn thing and turned off "real time scan" on my AV. I haven't had a problem since and I have no idea what caused it but if I can solve a problem by turning the computer off and back on then I can't solve it
But there is something wrong with it...not just your set up. Interacting with something.
I've been enjoying the game but I just wanted you to know you werent going crazy or something
Thank you for reporting it, I thought I was alone...didn't see anyone else reporting it at the official tech forum. If you get time, I have a post opened there, would be great if you added your experience since I think they tend not to focus much on the issue unless widely reported. Its frustrating because I really want to play, just can't under these circumstances. Has to be something new with TOAW4 since the prior version works fine for me.
I am seeing the same issues too. Hoping it's an easy fix :)
(https://i.imgur.com/7lkqTus.jpg)
Quote from: Richie61 on November 19, 2017, 11:14:49 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 09:51:26 AM
Quote from: mikeck on November 19, 2017, 09:44:57 AM
Grim, your not alone. I have experienced the same thing. Game slows waaaaay down or freezes and then like a spring, catches up my going super fast. It was on my laptop. I restarted the damn thing and turned off "real time scan" on my AV. I haven't had a problem since and I have no idea what caused it but if I can solve a problem by turning the computer off and back on then I can't solve it
But there is something wrong with it...not just your set up. Interacting with something.
I've been enjoying the game but I just wanted you to know you werent going crazy or something
Thank you for reporting it, I thought I was alone...didn't see anyone else reporting it at the official tech forum. If you get time, I have a post opened there, would be great if you added your experience since I think they tend not to focus much on the issue unless widely reported. Its frustrating because I really want to play, just can't under these circumstances. Has to be something new with TOAW4 since the prior version works fine for me.
I am seeing the same issues too. Hoping it's an easy fix :)
(https://i.imgur.com/7lkqTus.jpg)
Thanks, hopefully you can add your comments to my existing thread over at Matrix in technical support.....strength in numbers:)
Grim,
Thought of one more thing. Do you have mouse software running? Software that monitors the mouse battery levels, and allows you to program your buttons. I've had games where this made my mouse act strange, exiting the software when playing that game fixed it for me. It's never happened to me in a wargame, usually happens in FPS games for me but might be worth a try.
Quote from: -budd- on November 19, 2017, 01:18:34 PM
Grim,
Thought of one more thing. Do you have mouse software running? Software that monitors the mouse battery levels, and allows you to program your buttons. I've had games where this made my mouse act strange, exiting the software when playing that game fixed it for me. It's never happened to me in a wargame, usually happens in FPS games for me but might be worth a try.
no i have plain old wired mouse, no special software, nor no battery. i also unplugged all devices.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
no i have plain old wired mouse.
+1. That's what I use on my desktop and my laptop, wired lasermice...bzzzzzz..... And I have2 or three extra, in case they are outlawed!
Quote from: solops on November 19, 2017, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
no i have plain old wired mouse.
+1. That's what I use on my desktop and my laptop, wired lasermice...bzzzzzz..... And I have2 or three extra, in case they are outlawed!
Just don't point them at the aircraft counters.
Will this release this on Steam I wonder?
Quote from: Tactical Wargamer on November 19, 2017, 06:40:34 PM
Will this release this on Steam I wonder?
Not like it is, I hope. This is a grognard's WARgame, a boargame conversion of the grandest style, so to speak. The UI, even with the improvements, is not the slick, spoon-fed stuff younger gamers are used to. The Steam crowd would throw a hissy fit.
I love this game.
Quote from: bobarossa on November 19, 2017, 03:25:56 PM
Quote from: solops on November 19, 2017, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
no i have plain old wired mouse.
+1. That's what I use on my desktop and my laptop, wired lasermice...bzzzzzz..... And I have2 or three extra, in case they are outlawed!
Just don't point them at the aircraft counters.
What? This just flew by everyone's radar? :DD
Quote from: Ubercat on November 19, 2017, 07:47:18 PM
Quote from: bobarossa on November 19, 2017, 03:25:56 PM
Quote from: solops on November 19, 2017, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
no i have plain old wired mouse.
+1. That's what I use on my desktop and my laptop, wired lasermice...bzzzzzz..... And I have2 or three extra, in case they are outlawed!
Just don't point them at the aircraft counters.
What? This just flew by everyone's radar? :DD
I love my old, wired air-defense laser-mice.
Anyone know how to get the Marines off their starting position in the Tarawa scenario? I've tried the Matrix forums, but looks like nobody there knows either.
Quote from: IronX on November 19, 2017, 08:11:22 PM
Anyone know how to get the Marines off their starting position in the Tarawa scenario? I've tried the Matrix forums, but looks like nobody there knows either.
Turn 5 you can board ships and away you go. The first turns you get to watch your air force pound the island.
Cool, thanks.
I know the map says something about not being able to move for a turn, so I waited for three hoping something would happen. Perhaps I missed five turns in the briefing notes somewhere.
Anyway, off to retake the atol!
in the turn report you'll see you have sea lift capacity and then you can right click on stacks and board ships.
It would be worth seeing this release on Steam just for the hilarious reviews that would ensue.
Quote from: solops on November 19, 2017, 06:59:06 PM
Quote from: Tactical Wargamer on November 19, 2017, 06:40:34 PM
Will this release this on Steam I wonder?
Not like it is, I hope. This is a grognard's WARgame, a boargame conversion of the grandest style, so to speak. The UI, even with the improvements, is not the slick, spoon-fed stuff younger gamers are used to. The Steam crowd would throw a hissy fit.
I love this game.
Do you reckon its up to the job of attracting the WitE?WitW crowd?
is there a detailed scenario list or spreadsheet with map-size, map(hex) scale, time scale, unit-scale, and number of turns?
Quote from: IronX on November 19, 2017, 08:11:22 PM
Anyone know how to get the Marines off their starting position in the Tarawa scenario? I've tried the Matrix forums, but looks like nobody there knows either.
Do the Japanese in that scenario look just like the Marines? I hope they fixed that problem in the Iwo Jima scenario. #:-)
They look quite different to me. I assume they addressed the issue.
(https://i.imgur.com/BQrFBGh.jpg)
Edit: Image edited to avoid spoiler
Edit 2: While the Japanese and Marines are different in Tarawa, they are pretty much the same in the Iwo Jima scenario:
(https://i.imgur.com/qcWcWBe.jpg)
Here, the Japanese have the yellow lemon-colored identifier.
Quote from: IronX on November 20, 2017, 11:32:22 AM
They look quite different to me. I assume they addressed the issue.
(https://i.imgur.com/BQrFBGh.jpg)
Edit: Image edited to avoid spoiler
This may be the game that gets me back into wargaming. I think I'm going to buy it when I get home
Im hoping I get my manual soon. I had no idea how deep and complex this game was. I had always assumed it was simplified so it could be used for different eras. I have no idea what I am doing and would really like to have the manual here while I play. Too hard to reference the ebook on my phone
Quote from: mikeck on November 21, 2017, 11:47:08 AM
Im hoping I get my manual soon. I had no idea how deep and complex this game was. I had always assumed it was simplified so it could be used for different eras. I have no idea what I am doing and would really like to have the manual here while I play. Too hard to reference the ebook on my phone
I've found the tutorials to be helpful.
Oberst Klink is updating his Tutorial'41 for TOAW4, it comes with some excellent slides as how everything goes together. Check it out at their Mods forum.
I found the Iwo Jima scenario to be a good one to get into the game. It's not too long or too large and gives you some time with amphib, naval, air and land units.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
Quote from: -budd- on November 19, 2017, 01:18:34 PM
Grim,
Thought of one more thing. Do you have mouse software running? Software that monitors the mouse battery levels, and allows you to program your buttons. I've had games where this made my mouse act strange, exiting the software when playing that game fixed it for me. It's never happened to me in a wargame, usually happens in FPS games for me but might be worth a try.
no i have plain old wired mouse, no special software, nor no battery. i also unplugged all devices.
Hey Grim - is your issue sorted yet?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 21, 2017, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
Quote from: -budd- on November 19, 2017, 01:18:34 PM
Grim,
Thought of one more thing. Do you have mouse software running? Software that monitors the mouse battery levels, and allows you to program your buttons. I've had games where this made my mouse act strange, exiting the software when playing that game fixed it for me. It's never happened to me in a wargame, usually happens in FPS games for me but might be worth a try.
no i have plain old wired mouse, no special software, nor no battery. i also unplugged all devices.
Hey Grim - is your issue sorted yet?
Nope and a few others have reported the same thing....not sure what is up, typically don't have issues like this but doesn't seem widespread (at least not a lot of people reporting it). Lucky me:(
Is anyone playing this? Any impressions, especially on what's different from TOAW 2/3?
It's awfully quiet in here. I thought this game would make the community buzz.
That's bad there's no fix for your issue GR...makes me wonder if I should get it - especially given I've already got issues with one of their games.
Waiting for a Steam release. I may wait forever, but I've got plenty of other games to play.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 23, 2017, 01:18:51 PM
It's awfully quiet in here. I thought this game would make the community buzz.
That's bad there's no fix for your issue GR...makes me wonder if I should get it - especially given I've already got issues with one of their games.
Well it's not a wide spread issue and every game as one or two people that have issues. If your looking for a reason NOT to buy, then fair enough. But the forums at Matrix and slitherine are very busy and there are many favorable comments. It's TOAW 3 only better. So if you liked that, your golden. I've been playing for 4 days straight and I love it. I had no idea it was so deep and complex. I'm playing a NATOv Warsaw Pact 1988 scenario and love it. Moving troops by helicopters, establishing defensive positions with tactical and artillery support. Air operations, naval operations and even some Nukes when I really start to lose
Truthfully, out side of Issue of backlogging commands a few are having, I honestly haven't seen any reason why someone who enjoys hex based turn based operational wargames wouldn't love this.
Outside of $$$, I don't know why you wouldn't buy
Quote from: mikeck on November 23, 2017, 01:39:43 PM
Outside of $$$, I don't know why you wouldn't buy
The dozens of other games I own that are waiting to be played ;)
Quote from: mikeck on November 23, 2017, 01:39:43 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 23, 2017, 01:18:51 PM
It's awfully quiet in here. I thought this game would make the community buzz.
That's bad there's no fix for your issue GR...makes me wonder if I should get it - especially given I've already got issues with one of their games.
Well it's not a wide spread issue and every game as one or two people that have issues. If your looking for a reason NOT to buy, then fair enough. But the forums at Matrix and slitherine are very busy and there are many favorable comments. It's TOAW 3 only better. So if you liked that, your golden. I've been playing for 4 days straight and I love it. I had no idea it was so deep and complex. I'm playing a NATOv Warsaw Pact 1988 scenario and love it. Moving troops by helicopters, establishing defensive positions with tactical and artillery support. Air operations, naval operations and even some Nukes when I really start to lose
Truthfully, out side of Issue of backlogging commands a few are having, I honestly haven't seen any reason why someone who enjoys hex based turn based operational wargames wouldn't love this.
Outside of $$$, I don't know why you wouldn't buy
My only point was I'm already experiencing an issue with another Matrix game - how would I feel having a £60 game I can't play.
I might buy it on Steam to see if it works and if it does, get a refund and buy from Matrix (as I would like the manual). Not the best use of the refund option, but it'll help me make my mind up
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 23, 2017, 01:18:51 PM
It's awfully quiet in here. I thought this game would make the community buzz.
That's bad there's no fix for your issue GR...makes me wonder if I should get it - especially given I've already got issues with one of their games.
yep i am disappointed but so far only a few of us reported.....so you certainly could be good.
It has been a while, but I've started documenting my AAR for TOAWIV. No wonder I couldn't get on with TOAWIII very well, I didn't understand the fundamentals of its time based rounds per turn. I'm trying to now, looking at WWI battle Cambrai, since its on its centenary this week.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-setup/
Quote from: spelk on November 24, 2017, 09:39:22 AM
It has been a while, but I've started documenting my AAR for TOAWIV. No wonder I couldn't get on with TOAWIII very well, I didn't understand the fundamentals of its time based rounds per turn. I'm trying to now, looking at WWI battle Cambrai, since its on its centenary this week.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-setup/ (http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-setup/)
very nice O0
Beta patch available. Details here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4385645
With this patch, my zooming seems improved, although still a little jittery on the mouse clicks.....we'll see if it lasts but hopefully promising
Combat Planner so much better too.
Question for you WW1 fans. Compared to all the other WW1 games, how does TOAW do in the WW1 scenarios? Do you guys find the 1914 scenarios in particular to be realistic?
I played the heck out of the West Front 1914 scenarios in both TOAW III and the Strat Command: Breakthrough games. I actually found the TOAW more enjoyable and more how I would expect it to play out.
Quote from: spelk on November 24, 2017, 09:39:22 AM
It has been a while, but I've started documenting my AAR for TOAWIV. No wonder I couldn't get on with TOAWIII very well, I didn't understand the fundamentals of its time based rounds per turn. I'm trying to now, looking at WWI battle Cambrai, since its on its centenary this week.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-setup/
Turn 1
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-turn-1/
Hells Bells, i forgot just how much effort it takes to write these things up!! I hope someone gets something out of it.
Quote from: spelk on November 27, 2017, 07:35:02 AM
Quote from: spelk on November 24, 2017, 09:39:22 AM
It has been a while, but I've started documenting my AAR for TOAWIV. No wonder I couldn't get on with TOAWIII very well, I didn't understand the fundamentals of its time based rounds per turn. I'm trying to now, looking at WWI battle Cambrai, since its on its centenary this week.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-setup/
Turn 1
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-turn-1/
Hells Bells, i forgot just how much effort it takes to write these things up!! I hope someone gets something out of it.
good stuff. lots of info to digest! are the maps topographical? you mentioned bourlon being important because it was high ground but is there any way for me to know that unless ive been there? is elevation represented in the combat, movement etc?? im sure there are some scenarios involving mountain combat or plains. hopefully those things are taken into consideration. thanks and look forward to turn 2!
I'm not sure about the maps being topographical, I got the high ground information from the Cambrai video in the Setup. Historically they never made it up to Bourlon. I've searched the manual for "Elevation" or "Height" and they're not mentioned in any context about the games maps.
Quote from: spelk on November 27, 2017, 07:35:02 AM
Hells Bells, i forgot just how much effort it takes to write these things up!! I hope someone gets something out of it.
It's an excellent AAR. I'm enjoying it very much O0
Yep, me too. :bd:
Indeed, very high quality blog, spelk. Well done!
A damned fine AAR Spelk. And, I might add, masterful planning. O0
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 27, 2017, 11:47:32 AM
A damned fine AAR Spelk. And, I might add, masterful planning. O0
I wish I knew what I was doing :)
I just throw all in.
I haven't found a way to cancel the planner easily. Even if I stack something up to see what is happening, figure too many pips, pressing Esc still leaves the attack planned. I seem to have to go to each Unit stack and select either Cancel Group Attack, or Cycle through specific units and Select Cancel Single attack. I must be doing something wrong there.. probably more manual reading..
Thanks for all the kind words folks. I wish I could do video AARs with any conviction, but I'm better at laying down my thoughts where I can edit them afterwards than try to babble them out real time. :)
Quote from: spelk on November 27, 2017, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 27, 2017, 11:47:32 AM
A damned fine AAR Spelk. And, I might add, masterful planning. O0
I wish I knew what I was doing :)
I just throw all in.
I haven't found a way to cancel the planner easily. Even if I stack something up to see what is happening, figure too many pips, pressing Esc still leaves the attack planned. I seem to have to go to each Unit stack and select either Cancel Group Attack, or Cycle through specific units and Select Cancel Single attack. I must be doing something wrong there.. probably more manual reading..
Saw this on the Matrix forum:
To easily cancel an attack, right-click one of the attacking units, and choose the "cancel all" option.
^that's some good intel!
I can't find anything in the manual about SUPPLY except a little in the scenario creation section. I can't believe there isn't any description of how supply works but I don't see it. Regardless, I have a lot of units at 1% supply and I don't know why
Can any of you point me to a post, video or section in the manual that explains it?
Quote from: bbmike on November 27, 2017, 12:12:50 PM
Saw this on the Matrix forum:
To easily cancel an attack, right-click one of the attacking units, and choose the "cancel all" option.
I thought I tried that, and it cancelled ALL the other planned attacks, rather than just the one I created (in trial & error).
I'll give it another go and see. Thanks bbmike.
Section 9.1.7 (pages 55-61) of the manual describes how supply works. Terrain has a lot to do with supply movement - the more dense it is, the slower supply moves - as do demolished bridges. Constant attacking also consumes supply (9.1.7.5). An adjacent HQ will increase resupply by 50%, so if possible, move those with little supply next to a HQ and have them 'rest'.
Quote from: IronX on November 27, 2017, 12:35:58 PM
Section 9.1.7 (pages 55-61) of the manual describes how supply works. Terrain has a lot to do with supply movement - the more dense it is, the slower supply moves - as do demolished bridges. Constant attacking also consumes supply (9.1.7.5). An adjacent HQ will increase resupply by 50%, so if possible, move those with little supply next to a HQ and have them 'rest'.
Thank you. I have the pdf version on my phone and I didn't see supply anywhere in the table of contents
You're right. I guess because it's a passive activity it's not highlighted in the contents list.
I'm still struggling to understand HQ usage and will have to re-read those bits in the manual. To me, they don't seem to be as intrinsic to game play as they are in GG's War in the West. Other than the resupply bonus mentioned above, I'm not sure what they do.
Quote from: IronX on November 27, 2017, 01:25:29 PM
You're right. I guess because it's a passive activity it's not highlighted in the contents list.
I'm still struggling to understand HQ usage and will have to re-read those bits in the manual. To me, they don't seem to be as intrinsic to game play as they are in GG's War in the West. Other than the resupply bonus mentioned above, I'm not sure what they do.
No definitely not as important as in WITE. There is no hierarchy to speak of out side a formation. Something that I always found off putting. They have some effects but is a little convoluted. Having need them adjacent always struck me as a bit silly and an afterthought. Other than the supply thing I know they do other things but still trying to figure what precisely.
Quote from: spelk on November 27, 2017, 12:19:38 PM
Quote from: bbmike on November 27, 2017, 12:12:50 PM
Saw this on the Matrix forum:
To easily cancel an attack, right-click one of the attacking units, and choose the "cancel all" option.
I thought I tried that, and it cancelled ALL the other planned attacks, rather than just the one I created (in trial & error).
I'll give it another go and see. Thanks bbmike.
In the right-click menu here should be options to cancel single unit, group, or all units attack, basically the same options as when ordering an attack.
From my memory of TOAW III and only a limited time with IV...
These are the functions of HQ units:
Supply distribution
Enable Support and Cooperation in combat
Reorganization ability
Formation/Unit proficiency
Disengagement ability
Organic artillery support in battles
Readiness impact
Some (or maybe most) of these might have to be set in scenario editing. I don't remember. But I know supply is usually a given. I know when I used to play III, I spent a lot of time before battle looking at and organizing formations with HQs. I makes a difference.
After a scan of the manual, it appears that they have a very limited role in the game other than as a supply distributor, although "In some Scenarios, they also provide command functions" and "automatically support Cooperative friendly units within their Bombardment range" (8.3).
Helping units reorganize; having an effect on formation proficiency (9.1.10); and acting as a beacon for retreating units (13.14) seem to be other functions.
In some scenarios (ME, 1973) the Israelis don't have HQs, which apprently is a good thing as they can't be destroyed and therefore have a negative effect on some units (18.10.5).
Steve Sill has a few TOAWIII videos up that I presume are fairly applicable.
Here's his Supply one:
Oh and this:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4387818
Dastactic has started a video AAR of TOAWIV
Wonder why it isn't on steam?
I thought Matrix didn't put its releases like this on to Steam until a lot later in its lifecycle.
The Battle of Cambrai 1917 - Turn 2 is now up!
http://sugarfreegamer.com/toawiv-the-battle-of-cambrai-1917-turn-2/
Quote from: spelk on December 02, 2017, 07:18:20 AM
The Battle of Cambrai 1917 - Turn 2 is now up!...
Thanks for the AAR. I still have my old copy of To the Green Fields Beyond around here somewhere. Might have to take it out and play it one more time. :)
Is that the old SPI game?
Yup. I saw the TOAW IV scenario designer used it to make his scenario.
Edit - Found what looks like an updated copy on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/EXCAL-Fields-Beyond-Battle-Cambrai/dp/B007A63932 Don't know any more than that though.
I remember when it came out. Must have been the mid-late 1970's
£18 for shipping - pffft.
Quote
We're sorry to inform you of a delay in shipping your The Operational Art of War IV hard copy.
When chasing our supplier for the books, we found they had forgotten to inform us the ship had departed later than scheduled. As a result we are not yet able to dispatch your hard copy. We're very sorry for this late notice but we have only just been made aware. Our current estimate shipping dates are
US & Canada - 8th December
Europe & Rest of the World - 18th December
We're very sorry for the delay.
Regards,
The Slitherine & Matrix team
...at least you can read the hardcopy under the Christmastree :)
(the pdf is free, even for notyet customers in the Matrix forum, IIRC)
Quote from: MikeGER on December 05, 2017, 05:13:05 AM
...at least you can read the hardcopy under the Christmastree :)
(the pdf is free, even for notyet customers in the Matrix forum, IIRC)
Oh I've got the PDF. But I didn't buy the book - at an extra £30 - so I could read a PDF :crazy2:
Was that the Titanic or the Mayflower it was coming on? #:-)
Lusitania?
Edmund Fitzgerald?
S.S. Minnow?
CSS Hunley?
Lets put it this way - I'll be surprised if it's here by Christmas if it's being dispatched (estimated) on the 18th :DD
Hope it wasn't coming via Argentine submarine. :hide:
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 05, 2017, 07:32:03 PM
Hope it wasn't coming via Argentine submarine. :hide:
ouch that is a little harsh under the circumstances
Apologies extended to those offended, Argentines or otherwise.
This is a great game. Playing North Africa '40 as the Commonwealth currently.
Quote from: W8taminute on December 17, 2017, 08:55:46 AM
This is a great game. Playing North Africa '40 as the Commonwealth currently.
+1 Awesome game. One minor quibble...the age of rifles senarios like Shiloh use the ww2 sound effects when units move. With fog of war on you can hear the enemy cavalry approaching but with the sound of clanking tank treads. I wish they would change this.
Damn Jeb Stuart and his light tanks!
Was he the one that marched his Nazi troops through the Shenandoah Valley?
Quote from: mirth on December 17, 2017, 12:43:33 PM
Damn Jeb Stuart and his light tanks!
Sherman and a few of his tanks would sure botch things up for those boys. It wasn't until recently that I learned that Tecumseh was a loader and not the gunner as originally thought. He preferred discard sabot. Who would have thunk?
I bought this game primarily to play 19th century battles. It SEEMS like the focus of the game is mainly WW2 and later. What is your opinion on how it simulates the battle of Shiloh and maybe other 19th century batles
It wasn't built for 19th century. I think there are statements to that effect in the game and on the forum somewhere. It does a decent job at it, but has some limitations. Don't for get, I think the original name of it was Operation Art of War: 20th Century Warfare or something like that.
I have played Franco-Prussian scenarios with no issues, so I am betting its as much a scenario design issue as anything. There are a million little nuances that come into play when working at the extreme edge of the game's capabilities.
In fact, I just looked at the product page and look what's in the very first part of the description...
" it will make you relive the most iconic battles from the dawn of the 20th Century to modern day, including the ones that never occurred!"
And in the game specs on the same page...
"Period: World War I, World War II, Modern, Inter War Period"
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/product.asp?gid=587
Quote from: mikeck on December 18, 2017, 07:06:12 PM
I bought this game primarily to play 19th century battles. It SEEMS like the focus of the game is mainly WW2 and later. What is your opinion on how it simulates the battle of Shiloh and maybe other 19th century batles
I agree, game is not really good at 19th century.
So, I am patiently waiting for Ezra Sidran's "General Staff"
Ezra goes way back to almost the beginning of PC wargames, so the game has a good pedigree.
It should cover the 18th - 19th centuries well.
We...need...Age...of...Rifles...2! (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Fpics%2Fplease.gif&hash=79b5fa88c4dbd5efb66763bad0d968825be8d4ef)
Don't know - I'm waiting on my printed manual before I get tore in :'(
Well I knew it wasn't designed for 19th century battles when I bought it but my options are limited for that time. So figured I'd give it a shot. I also bought it for the NATO versus Warsaw Pact scenarios.
Sorry to tell you this Dredd but if it was coming on the H.M.S. Bounty, there was a little trouble......
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 19, 2017, 11:29:22 AM
Sorry to tell you this Dredd but if it was coming on the H.M.S. Bounty, there was a little trouble......
:'(
Looks like I won't have it by Christmas :'(
Quote
This was shipped to you on December 20, 2017 7:25:31 AM to the following address:
...
The items you ordered were shipped to you by DHL Paket International and should arrive before January 1, 2018.
should...........
nice
Maybe he should have gone with the Bounty.
hes Scottish, if its not there on the 1st that orange glow on the horizon is Matrix HQ burning down
lol. More disappointed than mad really. It would've been nice to have that big manual for the Christmas break
But yeah...fuck it...burn it
It arrived. Manual was worth the wait. O0
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 29, 2017, 01:27:59 AM
It arrived. Manual was worth the wait. O0
You enjoying the game Judge?
I've not played it yet FJ. I've been holding out for the manual. I loved III so I'll be surprised if I don't like this one
The manual is great. I ordered mine on 12/16 and I was surprised when it arrived on 12/22. I think that I spent more time editing scenarios in III than playing them.
JD...can you post some pics of the manual...like, every page, in .pdf format. Thanks.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:15:09 AM
JD...can you post some pics of the manual...like, every page, in .pdf format. Thanks.
Full manual here:)
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/Operational_Art_of_War_manual.pdf
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 29, 2017, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:15:09 AM
JD...can you post some pics of the manual...like, every page, in .pdf format. Thanks.
Full manual here:)
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/Operational_Art_of_War_manual.pdf
The hard copy is identical to the digital copy?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:28:06 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 29, 2017, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:15:09 AM
JD...can you post some pics of the manual...like, every page, in .pdf format. Thanks.
Full manual here:)
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/Operational_Art_of_War_manual.pdf
The hard copy is identical to the digital copy?
I thought it was...but I guess JD can confirm that for us.
I checked both the hard copy and the .pdf posted above and they seem to be identical. Whatever is on a certain page in one is on that same page in the other.
For someone who isn't super experienced with these larger war games, would you gents suggest Strategic Command WW2 over TOAW IV for a newb like myself?
:notworthy:
If you are a newb and unwilling or unable to put a little homework into it, I would go with SC. I personally like TOAW a lot better, but I have been playing for 115 years. off and on.
Quote from: RyanE on December 29, 2017, 03:14:44 PM
If you are a newb and unwilling or unable to put a little homework into it, I would go with SC. I personally like TOAW a lot better, but I have been playing for 115 years. off and on.
115 years? Damn, what's your youthful secrets? :))
Thanks, I was kinda of thinking that. Maybe I'll start with SC and if I enjoy that move to TOAW
That wasn't a typo...it feels like 115. There are some easy scenarios in TOAW. Its the details in the UI and behind the scenes that seem to flummox newbs. If you can live with not knowing every detail, TOAW can work.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:15:09 AM
JD...can you post some pics of the manual...like, every page, in .pdf format. Thanks.
erm - no ^-^
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:28:06 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 29, 2017, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 29, 2017, 11:15:09 AM
JD...can you post some pics of the manual...like, every page, in .pdf format. Thanks.
Full manual here:)
http://www.matrixgames.com/amazon/PDF/Operational_Art_of_War_manual.pdf
The hard copy is identical to the digital copy?
As far as I can see, yes