Let's Talk: Wargame or Not

[Grimnirsson]

But requiring that those units have six sides?  Seems silly to me.

It is silly. There are numerous area movement and point to point movement wargames out there, no?

[Bison]

I don't think that hexes are a requirement to determine a wargame.   I think they are as has been stated a function method of area demarcation and a means to facilitate facing.  I'm sure there are some other logics that can be assigned to the functionality of a hex.

[jomni]

proposal to solve the FPS vs wargame dilemma ?
(turnbased games excluded)

If you can only direct (regardless of the view)  one 'Item' (maybe switch between 'roles' in certain situations, but its mainly only one 'item')  to drive the conflict forward... its not a wargame  (so CoD disqualifies, also all kind of Arcades games, those can be 'crude' simulations.. like Battlezone, Red Baron, StarWars)

If you can direct several 'items' (give orders, influence there ROE, etc) at once, its a wargame.
(so Arma qualifies, you can direct unit on the map and also the AI team-members)

so the DCS World has expanded from a flight-simulation to become a wargame when you were able to not just command your single air asset, but also direct other forces on the F10 map, right ?     

Then Brothers in Arms is a wargame!  You are a single player, at the same time you command your squad.  This includes Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six...

[Gusington]

How about the Battlestations games? Midway, Pacific, etc?

[Barthheart]

Barth,

Not quite, I like FPS games, I suck at them but I like playing them. Still not a wargame.

You just state that it is so. We are discussing to find some specific aspects to define a wargame. I have given some why I think it is a wargame :)

;D

True...  ;) I'm trying to come up with something smart but all I got so far is a feeling... :P

Like I said, to me, VG's Ambush is a wargame. You have a set of units, individual men in this case. You have a set objective for the scenario. You are armed with weapons and plan to use them to further your goals. Very much a wargame.

So why doesn't Arma II feel like a wargame? To me it's a different mind set that I have while playing the game. Even though I'll try using some of the exact same tactics in each , the FPS is just not wargamey....  ???

[Bison]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

[Barthheart]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

Yeah for sure! Flight sims are ... well... simulations and not wargames. For me FPS fall into this category. Thanks Bison for that nudge.

[Bison]

How about the Battlestations games? Midway, Pacific, etc?

No.

[Grimnirsson]

Then Brothers in Arms is a wargame!  You are a single player, at the same time you command your squad.  This includes Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six...

Sure, Brothers in Arms and especially the older GR and R6 games where you actually have command over your troops are tactical shooters and therefore wargames.

How about the Battlestations games? Midway, Pacific, etc?

Absolutely, they may not be simulations regarding every vehicle in the game because of the more arcade nature of their handling, but you get to command your troops within the strategic/operational setting of a war situation.

[jomni]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

Yeah for sure! Flight sims are ... well... simulations and not wargames. For me FPS fall into this category. Thanks Bison for that nudge.

Then first person perspective makes it a simulation (if reality is depicted adequately).

[bayonetbrant]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

I don't think so





much more here
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/03/battle-lab-games-and-sims-for-training.html

[bayonetbrant]

damn, those images came out a lot larger than I'd intended.  Sorry.

[Bison]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

Yeah for sure! Flight sims are ... well... simulations and not wargames. For me FPS fall into this category. Thanks Bison for that nudge.

Then first person perspective makes it a simulation (if reality is depicted adequately).

I could quite readily agree with this.

[Grimnirsson]

Flight sims are ... well... simulations and not wargames. For me FPS fall into this category.

I don't get this, actually. There are of course Flight Sims that are just that - simulators/simulations of planes but the game does not put the plane or the player into a situation of warfare. So they are sims but not wargames. FPS usually have a war setting and qualify because of that as a wargame. They may be sims or arcade shooters and fall into a different category then, but they are part of the overall wargame term. Imho, of course, all imho :P

[bayonetbrant]

if it's not competitive, it's not a game.  it can be realistic (and therefore considered a "simulation"), but it's not a game.