CK2: The Old Gods Interview

[Staggerwing]

AFA Europe goes, the period from the 'Fall of Rome' to the crowning of Charlemagne is usually referred to as the Age of Migration or Migration Period, roughly 300-400 AD to about 800 AD. Another Term oft used is Early Middle Ages.

[Gusington]

I like to call that era 'Bill.' Not the Era of Bill, because that is something else entirely.

[MengJiao]

Are there actual Zoroastrians in this? And can I conceivably recreate the wars between Byzantium and Islam here?

I've got all the mods except Republic and Aztecs.  At the moment the Byzantines are functional and there are Zoroastrians out there
at least in 1066.  Zoroastrian in game terms might cover a lot of mystical millenarians and gnostics like Mandeans or whoever it was
that (Nestorians, maybe) who (oh that who) made the Book of the Giants the most widely translated book of the 8th century.

The Old Gods DLC should make it somewhat easier to be a Zoroastrian, though of course they aren't any more "pagan" (indeed, perhaps technically less so) than say A Christian in 9th century Fance.

[Rayfer]

AFA Europe goes, the period from the 'Fall of Rome' to the crowning of Charlemagne is usually referred to as the Age of Migration or Migration Period, roughly 300-400 AD to about 800 AD. Another Term oft used is Early Middle Ages.

What's wrong with 'Dark Age'....works just fine for me, and from what I have read it was, indeed, a pretty dark time for most people living in Europe.  Giving something a new name doesn't change it....like when they said Pluto wasn't a planet anymore, it didn't change a thing at all about Pluto.   

[MengJiao]

AFA Europe goes, the period from the 'Fall of Rome' to the crowning of Charlemagne is usually referred to as the Age of Migration or Migration Period, roughly 300-400 AD to about 800 AD. Another Term oft used is Early Middle Ages.

What's wrong with 'Dark Age'....works just fine for me, and from what I have read it was, indeed, a pretty dark time for most people living in Europe.  Giving something a new name doesn't change it....like when they said Pluto wasn't a planet anymore, it didn't change a thing at all about Pluto.

Four things seem to characterize periods labled as "Dark Ages":

1) a drop in specialized production (eg. elite goods for long-range trade, mass-produced pottery, metals in transport configurations)
2) a drop in whatever records we can currently read
3) a drop in identifably elite activities such as tombs, elite burials, palaces, stelle, temples, sacrifices, votive offerings, inscriptions
4) a drop in chronological controls of the more traditional kind from our point of view

There is a general supposition of drops in population, but that usually turns out to be a function of how the 4 other markers are interpreted.

It is at least a strong possibility that Dark Ages were less stressful for the average person than periods of Imperial Expansion or the High Classic Maya or whatever is picked as being non-Dark.

On the other hand, I really love the term "Dark Age" as long as people keep their problematic nature in mind.

In terms of CKII, 867 AD is well out of what is classically considered "Dark Age"...I guess because it comes after the Carolingian Renaissance -- which banished barbarous thoughts to the edge of Christendom or something.

[Nefaro]

Are there actual Zoroastrians in this? And can I conceivably recreate the wars between Byzantium and Islam here?

I thought they said they were in. But then again, there was some strange discussion about this. Also, having the "Dark Ages" (we don't call them that anymore, professionally) in the game will be loads of fun! I look forward to recreating the creation of Normandy!

SoM, what is the professional term for this period of "turning away from science" now?

It wasn't really "turning away from science" either.  Pretty much just the western Roman empire dissolving into mostly small feuding warlords being the reason for the term 'Dark Ages'.

I believe "the Middle Ages" is the commonly used term?

[MengJiao]

Are there actual Zoroastrians in this? And can I conceivably recreate the wars between Byzantium and Islam here?

I thought they said they were in. But then again, there was some strange discussion about this. Also, having the "Dark Ages" (we don't call them that anymore, professionally) in the game will be loads of fun! I look forward to recreating the creation of Normandy!

SoM, what is the professional term for this period of "turning away from science" now?

It wasn't really "turning away from science" either.  Pretty much just the western Roman empire dissolving into mostly small feuding warlords being the reason for the term 'Dark Ages'.

I believe "the Middle Ages" is the commonly used term?

For western Europe, at some point "Late Antiquity" shades into the "Early Middle Ages" (AKA "Dark Age").  There's a definite drop in source material somewhere in that time between about 500 AD and 800 AD and it seems people could not secure good manuscript collections in the 650-750 period (Isadore of Seville to Venerable Bede), and the compilation of universal histories stopped from about 650 to 850 (Isadore to Rabannus Marus).  But for actual fragmentation of authority, that peaked a bit after 1000 AD and triggered "Peace" movements, Communes and so on.  But by say 1050, everybody had pulled themselves together to some degree.  England and the HRE formed large bureaucratic states and things began to look like the political world we still have.  Note that the worst political fragmentation doesn't happen in the Dark Ages, but within the period that the Old Gods mod will cover (ie after 867 and before 1066).

Of course in the Levant, there is no Dark Age -- the Eastern Empire trundles on, the Persian Empire mostly turns to Islam and the Book of the Giants (for example) is propagated across all the routes that esoteric religions (everybody from Zoroastrians to Nestorians to Buddhists) took -- plenty of manuscripts and universal histories out there (all the way to China).

[MengJiao]

I like to call that era 'Bill.' Not the Era of Bill, because that is something else entirely.

Ah, bill.  For me my latest run of CKII has been the Age of Daughters.  6 or 8 mastermind theologian daughters in a row and my
boy is wroth and I don't blame him.

[son_of_montfort]

Sorry I missed this conversation. From 200-500AD is Late Antiquity and from 500-~800 is Early Middle Ages. This is pretty much the universal designation although the year ranges are debated. From around 900-1100 is the High Middle Ages and 1200-1400 is the Later Middle Ages, although from ~1320-1500 is also called the Renaissance.

[Bison]

Can we please just return to calling it the Dark Ages.  Late Antiquity should be between the height of Greek cities states and their being crushed by Rome.

[Staggerwing]

It wasn't any darker than before or after, sunlight per square foot anyways.

[Bison]

It was warmer though....

[Staggerwing]

Especially if some Carolingian thugs set your Saxon village on fire.

[Bison]

Man those were the days.

[MetalDog]

Can we please just return to calling it the Dark Ages.  Late Antiquity should be between the height of Greek cities states and their being crushed by Rome.

Totally agree with that.  And I always thought it was ironic that the Greeks taught the Romans everything they knew before hand.